Transfer Rumour Oliver Dovin (5 Viewers)

Mucca Mad Boys · Oct 11, 2024

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Using a 2 yard pass completion rate of 99% is extremely one dimenstional way of looking at it. Have you seen the results table, PPG, and also the clangers everyone seems to shut their eyes at? He's a decent player, just massively overrated, and no one has ever successfully counter-argued my points on him once.

Like I said, didn't go to the PL for the ridiculous £25 million many were frothing about and yet I've been sitting by my front door waiting for apology letters to come. Seemingly all those people sending them have collectively got lost together.

I would argue, but I’ll just leave this here instead. He’s statistically one of the best midfielders in the league.

His ‘clangers’ (i.e. errors) is in the bottom 9% of midfielders in the league and the same is true for miscontrolls (bottoms 22%) and dispossesses (bottom 21%).

The statistics just do not corroborate your eye test.

Ben Sheaf Scouting Report for Last 365 Days Men's Next 14 Competitions | FBref.com

Compare Ben Sheaf to others in passing, goal scoring, attacking, defense and more for the Last 365 Days Men's Next 14 Competitions

fbref.com

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Oct 11, 2024

Mucca Mad Boys said:
I would argue, but I’ll just leave this here instead. He’s statistically one of the best midfielders in the league.

His ‘clangers’ (i.e. errors) is in the bottom 9% of midfielders in the league and the same is true for miscontrolls (bottoms 22%) and dispossesses (bottom 21%).

The statistics just do not corroborate your eye test.

Ben Sheaf Scouting Report for Last 365 Days Men's Next 14 Competitions | FBref.com

Compare Ben Sheaf to others in passing, goal scoring, attacking, defense and more for the Last 365 Days Men's Next 14 Competitions

fbref.com

I know we haven't been listening for a couple of years so nothing I say is going to change your view, but like I said 'stats' like this aren’t the full story.

If they were he would have gone for the massive sum to the PL some of you were banging on about.

JohnWH · Oct 11, 2024

Only partially skimming here so I might be a bit off:
But what did Sheaf do or say to Dovin? A row over a bad backpass between the two? Fill me in here.

Brighton Sky Blue · Oct 11, 2024

JohnWH said:
Only partially skimming here so I might be a bit off:
But what did Sheaf do or say to Dovin? A row over a bad backpass between the two? Fill me in here.

It began with a contrast being made between one poster’s loyalty to a standard journeyman goalkeeper and his famous critique of one of the club’s best players.

JohnWH · Oct 11, 2024

Brighton Sky Blue said:
It began with a contrast being made between one poster’s loyalty to a standard journeyman goalkeeper and his famous critique of one of the club’s best players.

Ah, gotcha.
Boosh on the loosh again I see.

Mucca Mad Boys · Oct 11, 2024

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
I know we haven't been listening for a couple of years so nothing I say is going to change your view, but like I said 'stats' like this aren’t the full story.

If they were he would have gone for the massive sum to the PL some of you were banging on about.

You’re right that statistics aren’t the be all and end all. However, there comes a point when a subjective opinion is backed up by some objective markers.

Therefore, the issue with your take is that a) the statistics don’t support you and b) you’re also an outlier on the eye test too. Is everyone but you wrong on this? I don’t think so.

To use an example, after the Sheffield Wednesday game, I ranted that Sheaf and Eccles are too similar profile a player and in my subjective opinion, that was a bad thing for the team. You compare the two players statistically, it shows they’re broadly similar players i.e. excel in the same areas. So my opinion on that specific thing at least has some evidence to back it up.

Just out of curiosity, how much would you sell Sheaf for?

The watchmaker · Oct 11, 2024

fernandopartridge said:
It's tedious listening to all our players being slagged constantly. Dovin has done little wrong playing for us and he's already getting it.

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Am I the only person that is annoyed this is even a story? U21s is a development squad. It should be a safe space to prep for real internationals. Keepers make errors. Sweden still won. Did he make any saves that contributed to that? Idk - let's just make a massive issue of the one he let in.

I'm not calling out the guy who initially posted the vid on here - it's a forum where we talk about stuff of interest. But the fact that it made the CET and that people are reading anything in to it irritates me.

