Our downfall (1 Viewer)

oucho · Mar 30, 2016

IMO our downfall has been not enough players coming to the party in the goalscoring stakes - after Arma and Murph, our next top scorer is jointly MAF and Tuddy with three each. Successful teams generally share the goals around so that when the main strikers inevitably have a dip in form, there are others to take up the slack.

Classic example is United in the mid 90s - they never had a 20 goal a season striker, but they had the likes of Cantona, Hughes, McClair who would be good for 10-15 each, then they'd get 5-10 each from the likes of Keane, Ince, Kanchelskis, Sharpe, Giggs...even the likes of Pallister, Bruce and Irwin tended to get 3-4 each per season. That makes a hell of difference over the course of a season.

SkyBlueScottie · Mar 30, 2016

Reda, would have probably got 5 or 6. Maddison would be worth another few had he stayed fit. Kent had he stayed probably would have got a few...

steve82 · Mar 30, 2016

For me it's a combination of things.
1) The bad luck with injuries at the back in the heart of the defence and inability to keep a steady back line
2) recruitment not quite right balance as a squad, to many inexperienced raw players, when we lost key experienced players we only had more kids to bring on and step up.
3) experienced players who were signed, eg the 34 club didn't work like there form suggested they may. Some were out of desperation like Ramage and maybe still down to the lack of scouting so gone with what he thought may of been best to lift us.
4) too many technical, delicate players not prepared or equipped to put a good challenge in. More fighters, grafters required.
5) lack of natural wide players, players with pace to attack and Strech the pitch. We've been too narrow playing though the middle to often in congested areas. When we lost Kent why did we not get Elson Hooi?
6) lack of leaders through out the team, no talking to each other
7) no natural captain to drag his team up when needed.
8) to reliant on Armstrong scoring, and Murphy. Lack of goals through out.
9)inability to defend at set pieces partly contributed by our defensive woes.

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higgs · Mar 30, 2016

Agree with you bud good points

Dimi_Konstantflapalot · Mar 30, 2016

steve82 said:
For me it's a combination of things.
1) The bad luck with injuries at the back in the heart of the defence and inability to keep a steady back line
2) recruitment not quite right balance as a squad, to many inexperienced raw players, when we lost key experienced players we only had more kids to bring on and step up.
3) experienced players who were signed, eg the 34 club didn't work like there form suggested they may. Some were out of desperation like Ramage and maybe still down to the lack of scouting so gone with what he thought may of been best to lift us.
4) too many technical, delicate players not prepared or equipped to put a good challenge in. More fighters, grafters required.
5) lack of natural wide players, players with pace to attack and Strech the pitch. We've been too narrow playing though the middle to often in congested areas. When we lost Kent why did we not get Elson Hooi?
6) lack of leaders through out the team, no talking to each other
7) no natural captain to drag his team up when needed.
8) to reliant on Armstrong scoring, and Murphy. Lack of goals through out.
9)inability to defend at set pieces partly contributed by our defensive woes.

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Some good points here. There are a fair few of these that have been systemic issues for a number of years, namely 2, 4, 5, 6, 7 & 9. We have lacked natural leaders and hardened battle-axe type players for a long time now and no doubt this is linked to our susceptibility at set pieces - another area where we have been dreadful for longer than I care to remember.

Otis · Mar 30, 2016

steve82 said:
For me it's a combination of things.
1) The bad luck with injuries at the back in the heart of the defence and inability to keep a steady back line
2) recruitment not quite right balance as a squad, to many inexperienced raw players, when we lost key experienced players we only had more kids to bring on and step up.
3) experienced players who were signed, eg the 34 club didn't work like there form suggested they may. Some were out of desperation like Ramage and maybe still down to the lack of scouting so gone with what he thought may of been best to lift us.
4) too many technical, delicate players not prepared or equipped to put a good challenge in. More fighters, grafters required.
5) lack of natural wide players, players with pace to attack and Strech the pitch. We've been too narrow playing though the middle to often in congested areas. When we lost Kent why did we not get Elson Hooi?
6) lack of leaders through out the team, no talking to each other
7) no natural captain to drag his team up when needed.
8) to reliant on Armstrong scoring, and Murphy. Lack of goals through out.
9)inability to defend at set pieces partly contributed by our defensive woes.

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Number 4 in particular stands out for me. How many times have our frail players been robbed of the ball and it's cost us?

Maddison can't tackle, Murphy can't tackle, Lameiras can't tackle.

I was watching Southend tonight. They had some very skilful, tricky players such as Jack Payne, but he was also tenacious to boot. Sort of a cross between Dennis Wise and Eden Hazzard.

When you have lightweight players like those listed above, they can be outmuscled too easily and dispossessed and then when they are disposessed they lack the physicality to get the ball back again.

blueflint · Mar 30, 2016

SkyBlueScottie said:
Reda, would have probably got 5 or 6. Maddison would be worth another few had he stayed fit. Kent had he stayed probably would have got a few...

reda and stay fit in one sentence ha ha ha

Gazolba · Mar 30, 2016

steve82 said:
For me it's a combination of things.
1) The bad luck with injuries at the back in the heart of the defence and inability to keep a steady back line
<snip>

It's not bad luck when you re-sign someone like Reda who we all just knew would break down again. It's very poor decision making.

