Brylowes
Well-Known Member
Exactly what you would expect to happen under a succession of neo-liberal Government’s.
Exactly what you would expect to happen under a succession of neo-liberal Government’s.What's happened since 1974?
There has not been a socialist election victory in the uk since late 1974,I think socialism is finished here.
Medicare for All In America is considered a communist idea.There has not been a socialist election victory in the uk since late 1974,I think socialism is finished here.
In which case I don't agree with him. The truth is most countries like ours have a blend of capitalist and socialist policy agendas, the question is more where the balance should lie between the two. Even the USA still maintains a social security system, state education, emergency medical treatment for all, subsidised healthcare for the elderly and very poor and so on.
but that doesn't mean that certain socialist ideas aren't worth incorporating into a more capitalist system.
There are things we take for granted which we wouldn't have without socialism.
Where would we be during this pandemic without the NHS?
Ok,Who of you left leaning people think there will be a socialist government again in your lifetime?
I’d like to know your views,I like Starmer and yes feel he needs to be centrist to get power.
Corbyn was a social democrat, it's broadly central in the grand scheme of things but was labelled as being far right extremism by hard right bad faith actors, because to them it is.
Ok,Who of you left leaning people think there will be a socialist government again in your lifetime?
I’d like to know your views,I like Starmer and yes feel he needs to be centrist to get power.
Oh yes, somebody who remained in the labour party for 25 years after they deleted Clause 4 is really a revolutionary. I'd suggest it is you who has a skewed Overton window, not me.I cannot find online a direct quote, only others stating it, but he is *not* a social democrat he is a democratic socialist. There is a very big difference. And I think your thoughts on the Overton window are very much skewed by your own views. Corbyn was very much more Left than the social democrats in the PLP and they hated him.
A Social Democrat works within capitalism and follows an incremental regime to decrease inequality and improve the situation for the poor without ever wanting to dismantle capitalism - as mentioned earlier it was started by Eduard Bernstein and is what is practised in Scandi countries inter alia.
A democratic Socialist wants a full-on Socialist state but rejects revolution as a way to get there. Think Chavez; Julius Nyerere etc.
Depends on how big the next worldwide crisis is. Maybe the climate emergency will usher one in.Ok,Who of you left leaning people think there will be a socialist government again in your lifetime?
I’d like to know your views,I like Starmer and yes feel he needs to be centrist to get power.
Oh yes, somebody who remained in the labour party for 25 years after they deleted Clause 4 is really a revolutionary. I'd suggest it is you who has a skewed Overton window, not me.
Ok,Who of you left leaning people think there will be a socialist government again in your lifetime?
I’d like to know your views,I like Starmer and yes feel he needs to be centrist to get power.
Well, the “left” apparently just won an election in the US. Apparently.Ok,Who of you left leaning people think there will be a socialist government again in your lifetime?
I’d like to know your views,I like Starmer and yes feel he needs to be centrist to get power.
Ah, fixed definitions - the path to madness.
...or if we accepted that definitions are argued over, adapted, and interpreted by people far wiser than you or IAbsolutely! Life would be so much easier if words didn't mean anything... or if we could change their meanings whenever if was convenient to us.
...or if we accepted that definitions are argued over, adapted, and interpreted by people far wiser than you or I
Well, they would be if you put them to said peopleNot my definitions.
“This definition I am putting forward as the correct and only definition has nothing to do with me, my own biases and opinions in no way affected which definition I decide is the right one”
I feel like this thread has taken a direction where I can be patronising here
Words, and their definitions, are not set. There's often a collective acceptance of what words mean, but their meaning, naturally, changes over time. That can apply to the mundane, everyday language (the Gay Look was used as advertising for Rootes Group products, for example, in the 1950s and nowadays, that would be interpreted somewhat differently) but this certainly applies to political theory, where people spend decades of their lives debating meanings, directions of travel, and interpretations.
Now, some ideas of Marxism are pretty third rate and fixed. We've already gone through how Marx himself saw capitalism as progress, how the likes of Stalin appropriated the iconography, but departed somewhat from the principle. Of course, you then have the likes of Gramsci, and the concept of hegemony, building on Marx's work. Recently (and again, we've gone through this) we've had Stuart Hall (not the molesting one!) who defines at the edges. Socialism is used by the American far right for ideas which, to a European idea of political theory, would be seen as centrist at best. In this country, we see how the definitions slip from the 1970s (many of Heath's acts would be pretty 'socialist' in present times!) to today.
So when there's talk, paradoxically, of 'the Left' (interesting Othering there, an attempt to demean and diminish by grouping together and totalising a disparate series of elements in comparison to a view seen as superior) constantly splitting apart, yet constantly grouping together behind one big project, it seemsthere's an unwillingness to accept the broad gamut of political views within a body. It's interesting really because, I know certain people would be horrified to be seen as being part of the far right, of being part of a racist, bigoted, intolerant, abusive set of people... but they feel able to do similar to 'the Left'. I could go on about rhetorical strategies, and battling for cultural position and therefore being able to lead the direction of the political discourse but... I won'tOthers in turn would be able to argue better than I - there's always somebody wiser than yourself out there (and don't I know it )
While I'm here, I'll slip in some light reading if anybody wants to be enraged / delighted / befuddled
Specters of Marx: The State of the Debt, the Work of Mourning and the New International
Prodigiously influential, Jacques Derrida gave rise to a comprehensive rethinking of the basic concepts and categories of Western philosophy in the latter part of the twentieth century, with writings central to our understanding of language, meaning, identity, ethics and values. In 1993, a...www.routledge.com
I suspect Corbyn hasn't read that many books on Marxism...If you’re telling me that Janet the carer who loves Corbyn has read Marx, let alone based her views on him, I’m calling you a liar.
