richnrg
Well-Known Member
so the whole media has the same agenda?
so the whole media has the same agenda?..Yes Millwall have a bad rep for violance and rightly so but the whole media biased against the club and most recently them not taking knee gesture is used to provoke a reaction that suits their agenda
Erm
Millwall fined £10,000 for supporters’ racist chanting at Everton FA Cup tie
Millwall have been fined £10,000 and ordered to implement an ‘action plan’ over alleged racist chanting by supporters at their FA Cup match against Everton last seasonwww.google.co.uk
Tottenham 'condemn' alleged racist chants
Tottenham Hotspur have "strongly condemned" alleged racist chanting by Millwall supporters in Sunday's FA Cup quarterfinal.www.espn.com
Hi Solo, thank you for your well written and reasoned summary of your club and it’s history. However there is a long-standing problem with your club and Racism, the Far Right and Violence. I do wonder how seriously the club want to tackle this issue.
There does seem to be a tacit acceptance of having the “no one likes us” status which means the extreme elements are glossed over.
When our players take the knee on Saturday , inevitably there will be a massive round of booing from your supporters. You know there will. The club could have used this as an opportunity to change attitudes but seem to be too comfortable with this behaviour. Our fans actually clap when both teams take the knee now (I’m not at all complacent about our club though and know it’s an ongoing battle)
I do think you make a great point about a club having a bad name and therefore things that happen everywhere are amplified because it is Millwall. Unfortunately the only answer is to work twice as hard to convince people otherwise and I’m not sure that is happening.
Hi Solo, thank you for your well written and reasoned summary of your club and it’s history. However there is a long-standing problem with your club and Racism, the Far Right and Violence. I do wonder how seriously the club want to tackle this issue.
There does seem to be a tacit acceptance of having the “no one likes us” status which means the extreme elements are glossed over.
When our players take the knee on Saturday , inevitably there will be a massive round of booing from your supporters. You know there will. The club could have used this as an opportunity to change attitudes but seem to be too comfortable with this behaviour. Our fans actually clap when both teams take the knee now (I’m not at all complacent about our club though and know it’s an ongoing battle)
I do think you make a great point about a club having a bad name and therefore things that happen everywhere are amplified because it is Millwall. Unfortunately the only answer is to work twice as hard to convince people otherwise and I’m not sure that is happening.
Hi Solo, thank you for your well written and reasoned summary of your club and it’s history. However there is a long-standing problem with your club and Racism, the Far Right and Violence. I do wonder how seriously the club want to tackle this issue.
There does seem to be a tacit acceptance of having the “no one likes us” status which means the extreme elements are glossed over.
When our players take the knee on Saturday , inevitably there will be a massive round of booing from your supporters. You know there will. The club could have used this as an opportunity to change attitudes but seem to be too comfortable with this behaviour. Our fans actually clap when both teams take the knee now (I’m not at all complacent about our club though and know it’s an ongoing battle)
I do think you make a great point about a club having a bad name and therefore things that happen everywhere are amplified because it is Millwall. Unfortunately the only answer is to work twice as hard to convince people otherwise and I’m not sure that is happening.
Again, I have to take issue with some of these statements (bolded).
According to who though? Because whilst I agree that there are racist Millwall fans, just as there are racist Coventry City (or simply insert any club here) fans, I would argue that it is not something that runs through the club or fanbase, which 'long-standing problem with your club and Racism, the Far Right' implies it is.
Please try to hear me out on this, as I have signed up in good faith using my Google account. So, I am not trying to hide behind a persona or agenda.
Firstly, you will have noticed that I did not bold the 'violence' part of your assessment. That is because I cannot deny that Millwall FC has a long-standing association with football violence. In fact, it goes right back to the late 1890s and the arrival of a local rival on the scene, Thames Ironworks (West Ham United). Both clubs drew their support from London's tough docklands communities and sometimes tempers frayed. Indeed, The East Ham Echo reported in the 1906/07 season that "From the very first kick it was seen that there was likely to be some trouble. All attempts at football were ignored." Going on to explain how the violence spread to the crowd.
Millwall has also drawn much of its support from the London Docklands - Millwall, Stepney, Wapping, Bermondsey, Rotherhithe and Deptford. As well as other areas that the Old Kent Road (made famous by monopoly, as well as its criminals, bank robbers and boxers) snakes through and past, such as New Cross, Camberwell, Peckham, Walworth and Elephant & Castle. And therefore, is has always had a rough and ready support. This culture has also attracted some of the more interesting characters living in the above areas over the years. There is a reason that Charlton Athletic, playing a mere 4 miles down the road from The Den, are known as a nice, family club, even a little bit twee - and it is because people from SE London knew that is you enjoyed a rough crowd and even a bit of aggro Cold Blow Lane was the place to head. But if you preferred a more sedate Saturday afternoon, relaxing on a vast terrace and simply enjoying the football, then The Valley was more for you.
