New Stadium financial viability. (3 Viewers)

DaleM · Feb 27, 2014

valiant15 said:
Arvo? I thought arvo was just another sisu company?

How could arvo take over the football club?

All this confuses the hell out of me!

It's just like Otium buying us mate. Just another strand in the spiders web of SISU subsidaries.

It seems to go like this.

Create a situation where a lot of imaginary debt is all loaded into a company by "lending"it your oen money but taking money back out in management fees and debt interest.
Try and distress/ do a deal with ACL/CCC/Higgs(Whichever is the correct one . Delete as applicable according to who states it )
Put said company into administration/ liquidation.
Buy back said company from administrator for a song.
Profit.

Repeat until it's made illegal.

Anyway I'm off to get pissed.

Godiva · Feb 27, 2014

Samo said:
Godiva, you clearly know more of these matters than I do. Why could a deal not be done? Surely if the rent is low enough the F&B'S become less important?

It's not all about the F/B money and the rent, although that is needed to become profitable. But as the club is only allowed to spend 60% of its turnover on staff wages, then it is clear we need to include the ACL turnover to be able to build a strong squad to fulfil our ambitions. What is I read again and again ... a 12.000 seat stadium shows no ambitions and will keep us where we are at best. Meaning we need more turnover to up the FFP bar and pay the wages the players we need demands.
What is your hope and ambition for this club? What will it take in players wages? How much turnover will that require?

Grendel · Feb 27, 2014

dongonzalos said:
It does make sense to lose 36 million when you possibly save 10-15 of it?

Sisu haven't lost that and sorry they ain't coming back other than on their terms. There will be 12 - 18 months of tedious litigation and then closure. Returning on a rental deal is likely to not decrease losses and will certainly not increase asset value. ACL abd sisu will never work together again.

Godiva · Feb 27, 2014

dongonzalos said:
Funnily enough I think that would be the least of everyone's concern. Most already see this as a waste of time

It's not a waste if it leads to the club and ACL being merged under SBS&L!

dongonzalos · Feb 27, 2014

Grendel said:
Sisu haven't lost that and sorry they ain't coming back other than on their terms. There will be 12 - 18 months of tedious litigation and then closure. Returning on a rental deal is likely to not decrease losses and will certainly not increase asset value. ACL abd sisu will never work together again.

I hope you are wrong

Samo · Feb 27, 2014

Grendel said:
Sisu haven't lost that and sorry they ain't coming back other than on their terms. There will be 12 - 18 months of tedious litigation and then closure. Returning on a rental deal is likely to not decrease losses and will certainly not increase asset value. ACL abd sisu will never work together again.

And if SISU lose the JR (after 18 months of tedious litigation) 'closure' will be?

Grendel · Feb 27, 2014

Samo said:
And if SISU lose the JR (after 18 months of tedious litigation) 'closure' will be?

Liquidation if the club. There will be no way back.

Hobo · Feb 27, 2014

Godiva said:
I don't really know if JS is involved in ARVO, could be. I won't be surprised if she comes out richer no matter what happens.

My concern with ARVO taking over the club is that it could lead to the club return to the Ricoh as tenants. Even if the rent is lowered to £400k/yr including match day costs it actually means the last two years have been for nothing. The club and ACL need to be merged under one owner.

There is a suggestion she is a director? Interestingly their shared take from SISU went from around 140,000 in 2012 to 340,000 in 2013? I think those are British figures, as a Cayman based outfit I'm sure they have other revenues from other pots around the world?

"I am a shepherd for other people's money". I think she stands to loose nothing, not even face ;-)

valiant15 · Feb 27, 2014

DaleM said:
It's just like Otium buying us mate. Just another strand in the spiders web of SISU subsidaries.

It seems to go like this.

Create a situation where a lot of imaginary debt is all loaded into a company by "lending"it your oen money but taking money back out in management fees and debt interest.
Try and distress/ do a deal with ACL/CCC/Higgs(Whichever is the correct one . Delete as applicable according to who states it )
Put said company into administration/ liquidation.
Buy back said company from administrator for a song.
Profit.

Repeat until it's made illegal.

Anyway I'm off to get pissed.

I don't blame you.

All this shite is enough to drive anybody to drink.

dongonzalos · Feb 27, 2014

Grendel said:
Liquidation if the club. There will be no way back.

Grendel
Do you think they can just liquidate or is it put up for grabs first?