Nick · Oct 11, 2024

The watchmaker said:
Am I the only person that is annoyed this is even a story? U21s is a development squad. It should be a safe space to prep for real internationals. Keepers make errors. Sweden still won. Did he make any saves that contributed to that? Idk - let's just make a massive issue of the one he let in.

I'm not calling out the guy who initially posted the vid on here - it's a forum where we talk about stuff of interest. But the fact that it made the CET and that people are reading anything it it irritates me.

Yeah it's like when they player bought a new car and they ran an article

The watchmaker · Oct 11, 2024

ccfctommy said:
Cult of Wilson

I mean, i don't know why people use his past career as a stick to beat him with. Never seen this happen with any other CCFC player! Bit harsh IMO

Cult of Wilson

It's like last summer when we thought he was leaving we all met up outside Zizzis to take the poison. I don't remember anyone saying they were bothered if he left.

It's literally just that some of us don't get the absolute hatred for a guy who has 'done okay' and was a big part of the season that really put us back in the public eye and... he might not be the best but he tries.

I'd have stuck with Dovin. It's not his fault Robins is picking him and Robins is picking him over Dovin and Collins for a reason. He would probably liked to have done better with some shots but he's not getting much help from his defence and he has done... 'alright'.

Cult of Wilson

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Oct 11, 2024

Mucca Mad Boys said:
You’re right that statistics aren’t the be all and end all. However, there comes a point when a subjective opinion is backed up by some objective markers.

Therefore, the issue with your take is that a) the statistics don’t support you and b) you’re also an outlier on the eye test too. Is everyone but you wrong on this? I don’t think so.

To use an example, after the Sheffield Wednesday game, I ranted that Sheaf and Eccles are too similar profile a player and in my subjective opinion, that was a bad thing for the team. You compare the two players statistically, it shows they’re broadly similar players i.e. excel in the same areas. So my opinion on that specific thing at least has some evidence to back it up.

Just out of curiosity, how much would you sell Sheaf for?

Sheaf and Eccles are similar players. I agree. Again though, I was saying this last season and got ridiculed for it. Eccles was being hounded as a league 1 player, and many of the same people were banging on about Sheaf being bound for Champions League football and was going to get sold for 25million plus. Every time he made a mistake it was because of the wind direction or the tea lady, and it just escalated into stupidity.

In reality he was being massively overrated and it was just delusional nonsense to suggest he was that good. The concept that he was worth more than Hamer at 16 million alone was questionable at best, borderline insanity at worst. If he was going to attract that kind of money from the PL Doug would sell him. I don't need to prove myself on anything else or my opinions of him as a player either. Those who were saying he was that good have been proven simply incorrect, and have been hiding under the floorboards ever since.

skybluecam · Oct 11, 2024

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Sheaf and Eccles are similar players. I agree. Again though, I was saying this last season and got ridiculed for it. Eccles was being hounded as a league 1 player, and many of the same people were banging on about Sheaf being bound for Champions League football and was going to get sold for 25million plus. Every time he made a mistake it was because of the wind direction or the tea lady, and it just escalated into stupidity.

In reality he was being massively overrated and it was just delusional nonsense to suggest he was that good. The concept that he was worth more than Hamer at 16 million alone was questionable at best, borderline insanity at worst. If he was going to attract that kind of money from the PL Doug would sell him. I don't need to prove myself on anything else or my opinions of him as a player either. Those who were saying he was that good have been proven simply incorrect, and have been hiding under the floorboards ever since.

Sheaf is miles ahead of Eccles.

Hamer was miles ahead of Sheaf.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Oct 11, 2024

skybluecam said:
Sheaf is miles ahead of Eccles.

Hamer was miles ahead of Sheaf.

I don't agree with your first point.

Second one in total agreement.

SlowerThanPlatt · Oct 11, 2024

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
In reality he was being massively overrated and it was just delusional nonsense to suggest he was that good. The concept that he was worth more than Hamer at 16 million alone was questionable at best, borderline insanity at worst. If he was going to attract that kind of money from the PL Doug would sell him. I don't need to prove myself on anything else or my opinions of him as a player either. Those who were saying he was that good have been proven simply incorrect, and have been hiding under the floorboards ever since.