It is now very difficult for the club to escape its reputation and it has become a bit of a self-fulling prophecy. Wherever Millwall go, every local nutter wanting bragging rights in his local pub will come out to have a pop at the 'famous' Millwall. A visit from Millwall has the ability to turn even the sleepiest of clubs and towns into mini Istanbuls. I have seen pubs in places like Norwich, Watford, Reading, Swindon and Southend empty with pumped up local heroes frothing at the mouth to slap a few Millwall fans around (funny enough, something joked about in this or the Millwall match day thread - cannot remember which). Now, my best mate is a Forest fan and I have attended Forest away games with him in London and the south before, if I have had a free weekend and despite being a much bigger club than Millwall, with a much larger away support, I have yet to experience the same welcome for them. I imagine little things do happen, but I have never been to Watford or Reading and seen their fans actively seeking out to attack travelling Forest fans. But I have with Millwall. Which has created the 'No One Likes Us, We Don't Care' siege mentality amongst our support. When Millwall travel we tend to only take a support made of mostly men, aged 18-50, because of all I have outlined above. And as the club has had very limited footballing success (just 2 seasons of topflight football), the support hasn't been diluted by 'new' football types, i.e., middle-class families etc. It is the sons and grandsons of the stevedores and factory workers of yore, told to 'hit them back' if anyone brings them trouble from the age of 4. Indeed, if you look at our support today, you'll see it made up of the people that keep London going, the scaffolders, roofers, brickies, binmen, rail workers etc. So, this feeds into that culture and so it goes on and on.
The reason I am giving all this context is because I believe this association with violence has gone a long way to stain the club's reputation in other dark areas, such as racism. Millwall FC has always been the closest club to England's national media. After all, it is London's most inn-city club and just over the river from The City. I think it has been very easy over the years for the media to create the narrative that Millwall = hooligans; hooligans = racists. Now, whilst this argument has some merit for clubs like Chelsea and Leeds United, it does not really stand up to scrutiny at Millwall. This is because some of Millwall's most infamous hooligans have been of Black or Asian ethnicity. Unlike at clubs like Chelsea and Leeds, these fans from ethnic minorities were more than just embraced, they were unquestionably part of the Millwall 'family', people you could rely on a dark night in Middlesbrough or as your kid's Godfather. Don't believe me? Look up Tiny at Millwall, or Tamer Hassan or Roland Manookian, as those are just the famous faces of Millwall's diverse support. Away from the hooligans, you will also see that Millwall's own database says that Millwall has one of the highest ratios of season ticket holders and members of ethnic minority backgrounds outside the big PL clubs. Further investigation will also show you that Millwall hooligans fought with National Front recruiters and moved them out of the area, never to return. So, I am particularly horrified that you have linked us to the Far Right. I put the article that documents this at the end of this post.
You ask how seriously Millwall take the issue of violence and race. Well, they took it seriously enough to pioneer the idea of football in the community, way back in the 1980s. Before it was fashionable virtue signalling to allow the likes of Manchester City and their owners of dubious acquired wealth and power to seem like they really do care. This was when Millwall were a Third Division club struggling on crowds of 3-5,000. It must have some effect on us plebs, because despite the fact that some idiots cannot help grabbing all the headlines* Millwall fans have voted a Black player of the Season on nine separate occasions, including a practicing Muslim, starting all the way back with Phil Walker in 1978. The Millwall in the Community scheme is still going strong and is an awarding winning community service that does so much good in the local area and promotes ideas like aspiration and equality, whilst fighting knife crime and gang culture. The club puts a lot of resources into this, and I would bet more in ratio terms than many other clubs.
*Some highlighted the racism at our games v Spurs and Everton. Both incidents were vile and pathetic examples of racial slurs, sung by a minority, in the case of the Everton game the Met estimated c30-50 in a crowd of 16,000 Millwall fans. The Spurs chant was about how many of the hawkers of illegal DVDS in London are of Asian ethnicity with the chant of 'DVD, DVD' aimed at Son, whilst the Everton chant was frankly pathetic 'I'd rather be...'. I cannot deny that those incidents happened, but I would argue that they do not confirm that Millwall FC are a racist institution and that our fanbase is inherently racist. More that they represented the kind of problem the club has with attracting members of society that think racial profiling is simply 'banter'. But Millwall are certainly not alone in that. Nor is football.
As for other things that the club has done to show that they take these issues seriously. Well, they built a million-pound walkway for away fans to be able to attend games at The Den safely. I am not sure if Wolverhampton Wanderers would spend similar on a way for away fans to avoid getting ambushed in the subway near Molineux, as just one example. Millwall also introduced a membership scheme in 2002. Only Millwall members can buy tickets for away games in advance. Costing the club if not money, but vocal support on the road. It will also make home games members only if there is even a hint of intelligence re potential trouble. This does cost the club money and bad will from fans. They will also restrict capacity - we could have sold 4,500 more tickets for games with West Ham, Everton etc. in the past. That includes keeping home areas free, to avoid flash points.