Samo · Feb 27, 2014

Grendel said:
Liquidation if the club. There will be no way back.

And thats where we differ... Liquidation is not the best financial option therefore it will not be the chosen option

Tonylinc · Feb 27, 2014

Grendel said:
Liquidation if the club. There will be no way back.

Would that not be the best way for this absolute fiasco to end? A bidder could then buy the club at the correct price. Won't however hold my breath on that one.

stupot07 · Feb 27, 2014

Samo said:
Godiva, you clearly know more of these matters than I do. Why could a deal not be done? Surely if the rent is low enough the F&B'S become less important?

Not really. The season we got relegated are income/turnover was in the bottom 3-4 in the league despite 9-10 teams having lower attendances than us (ours was approx 15k). The 3 promoted teams all had wage bills circa x3 of our entire turnover. Low rent or not, we will struggle to compete going forward without access to additional revenues.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

valiant15 · Feb 27, 2014

stupot07 said:
Not really. The season we got relegated are income/turnover was in the bottom 3-4 in the league despite 9-10 teams having lower attendances than us (ours was approx 15k). The 3 promoted teams all had wage bills circa x3 of our entire turnover. Low rent or not, we will struggle to compete going forward without access to additional revenues.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

Well sisu should of bought them back then.

stupot07 · Feb 27, 2014

valiant15 said:
Well sisu should of bought them back then.

Shame we didn't have a HP agreement instead of rent, we'd have virtually paid it back given by now given the amount ACL have received from us in rent, matchday costs and F&B income...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

Tonylinc · Feb 27, 2014

stupot07 said:
Shame we didn't have a HP agreement instead of rent, we'd have virtually paid it back given by now given the amount ACL have received from us in rent, matchday costs and F&B income...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

Don't start all that again. Shitzu had the opportunity of buying all that lot on day 1 but chose not to. They also had the chance to buy the Higgs share but again chose not to. They have made their bed and now have to lie in it but are not prepared to do so apparently.

Samo · Feb 27, 2014

Godiva said:
It's not all about the F/B money and the rent, although that is needed to become profitable. But as the club is only allowed to spend 60% of its turnover on staff wages, then it is clear we need to include the ACL turnover to be able to build a strong squad to fulfil our ambitions. What is I read again and again ... a 12.000 seat stadium shows no ambitions and will keep us where we are at best. Meaning we need more turnover to up the FFP bar and pay the wages the players we need demands.
What is your hope and ambition for this club? What will it take in players wages? How much turnover will that require?

As someone pointed out on another thread the other day, FFP can be gotten around via the injection of equity? If that is true then SISU could buy thier way back to the big time (and a selling position) should they wish to, regardless of the rent. Is that not the case?

Godiva · Feb 27, 2014

Samo said:
As someone pointed out on another thread the other day, FFP can be gotten around via the injection of equity? If that is true then SISU could buy thier way back to the big time (and a selling position) should they wish to, regardless of the rent. Is that not the case?

The turnover is there already. Just need to be within the SBS&L group.

Grendel · Feb 27, 2014

Samo said:
As someone pointed out on another thread the other day, FFP can be gotten around via the injection of equity? If that is true then SISU could buy thier way back to the big time (and a selling position) should they wish to, regardless of the rent. Is that not the case?

I'm convinced they will get round these rules at Northampton. You are though applying normal business rules to hedge fund behaviour. In fairness sisu have been profligate and behaved against normal hedge fund mantra. The councils actions of administration and rejecting the CVA means they have at last resorted to type. If ACL had accepted the CVA I think there would have been hope. Once they rejected that we as a club were fucked.

dongonzalos · Feb 27, 2014

Grendel said:
I'm convinced they will get round these rules at Northampton. You are though applying normal business rules to hedge fund behaviour. In fairness sisu have been profligate and behaved against normal hedge fund mantra. The councils actions of administration and rejecting the CVA means they have at last resorted to type. If ACL had accepted the CVA I think there would have been hope. Once they rejected that we as a club were fucked.

So you think a multi million pound business will now make decisions on personal emotion and vengeance as oppose to what's best business wise.
SISU are a lot if things but I am not too sure they are that stupid

Grendel · Feb 27, 2014

dongonzalos said:
So you think a multi million pound business will now make decisions on personal emotion and vengeance as oppose to what's best business wise.
SISU are a lot if things but I am not too sure they are that stupid

Again you fail to see the point. You totally miss the point on hedge fund behaviour.