People massively overestimate what market there is for players in their mid 20s with no/little top level experience.

Here is midfielders filtered to 23-30

Championship - Transfer records

The transfer record overview shows the highest grossing transfers of the Championship. It also shows the new club and the transfer fee.

www.transfermarkt.co.uk

ccfctommy · Oct 12, 2024

procdoc said:
I really can’t stand that prick

Bit of a bizarre comment. Have you ever met him!?

Mucca Mad Boys · Oct 12, 2024

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Sheaf and Eccles are similar players. I agree. Again though, I was saying this last season and got ridiculed for it. Eccles was being hounded as a league 1 player, and many of the same people were banging on about Sheaf being bound for Champions League football and was going to get sold for 25million plus. Every time he made a mistake it was because of the wind direction or the tea lady, and it just escalated into stupidity.

In reality he was being massively overrated and it was just delusional nonsense to suggest he was that good. The concept that he was worth more than Hamer at 16 million alone was questionable at best, borderline insanity at worst. If he was going to attract that kind of money from the PL Doug would sell him. I don't need to prove myself on anything else or my opinions of him as a player either. Those who were saying he was that good have been proven simply incorrect, and have been hiding under the floorboards ever since.

They are a similar profile of player, true. When you look into the numbers, Sheaf is a superior player by far. The only areas Eccles really bests Sheaf in is blocks, clearances, xA, corner taking - I posted their respective stats in another thread (fbref).

The reason Sheaf was value at around £15-20m was because his contract length was longer than Hamer’s. The reality of the transfer market is that top Championship players in any position will be worth comfortably worth £10-15m. You may not agree, but the data paints Sheaf as a top progressive deep lying playmaker in the league. Data drives recruitment policies across the football pyramid and teams in the league above will bid for him in Jan and next summer.

Leeds sold an 18 year old Archie Gray for £40m - the transfer market has no logic to it. If we can convince someone to give us £20m for Sheaf, why would you complain?! No one expected us to get the fees we did for Vik and Hamer.

SlowerThanPlatt · Oct 12, 2024

Mucca Mad Boys said:
Leeds sold an 18 year old Archie Gray for £40m - the transfer market has no logic to it.

That does make sense tbh, you’re buying elite level potential, he was already a good Championship player in one of the best teams at 17-18.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Oct 12, 2024

Mucca Mad Boys said:
They are a similar profile of player, true. When you look into the numbers, Sheaf is a superior player by far. The only areas Eccles really bests Sheaf in is blocks, clearances, xA, corner taking - I posted their respective stats in another thread (fbref).

The reason Sheaf was value at around £15-20m was because his contract length was longer than Hamer’s. The reality of the transfer market is that top Championship players in any position will be worth comfortably worth £10-15m. You may not agree, but the data paints Sheaf as a top progressive deep lying playmaker in the league. Data drives recruitment policies across the football pyramid and teams in the league above will bid for him in Jan and next summer.

Leeds sold an 18 year old Archie Gray for £40m - the transfer market has no logic to it. If we can convince someone to give us £20m for Sheaf, why would you complain?! No one expected us to get the fees we did for Vik and Hamer.

We aren't getting 20 million+ for Sheaf from a PL team you absolute fruit cake.

Hamer's fee was fully deserved, as was Gyökeres' (despite some on here telling us to take derisory offers). Sheaf isn't fit to lace either of their boots.

Again, you are on the wrong side of facts about this. Regardless of his 'progressive pass' statistics (not a single assist from any of those anyway). It's all Football Manager fantasy and not real world. Also, put some respect towards Eccles. He's at least as good, if not better, and he's the only one that's turning up currently.

Mucca Mad Boys · Oct 12, 2024

SlowerThanPlatt said:
That does make sense tbh, you’re buying elite level potential, he was already a good Championship player in one of the best teams at 17-18.

It’s to demonstrate the inflation of Championship player prices. His fee was around the same fees fetched for several established Prem players like Livramento, Ward-Prowse, Barnes and Maddison. That fee is nearly £10m more than Jude Bellingham’s fee. So we shouldn’t have any qualms asking for £15-25m for any of our stars that lead the league. That’s the going rate for Championship talent now it’s a reliable market for elite European leagues.