We'll have to agree to disagree about the fans' response to young talented athletes taking 5 seconds (FIVE!) to support a movement that is basically looking for less discrimination in society.Finally, the booing of the knee. I think this is the most difficult one to try and explain. I'll be honest, I am against it. I think the players have made it clear that they don't associate it with the political agenda of the BLM political movement. But many of the Millwall fans that do boo it do. And in the beginning, kneeling was very much tied in with the movement. A movement that those booing Millwall fans saw defacing war memorials around London. Due to the make-up of the area surrounding The Den, many Millwall families have had or having serving members in the British Armed Forces. The club has strong links with local barracks, with British military personnel able to buy discounted tickets to games, plus the club and supporters club raises more funds for the British Legion and other military charities (e.g. Headley Court Military Rehabilitation Centre - which the club dedicated a kit and sales profits to) than any other London club. Millwall has strong links with the 'Kick-it Out' movement (its chair is another Black Millwall fan), and fans feel that is the path that the club should have stayed on and then used to promote equality more with. Rather than associate itself with an act that has been tainted with an association with the political movement that has been gleefully defacing war memorials in London. However, I would much rather we simply let away teams get on with it and refrain from booing. I think raising awareness about inequality is important and more than justified, but I can see why others cannot untangle the gesture from the political movement.
Anyway, I would much rather talk about the football... have a soft spot for Coventry City. Your win over Spurs in the 1987 FA Cup Final is the first non-Millwall match I can vividly recall, plus I liked the fact you had an Elephant on your badge.
Finally, the booing of the knee. I think this is the most difficult one to try and explain. I'll be honest, I am against it. I think the players have made it clear that they don't associate it with the political agenda of the BLM political movement. But many of the Millwall fans that do boo it do. And in the beginning, kneeling was very much tied in with the movement. A movement that those booing Millwall fans saw defacing war memorials around London. Due to the make-up of the area surrounding The Den, many Millwall families have had or having serving members in the British Armed Forces. The club has strong links with local barracks, with British military personnel able to buy discounted tickets to games, plus the club and supporters club raises more funds for the British Legion and other military charities (e.g. Headley Court Military Rehabilitation Centre - which the club dedicated a kit and sales profits to) than any other London club. Millwall has strong links with the 'Kick-it Out' movement (its chair is another Black Millwall fan), and fans feel that is the path that the club should have stayed on and then used to promote equality more with. Rather than associate itself with an act that has been tainted with an association with the political movement that has been gleefully defacing war memorials in London. However, I would much rather we simply let away teams get on with it and refrain from booing. I think raising awareness about inequality is important and more than justified, but I can see why others cannot untangle the gesture from the political movement.
Anyway, I would much rather talk about the football... have a soft spot for Coventry City. Your win over Spurs in the 1987 FA Cup Final is the first non-Millwall match I can vividly recall, plus I liked the fact you had an Elephant on your badge.
Over the years I have heard our own fans chanting racist songs. One of the most common ones was ”oh Birmingham is colourful”
my first encounter with Millwall fans was in Jan 77 in the FA Cup. It was a much anticipated arrival of these mythical creatures from SE London. They didn’t disappoint, had a go in the West End, made their presence felt and lived up to their reputation. I went to the pre season friendly in 85 when Peake lost the captaincy and that was a scary experience, no more than 1500 in the crowd, a 5-1 win, every Millwall fan seemed to know each other and any strangers stood out. I was asked on a few occasions about my residence which happened to be nearby and my favourite Millwall players past and present. Bryan King and John Fashanu, who was making his debut for them. I was asked to offer another option for Fashanu. Les Briley earned me a reprieve. Cold Blow Lane was rightly fearsome.
I saw the video at Albion last weekend and it does seem that they are still active but as Solo suggests are they reactive as their reputation proceeds them?
I went to a top of the table game in 89 between Arsenal and Millwall at Highbury and it seemed that every Millwall fan was game, all dressed in a uniform of sorts and all from a similar demographic, like a Serbian militia recruitment campaign.
We'll have to agree to disagree about the fans' response to young talented athletes taking 5 seconds (FIVE!) to support a movement that is basically looking for less discrimination in society.
Fair fucks to you for coming on here and making your point though.
Back to the reason this forum exists. What's your prediction for tomorrow?
Over the years I have heard our own fans chanting racist songs. One of the most common ones was ”oh Birmingham is colourful”
my first encounter with Millwall fans was in Jan 77 in the FA Cup. It was a much anticipated arrival of these mythical creatures from SE London. They didn’t disappoint, had a go in the West End, made their presence felt and lived up to their reputation. I went to the pre season friendly in 85 when Peake lost the captaincy and that was a scary experience, no more than 1500 in the crowd, a 5-1 win, every Millwall fan seemed to know each other and any strangers stood out. I was asked on a few occasions about my residence which happened to be nearby and my favourite Millwall players past and present. Bryan King and John Fashanu, who was making his debut for them. I was asked to offer another option for Fashanu. Les Briley earned me a reprieve. Cold Blow Lane was rightly fearsome.