I suspect Corbyn hasn't read that many books on Marxism...
There's a place for the theory, in the academy. There's usually a reason academics don't become politicians and, of course, their role is to analyse the politicians, not be them.Youre probably right. I’d argue Ayn Rand is probably the most read by modern politics nerds yet the right manages to avoid constant references to Randism (or even Thatcherism!) aside from the odd interview with the weirder members of the cabinet.
It’s all such a distraction from the actual ideas being floated.
I found Corbyn inspiring because his Labour vision was to be unapologetic in calling out the cruelty of austerity, and actually having ideas of how to make people’s lives better - without the political bullshit and bluster I had seen for the previous 10 years.Ive got to be honest, I find all the waffle about ideologies a massive exercise in navel gazing. My eyes start crossing whenever someone brings up Marx or Gramsci. If you’re telling me that Janet the carer who loves Corbyn has read Marx, let alone based her views on him, I’m calling you a liar.
I actually think this was Corbyns big problem. Him, Abbott, McDonnell live for that navel gazing and thought that’s what “the youth” were into as well thanks to a few weirdos online, but mostly it was bog standard left/centre-left stuff with some new ideas (fully automated luxury gay space communism) as well. McDonnell tried calling it “socialism with an iPad” but that’s still too rooted in old ideas I think.
The modern left, which is count myself part of, has yet to find a congruent leader.
Absolutely! Life would be so much easier if words didn't mean anything... or if we could change their meanings whenever if was convenient to us.
I found Corbyn inspiring because his Labour vision was to be unapologetic in calling out the cruelty of austerity, and actually having ideas of how to make people’s lives better - without the political bullshit and bluster I had seen for the previous 10 years.
I don’t really care where or what that belief is rooted to - I just want someone to take it forward and bring it to fruition, as he wasn’t able to.
I found Corbyn inspiring because his Labour vision was to be unapologetic in calling out the cruelty of austerity, and actually having ideas of how to make people’s lives better - without the political bullshit and bluster I had seen for the previous 10 years.
I don’t really care where or what that belief is rooted to - I just want someone to take it forward and bring it to fruition, as he wasn’t able to.
Yeah same, that’s what his attraction was and why he looked so good against the collection of random suits he was up against. But I dunno, I feel the new left that’s come about online isn’t exactly the same as the old left and he never quite got that. He went full bore for the social liberalism because that’s an easy win with that crowd, but when arguing for policy for example it always felt like he didn’t fully grasp it unless it was in 1970s socialist terms. Maybe it’s just me.
Stuff like the local energy companies wasn’t pushed the same way as staples like “nationalise Royal Mail”, same with UBI and other 21st century ideas that weren’t really around then.
Yeah same, that’s what his attraction was and why he looked so good against the collection of random suits he was up against. But I dunno, I feel the new left that’s come about online isn’t exactly the same as the old left and he never quite got that. He went full bore for the social liberalism because that’s an easy win with that crowd, but when arguing for policy for example it always felt like he didn’t fully grasp it unless it was in 1970s socialist terms. Maybe it’s just me.
Stuff like the local energy companies wasn’t pushed the same way as staples like “nationalise Royal Mail”, same with UBI and other 21st century ideas that weren’t really around then.
tbh, Johnson started offering to spend, so Labour decided they needed to spend even more. It was a bit like when Blair was in - Tories felt they had to go uber-right to compensate, so looked like total nutters as a result!I think he got over excited. 2017 indicated the public were receptive to some of his policies and it was like if he was elected he was going to try and cram fucking everything he wanted to do into 4 years.
Coupled with the ambiguity over Brexit and it was a mess.
To me it was just a bad manifesto and campaign.
Johnsons manifesto was a bag of shite as well but the clear Brexit message superseded everything.
I think they were desperately trying to take the conversation away from Brexit as they had fucked it up big style.tbh, Johnson started offering to spend, so Labour decided they needed to spend even more. It was a bit like when Blair was in - Tories felt they had to go uber-right to compensate, so looked like total nutters as a result!
Broadband communism was the phrase I believe. Looking at what has happened since GE19 some of his ideas look visionary.Isn't some of that down to the simplism of the media and how it represents things (see "free broadband")?
I tend to agree with you that renationalisation whilst something that should happen is really secondary to more important 21st century stuff. The first thing Labour needs to do is expose the state budget = household budget myth. Rishi Sunak has given them the opportunity to do it through the covid spending. Unfortunately the dullard Starmer has as shadow chancellor seems to want to try and play the Tories at their own game. It's just really depressing.
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