The clue is in their name by the way.

stupot07 · Feb 27, 2014

Tonylinc said:
Don't start all that again. Shitzu had the opportunity of buying all that lot on day 1 but chose not to. They also had the chance to buy the Higgs share but again chose not to. They have made their bed and now have to lie in it but are not prepared to do so apparently.

Don't start what? I'm merely pointing out the facts of why additional and match income is needed regardless of who owns us.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

Hobo · Feb 27, 2014

Grendel said:
Again you fail to see the point. You totally miss the point on hedge fund behaviour.

The clue is in their name by the way.

Deciding on a course of action and then sticking to that decision against repeated failures is sisu.

ccfcway · Feb 27, 2014

Godiva said:
Yes - the club needs the revenue from ACL to be profitable and competitive going forward.

if they cared about that, they would be at the ricoh taking the 10,000 fans ticket monies at the moment !

Grendel · Feb 27, 2014

ccfcway said:
if they cared about that, they would be at the ricoh taking the 10,000 fans ticket monies at the moment !

You clearly have failed to read or understand stupots analysis of revenue in our final championship season.

Samo · Feb 27, 2014

Grendel said:
You clearly have failed to read or understand stupots analysis of revenue in our final championship season.

I do hope it was not our final championship season!

Samo · Feb 27, 2014

Samo said:
As someone pointed out on another thread the other day, FFP can be gotten around via the injection of equity? If that is true then SISU could buy thier way back to the big time (and a selling position) should they wish to, regardless of the rent. Is that not the case?

Had replies from Godiva and Grendel on this post, neither seems to answer the point so... Is that not the case?

chiefdave · Feb 27, 2014

Samo said:
As someone pointed out on another thread the other day, FFP can be gotten around via the injection of equity? If that is true then SISU could buy thier way back to the big time (and a selling position) should they wish to, regardless of the rent. Is that not the case?

I'm pretty sure its the case that if the owner puts money is as equity (i.e.: not a loan) it can be counted.

Godiva · Feb 27, 2014

Samo said:
Had replies from Godiva and Grendel on this post, neither seems to answer the point so... Is that not the case?

chiefdave said:
I'm pretty sure its the case that if the owner puts money is as equity (i.e.: not a loan) it can be counted.

Yes - fresh equity counts towards the FFP. Sisu used the trick before the January window to lift the transfer ban.
But why should they continue to do so - should they put in another £Xm per year when those £Xm could just as well come from the turnover ACL already generate?
How much is the ACL revenue? I can't remember. Is it forecast at £13m for this fiscal year? That would really expand our FFP potential.

dongonzalos · Feb 27, 2014

Grendel said:
Again you fail to see the point. You totally miss the point on hedge fund behaviour.

The clue is in their name by the way.

So what do you think the hedge was and how has that changed by the cva rejection

They did not exactly induce an atmosphere to encourage it to be signed if that was some master plan.

Clearly I am missing the point please explain

Samo · Feb 27, 2014

Godiva said:
Yes - fresh equity counts towards the FFP. Sisu used the trick before the January window to lift the transfer ban.
But why should they continue to do so - should they put in another £Xm per year when those £Xm could just as well come from the turnover ACL already generate?
How much is the ACL revenue? I can't remember. Is it forecast at £13m for this fiscal year? That would really expand our FFP potential.[/QUOTE]

Yes it would and that would be great! I am not suggesting that SISU should continue to put in money, just that they could if they wished to and, given the rules about FFP and equity injection, move the club forward regardless of an agreed rental deal.

dongonzalos · Feb 27, 2014

Godiva said:
Yes - fresh equity counts towards the FFP. Sisu used the trick before the January window to lift the transfer ban.
But why should they continue to do so - should they put in another £Xm per year when those £Xm could just as well come from the turnover ACL already generate?
How much is the ACL revenue? I can't remember. Is it forecast at £13m for this fiscal year? That would really expand our FFP potential.

Did SISU not look at ACL's books and say they were not viable and not worth buying?

ccfcway · Feb 27, 2014

Grendel said:
You clearly have failed to read or understand stupots analysis of revenue in our final championship season.

read .

ccfcway · Feb 27, 2014

Grendel said:
You clearly have failed to read or understand stupots analysis of revenue in our final championship season.

what did it say ?, did it say "move to a stadium and get 2,000 fans asap" ?

Huckerby · Feb 27, 2014

Grendel - the clue is in their name?

New Stadium financial viability. (3 Viewers)

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