I saw the video at Albion last weekend and it does seem that they are still active but as Solo suggests are they reactive as their reputation proceeds them?
I went to a top of the table game in 89 between Arsenal and Millwall at Highbury and it seemed that every Millwall fan was game, all dressed in a uniform of sorts and all from a similar demographic, like a Serbian militia recruitment campaign.
ley mate we also have our fair share of lefty virtual signallers on here who think anyone that doesnt confrm to their own prejudices are racist.Again, I have to take issue with some of these statements (bolded).
According to who though? Because whilst I agree that there are racist Millwall fans, just as there are racist Coventry City (or simply insert any club here) fans, I would argue that it is not something that runs through the club or fanbase, which 'long-standing problem with your club and Racism, the Far Right' implies it is.
Please try to hear me out on this, as I have signed up in good faith using my Google account. So, I am not trying to hide behind a persona or agenda.
Firstly, you will have noticed that I did not bold the 'violence' part of your assessment. That is because I cannot deny that Millwall FC has a long-standing association with football violence. In fact, it goes right back to the late 1890s and the arrival of a local rival on the scene, Thames Ironworks (West Ham United). Both clubs drew their support from London's tough docklands communities and sometimes tempers frayed. Indeed, The East Ham Echo reported in the 1906/07 season that "From the very first kick it was seen that there was likely to be some trouble. All attempts at football were ignored." Going on to explain how the violence spread to the crowd.
Millwall has also drawn much of its support from the London Docklands - Millwall, Stepney, Wapping, Bermondsey, Rotherhithe and Deptford. As well as other areas that the Old Kent Road (made famous by monopoly, as well as its criminals, bank robbers and boxers) snakes through and past, such as New Cross, Camberwell, Peckham, Walworth and Elephant & Castle. And therefore, is has always had a rough and ready support. This culture has also attracted some of the more interesting characters living in the above areas over the years. There is a reason that Charlton Athletic, playing a mere 4 miles down the road from The Den, are known as a nice, family club, even a little bit twee - and it is because people from SE London knew that is you enjoyed a rough crowd and even a bit of aggro Cold Blow Lane was the place to head. But if you preferred a more sedate Saturday afternoon, relaxing on a vast terrace and simply enjoying the football, then The Valley was more for you.
It is now very difficult for the club to escape its reputation and it has become a bit of a self-fulling prophecy. Wherever Millwall go, every local nutter wanting bragging rights in his local pub will come out to have a pop at the 'famous' Millwall. A visit from Millwall has the ability to turn even the sleepiest of clubs and towns into mini Istanbuls. I have seen pubs in places like Norwich, Watford, Reading, Swindon and Southend empty with pumped up local heroes frothing at the mouth to slap a few Millwall fans around (funny enough, something joked about in this or the Millwall match day thread - cannot remember which). Now, my best mate is a Forest fan and I have attended Forest away games with him in London and the south before, if I have had a free weekend and despite being a much bigger club than Millwall, with a much larger away support, I have yet to experience the same welcome for them. I imagine little things do happen, but I have never been to Watford or Reading and seen their fans actively seeking out to attack travelling Forest fans. But I have with Millwall. Which has created the 'No One Likes Us, We Don't Care' siege mentality amongst our support. When Millwall travel we tend to only take a support made of mostly men, aged 18-50, because of all I have outlined above. And as the club has had very limited footballing success (just 2 seasons of topflight football), the support hasn't been diluted by 'new' football types, i.e., middle-class families etc. It is the sons and grandsons of the stevedores and factory workers of yore, told to 'hit them back' if anyone brings them trouble from the age of 4. Indeed, if you look at our support today, you'll see it made up of the people that keep London going, the scaffolders, roofers, brickies, binmen, rail workers etc. So, this feeds into that culture and so it goes on and on.
The reason I am giving all this context is because I believe this association with violence has gone a long way to stain the club's reputation in other dark areas, such as racism. Millwall FC has always been the closest club to England's national media. After all, it is London's most inn-city club and just over the river from The City. I think it has been very easy over the years for the media to create the narrative that Millwall = hooligans; hooligans = racists. Now, whilst this argument has some merit for clubs like Chelsea and Leeds United, it does not really stand up to scrutiny at Millwall. This is because some of Millwall's most infamous hooligans have been of Black or Asian ethnicity. Unlike at clubs like Chelsea and Leeds, these fans from ethnic minorities were more than just embraced, they were unquestionably part of the Millwall 'family', people you could rely on a dark night in Middlesbrough or as your kid's Godfather. Don't believe me? Look up Tiny at Millwall, or Tamer Hassan or Roland Manookian, as those are just the famous faces of Millwall's diverse support. Away from the hooligans, you will also see that Millwall's own database says that Millwall has one of the highest ratios of season ticket holders and members of ethnic minority backgrounds outside the big PL clubs. Further investigation will also show you that Millwall hooligans fought with National Front recruiters and moved them out of the area, never to return. So, I am particularly horrified that you have linked us to the Far Right. I put the article that documents this at the end of this post.