SlowerThanPlatt · Oct 12, 2024

Mucca Mad Boys said:
It’s to demonstrate the inflation of Championship player prices. His fee was around the same fees fetched for several established Prem players like Livramento, Ward-Prowse, Barnes and Maddison. That fee is nearly £10m more than Jude Bellingham’s fee. So we shouldn’t have any qualms asking for £15-25m for any of our stars that lead the league. That’s the going rate for Championship talent now it’s a reliable market for elite European leagues.

It’s the inflation for exceptional youngsters, not players in their mid 20s who’s level is set, if you look at the link I posted above.

Mucca Mad Boys · Oct 12, 2024

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
We aren't getting 20 million+ for Sheaf from a PL team you absolute fruit cake.

Hamer's fee was fully deserved, as was Gyökeres' (despite some on here telling us to take derisory offers). Sheaf isn't fit to lace either of their boots.

Again, you are on the wrong side of facts about this. Regardless of his 'progressive pass' statistics (not a single assist from any of those anyway). It's all Football Manager fantasy and not real world. Also, put some respect towards Eccles. He's at least as good, if not better, and he's the only one that's turning up currently.

I said £15-20m, not 20+.

If you’ve looked at the data, you will see that Sheaf is a league leader in many categories ranging from passing, defensive stats and things like touches in the box, carries and shot creating actions. You speak in generalised statement which is fine if it’s backed up by data, it just isn’t.

It’s just a strange hill you’ve chosen to die on. Let’s just agree to disagree and end the conversation on this one question: how much would you sell Sheaf for?

Mucca Mad Boys · Oct 12, 2024

SlowerThanPlatt said:
It’s the inflation for exceptional youngsters, not players in their mid 20s who’s level is set, if you look at the link I posted above.

I was looking at the same data set and there’s about 5 midfielders there that went for £15-20m in that age range. Hamer and Sara being the best Championship midfielders in consecutive years going for £15+ million. In relation to Sheaf, this £15-20m figure was banded about this summer when his contract had 2 years left and that is a depreciating asset.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Oct 12, 2024

Mucca Mad Boys said:
I said £15-20m, not 20+.

If you’ve looked at the data, you will see that Sheaf is a league leader in many categories ranging from passing, defensive stats and things like touches in the box, carries and shot creating actions. You speak in generalised statement which is fine if it’s backed up by data, it just isn’t.

It’s just a strange hill you’ve chosen to die on. Let’s just agree to disagree and end the conversation on this one question: how much would you sell Sheaf for?

You literally said; if someone offered 20 million for Sheaf, who could complain... Backtracking only weakens your argument further.

I have looked at the data. I have watched him play. It is a prime example of why you don't buy a player based off these metrics alone, and frankly I don't give a fuck what your Football Manager data says either. 'Touches in the box'. Fuck me. He'll curve it around the area and dissolve our attacking urgency, if he isn't surrendering possesion or shooting a shot into row Z as he takes the wrong decision yet again.

He's overrated and not constructive to the future of our football club. The strange hill to die on is what we've seen in the last eighteen months about him being the second coming of Pirlo and the unrealistic transfer fees attributed. I'll leave it up to Doug, but it won't be anywhere near the figures some of you are talking about. As has already been proven by the lack of suitors in the summer. The sooner he moves on and we get a proper captain, the better.

Frankly_Mr_Shankly · Oct 12, 2024

shepardo01 said:
The Aled Williams factor....

He should stick to singing the Snowman

Mucca Mad Boys · Oct 12, 2024

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
You literally said; if someone offered 20 million for Sheaf, who could complain... Backtracking only weakens your argument further.

I have looked at the data. I have watched him play. It is a prime example of why you don't buy a player based off these metrics alone, and frankly I don't give a fuck what your Football Manager data says either. 'Touches in the box'. Fuck me. He'll curve it around the area and dissolve our attacking urgency, if he isn't surrendering possesion or shooting a shot into row Z as he takes the wrong decision yet again.

He's overrated and not constructive to the future of our football club. The strange hill to die on is what we've seen in the last eighteen months about him being the second coming of Pirlo and the unrealistic transfer fees attributed. I'll leave it up to Doug, but it won't be anywhere near the figures some of you are talking about. As has already been proven by the lack of suitors in the summer. The sooner he moves on and we get a proper captain, the better.