You ask how seriously Millwall take the issue of violence and race. Well, they took it seriously enough to pioneer the idea of football in the community, way back in the 1980s. Before it was fashionable virtue signalling to allow the likes of Manchester City and their owners of dubious acquired wealth and power to seem like they really do care. This was when Millwall were a Third Division club struggling on crowds of 3-5,000. It must have some effect on us plebs, because despite the fact that some idiots cannot help grabbing all the headlines* Millwall fans have voted a Black player of the Season on nine separate occasions, including a practicing Muslim, starting all the way back with Phil Walker in 1978. The Millwall in the Community scheme is still going strong and is an awarding winning community service that does so much good in the local area and promotes ideas like aspiration and equality, whilst fighting knife crime and gang culture. The club puts a lot of resources into this, and I would bet more in ratio terms than many other clubs.
*Some highlighted the racism at our games v Spurs and Everton. Both incidents were vile and pathetic examples of racial slurs, sung by a minority, in the case of the Everton game the Met estimated c30-50 in a crowd of 16,000 Millwall fans. The Spurs chant was about how many of the hawkers of illegal DVDS in London are of Asian ethnicity with the chant of 'DVD, DVD' aimed at Son, whilst the Everton chant was frankly pathetic 'I'd rather be...'. I cannot deny that those incidents happened, but I would argue that they do not confirm that Millwall FC are a racist institution and that our fanbase is inherently racist. More that they represented the kind of problem the club has with attracting members of society that think racial profiling is simply 'banter'. But Millwall are certainly not alone in that. Nor is football.
As for other things that the club has done to show that they take these issues seriously. Well, they built a million-pound walkway for away fans to be able to attend games at The Den safely. I am not sure if Wolverhampton Wanderers would spend similar on a way for away fans to avoid getting ambushed in the subway near Molineux, as just one example. Millwall also introduced a membership scheme in 2002. Only Millwall members can buy tickets for away games in advance. Costing the club if not money, but vocal support on the road. It will also make home games members only if there is even a hint of intelligence re potential trouble. This does cost the club money and bad will from fans. They will also restrict capacity - we could have sold 4,500 more tickets for games with West Ham, Everton etc. in the past. That includes keeping home areas free, to avoid flash points.
ley mate we also have our fair share of lefty virtual signallers on here who think anyone that doesnt confrm to their own prejudices are racist.Again, I have to take issue with some of these statements (bolded).
According to who though? Because whilst I agree that there are racist Millwall fans, just as there are racist Coventry City (or simply insert any club here) fans, I would argue that it is not something that runs through the club or fanbase, which 'long-standing problem with your club and Racism, the Far Right' implies it is.
Please try to hear me out on this, as I have signed up in good faith using my Google account. So, I am not trying to hide behind a persona or agenda.
Firstly, you will have noticed that I did not bold the 'violence' part of your assessment. That is because I cannot deny that Millwall FC has a long-standing association with football violence. In fact, it goes right back to the late 1890s and the arrival of a local rival on the scene, Thames Ironworks (West Ham United). Both clubs drew their support from London's tough docklands communities and sometimes tempers frayed. Indeed, The East Ham Echo reported in the 1906/07 season that "From the very first kick it was seen that there was likely to be some trouble. All attempts at football were ignored." Going on to explain how the violence spread to the crowd.
Millwall has also drawn much of its support from the London Docklands - Millwall, Stepney, Wapping, Bermondsey, Rotherhithe and Deptford. As well as other areas that the Old Kent Road (made famous by monopoly, as well as its criminals, bank robbers and boxers) snakes through and past, such as New Cross, Camberwell, Peckham, Walworth and Elephant & Castle. And therefore, is has always had a rough and ready support. This culture has also attracted some of the more interesting characters living in the above areas over the years. There is a reason that Charlton Athletic, playing a mere 4 miles down the road from The Den, are known as a nice, family club, even a little bit twee - and it is because people from SE London knew that is you enjoyed a rough crowd and even a bit of aggro Cold Blow Lane was the place to head. But if you preferred a more sedate Saturday afternoon, relaxing on a vast terrace and simply enjoying the football, then The Valley was more for you.
It is now very difficult for the club to escape its reputation and it has become a bit of a self-fulling prophecy. Wherever Millwall go, every local nutter wanting bragging rights in his local pub will come out to have a pop at the 'famous' Millwall. A visit from Millwall has the ability to turn even the sleepiest of clubs and towns into mini Istanbuls. I have seen pubs in places like Norwich, Watford, Reading, Swindon and Southend empty with pumped up local heroes frothing at the mouth to slap a few Millwall fans around (funny enough, something joked about in this or the Millwall match day thread - cannot remember which). Now, my best mate is a Forest fan and I have attended Forest away games with him in London and the south before, if I have had a free weekend and despite being a much bigger club than Millwall, with a much larger away support, I have yet to experience the same welcome for them. I imagine little things do happen, but I have never been to Watford or Reading and seen their fans actively seeking out to attack travelling Forest fans. But I have with Millwall. Which has created the 'No One Likes Us, We Don't Care' siege mentality amongst our support. When Millwall travel we tend to only take a support made of mostly men, aged 18-50, because of all I have outlined above. And as the club has had very limited footballing success (just 2 seasons of topflight football), the support hasn't been diluted by 'new' football types, i.e., middle-class families etc. It is the sons and grandsons of the stevedores and factory workers of yore, told to 'hit them back' if anyone brings them trouble from the age of 4. Indeed, if you look at our support today, you'll see it made up of the people that keep London going, the scaffolders, roofers, brickies, binmen, rail workers etc. So, this feeds into that culture and so it goes on and on.
The reason I am giving all this context is because I believe this association with violence has gone a long way to stain the club's reputation in other dark areas, such as racism. Millwall FC has always been the closest club to England's national media. After all, it is London's most inn-city club and just over the river from The City. I think it has been very easy over the years for the media to create the narrative that Millwall = hooligans; hooligans = racists. Now, whilst this argument has some merit for clubs like Chelsea and Leeds United, it does not really stand up to scrutiny at Millwall. This is because some of Millwall's most infamous hooligans have been of Black or Asian ethnicity. Unlike at clubs like Chelsea and Leeds, these fans from ethnic minorities were more than just embraced, they were unquestionably part of the Millwall 'family', people you could rely on a dark night in Middlesbrough or as your kid's Godfather. Don't believe me? Look up Tiny at Millwall, or Tamer Hassan or Roland Manookian, as those are just the famous faces of Millwall's diverse support. Away from the hooligans, you will also see that Millwall's own database says that Millwall has one of the highest ratios of season ticket holders and members of ethnic minority backgrounds outside the big PL clubs. Further investigation will also show you that Millwall hooligans fought with National Front recruiters and moved them out of the area, never to return. So, I am particularly horrified that you have linked us to the Far Right. I put the article that documents this at the end of this post.
You ask how seriously Millwall take the issue of violence and race. Well, they took it seriously enough to pioneer the idea of football in the community, way back in the 1980s. Before it was fashionable virtue signalling to allow the likes of Manchester City and their owners of dubious acquired wealth and power to seem like they really do care. This was when Millwall were a Third Division club struggling on crowds of 3-5,000. It must have some effect on us plebs, because despite the fact that some idiots cannot help grabbing all the headlines* Millwall fans have voted a Black player of the Season on nine separate occasions, including a practicing Muslim, starting all the way back with Phil Walker in 1978. The Millwall in the Community scheme is still going strong and is an awarding winning community service that does so much good in the local area and promotes ideas like aspiration and equality, whilst fighting knife crime and gang culture. The club puts a lot of resources into this, and I would bet more in ratio terms than many other clubs.
*Some highlighted the racism at our games v Spurs and Everton. Both incidents were vile and pathetic examples of racial slurs, sung by a minority, in the case of the Everton game the Met estimated c30-50 in a crowd of 16,000 Millwall fans. The Spurs chant was about how many of the hawkers of illegal DVDS in London are of Asian ethnicity with the chant of 'DVD, DVD' aimed at Son, whilst the Everton chant was frankly pathetic 'I'd rather be...'. I cannot deny that those incidents happened, but I would argue that they do not confirm that Millwall FC are a racist institution and that our fanbase is inherently racist. More that they represented the kind of problem the club has with attracting members of society that think racial profiling is simply 'banter'. But Millwall are certainly not alone in that. Nor is football.
As for other things that the club has done to show that they take these issues seriously. Well, they built a million-pound walkway for away fans to be able to attend games at The Den safely. I am not sure if Wolverhampton Wanderers would spend similar on a way for away fans to avoid getting ambushed in the subway near Molineux, as just one example. Millwall also introduced a membership scheme in 2002. Only Millwall members can buy tickets for away games in advance. Costing the club if not money, but vocal support on the road. It will also make home games members only if there is even a hint of intelligence re potential trouble. This does cost the club money and bad will from fans. They will also restrict capacity - we could have sold 4,500 more tickets for games with West Ham, Everton etc. in the past. That includes keeping home areas free, to avoid flash points.
I suppose “I’d rather be a p*ki than a scouse” was just a comment on the hard working ethos of first generation immigrants over the coddled indigenous white working class as well?
No. I agree with you. But, I can see why many of my fellow fans do take issue with the gesture’s association with the political movement - for the reasons I outlined. However, I do not they should boo the gesture, as the players have distanced themselves from the political movement & explained what they are trying to achieve. Like I said, it’s a difficult one to try and explain, I get that.
As for the game… Rowett has a particular way of playing and the fact that we have 8 players that should/could be first teamers out means that way of playing is currently very compromised - hence our rather slow start.