If a bid came in for sheaf, what number would you accept?

I said £15-20m last season and still stand by that. There’s no back tracking saying a player with one year less on their contract is worth slightly less. The line you’re quoting is:

If we can convince someone to give us £20m for Sheaf, why would you complain?!

The emphasis being on you because I know I’d take £15-20m for Sheaf.

wingy · Oct 12, 2024

Mucca Mad Boys said:
If a bid came in for sheaf, what number would you accept?

I said £15-20m last season and still stand by that. There’s no back tracking saying a player with one year less on their contract is worth slightly less. The line you’re quoting is:

The emphasis being on you because I know I’d take £15-20m for Sheaf.

£8M -£10M

Old Warwickshire lad · Oct 12, 2024

This is just my opinion. Both Collins and Wilson are next to useless, and so it looks like is our goalkeeping coach.
As far as Dovin is concerned. He made no obvious errors whilst playing for us. He did not look great, but didn’t look bad and made some good saves.
Looks a bit sloppy around his 6 yard box,but better than the other two. This is where he needs coaching.
We need to remember he was trying to settle in to a new country,new league and a new team which was playing badly.
So all in all I don’t think he needed dropping,he needed a confidence boost.
Just out of curiosity, how much are all these new analysts,performance directors etc costing?

Cally Fedora · Oct 12, 2024

Dovin is what I call a zero risk signing. He’s young. He’s already recognised internationally. He’s obviously a good keeper and he has that all important calmness/aura. He’ll be our keeper for a while I think and will probably go in to big things. Wilson and Collins are perfectly acceptable back ups.

Sick Boy · Oct 12, 2024

Mucca Mad Boys said:
If a bid came in for sheaf, what number would you accept?

I said £15-20m last season and still stand by that. There’s no back tracking saying a player with one year less on their contract is worth slightly less. The line you’re quoting is:

The emphasis being on you because I know I’d take £15-20m for Sheaf.

It’d probably be somewhere between £12-15m - I don’t think anyone on here actually said £25m.

Sick Boy · Oct 12, 2024

wingy said:
£8M -£10M

No chance he’d go for less than £10m.

Mucca Mad Boys · Oct 12, 2024

Sick Boy said:
It’d probably be somewhere between £12-15m - I don’t think anyone on here actually said £25m.

Including myself. I agree that range is likely too because his contract will have 12 months left unless someone gets desperate in Jan. Which is good value still.

fernandopartridge · Oct 12, 2024

Frankly_Mr_Shankly said:
He should stick to singing the Snowman

"We're flapping in the air...."

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Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Oct 12, 2024

Mucca Mad Boys said:
If a bid came in for sheaf, what number would you accept?

I said £15-20m last season and still stand by that. There’s no back tracking saying a player with one year less on their contract is worth slightly less. The line you’re quoting is:

The emphasis being on you because I know I’d take £15-20m for Sheaf.

None of it matters.

People on here including yourself overestimated his value and ability, and for now he remains a CCFC player. The talk about passing statistics is just misdirection from the overall point, but we know that, because there isn't actually a relevent counterargument, which is why most people who previously said things like 'we will see after the summer just how good he is' and 'he's going to the PL for 20million+' have gone very quiet.

Mucca Mad Boys · Oct 12, 2024

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
None of it matters.

People on here including yourself overestimated his value and ability, and for now he remains a CCFC player. The talk about passing statistics is just misdirection from the overall point, but we know that, because there isn't actually a relevent counterargument, which is why most people who previously said things like 'we will see after the summer just how good he is' and 'he's going to the PL for 20million+' have gone very quiet.

You’re getting worked up over things no one has said. It gone all quiet because this £20+ million figure is one you have made up…

wingy · Oct 12, 2024

Sick Boy said:
No chance he’d go for less than £10m.

Watch and see!

wingy · Oct 12, 2024

Mucca Mad Boys said:
You’re getting worked up over things no one has said. It gone all quiet because this £20+ million figure is one you have made up…

Not at all, get real!

Transfer Rumour Oliver Dovin (5 Viewers)

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