But, I’d always back us at home - after all, historically we are one of the best home teams in the country. Plus, sounds like you’re bringing a decent support and are on a very good run - that usually livens the home crowd up and in turn spurs the team. It’s games against the likes of Barnsley that I fear for us.
1-0 Wall.
Absolute scumbag wankers....ive witnessed some bad shite around Millwall down the years.
I don’t doubt that. Coventry is a pretty tough place and certainly has a reputation amongst the Millwall support of not being shy when it comes to a bit of aggro themselves.
You’d have to ask them, as I’m no hooligan, but I’m pretty sure Coventry are seen as very underrated in the football violence circles by Millwall’s best/worst (delete depending on your view point) & was a place that never disappointed in terms of finding up for it individuals, certainly back in the day.
So, just like I’ve seen some scumbags frothing at the mouth at as unlikely places as Norwich & Watford, no doubt Millwall and Coventry’s rep (in the past at least) meant you have witnessed the very same!
But it's has been explained a million time now it's just a gesture against racism and if you are anti ant racism then you are a racist. Sorry
3-1 City
Over the years I have heard our own fans chanting racist songs. One of the most common ones was ”oh Birmingham is colourful”
my first encounter with Millwall fans was in Jan 77 in the FA Cup. It was a much anticipated arrival of these mythical creatures from SE London. They didn’t disappoint, had a go in the West End, made their presence felt and lived up to their reputation. I went to the pre season friendly in 85 when Peake lost the captaincy and that was a scary experience, no more than 1500 in the crowd, a 5-1 win, every Millwall fan seemed to know each other and any strangers stood out. I was asked on a few occasions about my residence which happened to be nearby and my favourite Millwall players past and present. Bryan King and John Fashanu, who was making his debut for them. I was asked to offer another option for Fashanu. Les Briley earned me a reprieve. Cold Blow Lane was rightly fearsome.
I saw the video at Albion last weekend and it does seem that they are still active but as Solo suggests are they reactive as their reputation proceeds them?
I went to a top of the table game in 89 between Arsenal and Millwall at Highbury and it seemed that every Millwall fan was game, all dressed in a uniform of sorts and all from a similar demographic, like a Serbian militia recruitment campaign.
Just to clarify, the posting of the articles wasn’t to make out all Millwall fans are racist but in reply to marcusp who said the media are the ones painting the racism issue. How many other English clubs have been charged and fined by the FA for racist chanting in the last 5 years? Not a facetious question I genuinely don’t know
More importantly, why has Millwall's forum (North stand banter?) disappeared. Is there just a facebook page for fans chat/venting etc?
Again, I have to take issue with some of these statements (bolded).
According to who though? Because whilst I agree that there are racist Millwall fans, just as there are racist Coventry City (or simply insert any club here) fans, I would argue that it is not something that runs through the club or fanbase, which 'long-standing problem with your club and Racism, the Far Right' implies it is.
Please try to hear me out on this, as I have signed up in good faith using my Google account. So, I am not trying to hide behind a persona or agenda.
Firstly, you will have noticed that I did not bold the 'violence' part of your assessment. That is because I cannot deny that Millwall FC has a long-standing association with football violence. In fact, it goes right back to the late 1890s and the arrival of a local rival on the scene, Thames Ironworks (West Ham United). Both clubs drew their support from London's tough docklands communities and sometimes tempers frayed. Indeed, The East Ham Echo reported in the 1906/07 season that "From the very first kick it was seen that there was likely to be some trouble. All attempts at football were ignored." Going on to explain how the violence spread to the crowd.
Millwall has also drawn much of its support from the London Docklands - Millwall, Stepney, Wapping, Bermondsey, Rotherhithe and Deptford. As well as other areas that the Old Kent Road (made famous by monopoly, as well as its criminals, bank robbers and boxers) snakes through and past, such as New Cross, Camberwell, Peckham, Walworth and Elephant & Castle. And therefore, is has always had a rough and ready support. This culture has also attracted some of the more interesting characters living in the above areas over the years. There is a reason that Charlton Athletic, playing a mere 4 miles down the road from The Den, are known as a nice, family club, even a little bit twee - and it is because people from SE London knew that is you enjoyed a rough crowd and even a bit of aggro Cold Blow Lane was the place to head. But if you preferred a more sedate Saturday afternoon, relaxing on a vast terrace and simply enjoying the football, then The Valley was more for you.
It is now very difficult for the club to escape its reputation and it has become a bit of a self-fulling prophecy. Wherever Millwall go, every local nutter wanting bragging rights in his local pub will come out to have a pop at the 'famous' Millwall. A visit from Millwall has the ability to turn even the sleepiest of clubs and towns into mini Istanbuls. I have seen pubs in places like Norwich, Watford, Reading, Swindon and Southend empty with pumped up local heroes frothing at the mouth to slap a few Millwall fans around (funny enough, something joked about in this or the Millwall match day thread - cannot remember which). Now, my best mate is a Forest fan and I have attended Forest away games with him in London and the south before, if I have had a free weekend and despite being a much bigger club than Millwall, with a much larger away support, I have yet to experience the same welcome for them. I imagine little things do happen, but I have never been to Watford or Reading and seen their fans actively seeking out to attack travelling Forest fans. But I have with Millwall. Which has created the 'No One Likes Us, We Don't Care' siege mentality amongst our support. When Millwall travel we tend to only take a support made of mostly men, aged 18-50, because of all I have outlined above. And as the club has had very limited footballing success (just 2 seasons of topflight football), the support hasn't been diluted by 'new' football types, i.e., middle-class families etc. It is the sons and grandsons of the stevedores and factory workers of yore, told to 'hit them back' if anyone brings them trouble from the age of 4. Indeed, if you look at our support today, you'll see it made up of the people that keep London going, the scaffolders, roofers, brickies, binmen, rail workers etc. So, this feeds into that culture and so it goes on and on.
The reason I am giving all this context is because I believe this association with violence has gone a long way to stain the club's reputation in other dark areas, such as racism. Millwall FC has always been the closest club to England's national media. After all, it is London's most inn-city club and just over the river from The City. I think it has been very easy over the years for the media to create the narrative that Millwall = hooligans; hooligans = racists. Now, whilst this argument has some merit for clubs like Chelsea and Leeds United, it does not really stand up to scrutiny at Millwall. This is because some of Millwall's most infamous hooligans have been of Black or Asian ethnicity. Unlike at clubs like Chelsea and Leeds, these fans from ethnic minorities were more than just embraced, they were unquestionably part of the Millwall 'family', people you could rely on a dark night in Middlesbrough or as your kid's Godfather. Don't believe me? Look up Tiny at Millwall, or Tamer Hassan or Roland Manookian, as those are just the famous faces of Millwall's diverse support. Away from the hooligans, you will also see that Millwall's own database says that Millwall has one of the highest ratios of season ticket holders and members of ethnic minority backgrounds outside the big PL clubs. Further investigation will also show you that Millwall hooligans fought with National Front recruiters and moved them out of the area, never to return. So, I am particularly horrified that you have linked us to the Far Right. I put the article that documents this at the end of this post.
You ask how seriously Millwall take the issue of violence and race. Well, they took it seriously enough to pioneer the idea of football in the community, way back in the 1980s. Before it was fashionable virtue signalling to allow the likes of Manchester City and their owners of dubious acquired wealth and power to seem like they really do care. This was when Millwall were a Third Division club struggling on crowds of 3-5,000. It must have some effect on us plebs, because despite the fact that some idiots cannot help grabbing all the headlines* Millwall fans have voted a Black player of the Season on nine separate occasions, including a practicing Muslim, starting all the way back with Phil Walker in 1978. The Millwall in the Community scheme is still going strong and is an awarding winning community service that does so much good in the local area and promotes ideas like aspiration and equality, whilst fighting knife crime and gang culture. The club puts a lot of resources into this, and I would bet more in ratio terms than many other clubs.
*Some highlighted the racism at our games v Spurs and Everton. Both incidents were vile and pathetic examples of racial slurs, sung by a minority, in the case of the Everton game the Met estimated c30-50 in a crowd of 16,000 Millwall fans. The Spurs chant was about how many of the hawkers of illegal DVDS in London are of Asian ethnicity with the chant of 'DVD, DVD' aimed at Son, whilst the Everton chant was frankly pathetic 'I'd rather be...'. I cannot deny that those incidents happened, but I would argue that they do not confirm that Millwall FC are a racist institution and that our fanbase is inherently racist. More that they represented the kind of problem the club has with attracting members of society that think racial profiling is simply 'banter'. But Millwall are certainly not alone in that. Nor is football.
As for other things that the club has done to show that they take these issues seriously. Well, they built a million-pound walkway for away fans to be able to attend games at The Den safely. I am not sure if Wolverhampton Wanderers would spend similar on a way for away fans to avoid getting ambushed in the subway near Molineux, as just one example. Millwall also introduced a membership scheme in 2002. Only Millwall members can buy tickets for away games in advance. Costing the club if not money, but vocal support on the road. It will also make home games members only if there is even a hint of intelligence re potential trouble. This does cost the club money and bad will from fans. They will also restrict capacity - we could have sold 4,500 more tickets for games with West Ham, Everton etc. in the past. That includes keeping home areas free, to avoid flash points.
House of Fun is the main Millwall forum. But you have to be recommended by an already active member to be able to join.
Thank for that Solo; I might have tried to register, but my wife cruelly pointed out that I am not in possession of an active member ; (
Thank for that Solo; I might have tried to register, but my wife cruelly pointed out that I am not in possession of an active member ; (
Yeah, sorry.I suppose that’s why the more concise NOLU-WDC is better.
Millwall are bastards, Cov are bastards, we’re all just bastards
Yes it would. would you have lived in Woolwich Dockyard?When you said you lived nearby. Would that be Abbey Wood?
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