Also please add to your list 10) Inability to score penalties and 11) Reliance on an inexperienced GK

steve82 · Mar 30, 2016

Otis said:
Number 4 in particular stands out for me. How many times have our frail players been robbed of the ball and it's cost us?

Maddison can't tackle, Murphy can't tackle, Lameiras can't tackle.

I was watching Southend tonight. They had some very skilful, tricky players such as Jack Payne, but he was also tenacious to boot. Sort of a cross between Dennis Wise and Eden Hazzard.

When you have lightweight players like those listed above, they can be outmuscled too easily and dispossessed and then when they are disposessed they lack the physicality to get the ball back again.

Our ability or want more to the point to defend from the front has been a real issue last few months, we're to slow and sluggish coming back at times. When fleck and Vincelot have been to deep before we know it the opposition are in an around our box. Weve allowed pressure to build up upon our selves to easy forcing again our own errors. It's like we're playing with no midfield. Swindon and Colchester over ran us too easy in the middle

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magicmanfan · Mar 31, 2016

Successful teams keep clean sheets. It doesn't happen lile this, but you only need to score 30 goals if you keep 30 clean sheets and win 30 games. Mowbray's teams can never defend. That's why Burton are top. They might be dull to watch, but they keep a lot of clean sheets and nick the odd goal.

OffenhamSkyBlue · Mar 31, 2016

Did RCC not beat (or come close to beating) Oggy's age-old record for the length of time without conceding a goal, back in the purple patch? And when we scored goals for fun?
I struggle to understand what has changed with the same core of players since that time.

stupot07 · Mar 31, 2016

Otis said:
Number 4 in particular stands out for me. How many times have our frail players been robbed of the ball and it's cost us?

Maddison can't tackle, Murphy can't tackle, Lameiras can't tackle.

I was watching Southend tonight. They had some very skilful, tricky players such as Jack Payne, but he was also tenacious to boot. Sort of a cross between Dennis Wise and Eden Hazzard.

When you have lightweight players like those listed above, they can be outmuscled too easily and dispossessed and then when they are disposessed they lack the physicality to get the ball back again.

Did you watch the Swindon Wigan game that was on before us in Good Friday? As well as technically being good players, they were all strong on the ball and in the tackle and were very physical.

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GaryJones · Mar 31, 2016

I think League 1 has been a learning curve for TM too - trying to play Premier League or Championship Style Football in League 1 simply doesn't work. You need a certain "clogger/slogger" style and a tenacity to win the ball back at all costs.
10 Jim O,Brian's (Hed make a shit Goalkeeper) would be good - his tendency to run around like a headless chicken might not have adhered him to TM though as TM likes ball players that stick to their positions and play strictly to the system.

For me I would say this season has one of highs and lows and has ended up being a disappointment.

Otis · Mar 31, 2016

stupot07 said:
Did you watch the Swindon Wigan game that was on before us in Good Friday? As well as technically being good players, they were all strong on the ball and in the tackle and were very physical.

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Yep I did. The difference is palpable.

We lose, or are robbed of possession very easily.

One of the reasons I will not be too unhappy if Fleck goes. He is always getting the ball taken off him.

Paxman II · Mar 31, 2016

oucho said:
IMO our downfall has been not enough players coming to the party in the goalscoring stakes - after Arma and Murph, our next top scorer is jointly MAF and Tuddy with three each. Successful teams generally share the goals around so that when the main strikers inevitably have a dip in form, there are others to take up the slack.

Classic example is United in the mid 90s - they never had a 20 goal a season striker, but they had the likes of Cantona, Hughes, McClair who would be good for 10-15 each, then they'd get 5-10 each from the likes of Keane, Ince, Kanchelskis, Sharpe, Giggs...even the likes of Pallister, Bruce and Irwin tended to get 3-4 each per season. That makes a hell of difference over the course of a season.

TM stated the aim was promotion pushing season and with that he clearly stated he needed and wanted midfielders to step up and score themselves some goals. he spotted and knew what was required from the get go. One or two obliged but then that petered out. I expect TM will assess the type of players he is dealing with at this level. Some have ambition and ability to move up in their careers and some clearly do not.

Otis · Mar 31, 2016

Okay, here's a question, which players in our squad would be the ones having the manager tear his hair out? And I don't just mean Mowbray, but perhaps in general too.

Players that have managers shaking their heads and putting their hands to their faces in despair.

Then, which players are the ones that TM or most managers would swear they could stand by and have complete and utter trust in?

I know it will vary slightly from manager to manager, but several times this season I have seen TM with his head in his hands when Murphy has made an error.

Not talking about rating and not rating a player, I am talking about the ones that frustrate the manager the most and the ones he believes he can rely on week in week out.

So .....

Frustrate:

RCC
Murphy
Fleck
Lameiras
Haynes
Phillips

Rely on:

Ricketts
Martin
Stokes
Vincelot
Cole
Armstrong

Everyone else inbetween.

peekingtom · Mar 31, 2016

City were doing well until Madison came back into the team / squad .

Huckerby · Mar 31, 2016

Otis said:
Okay, here's a question, which players in our squad would be the ones having the manager tear his hair out? And I don't just mean Mowbray, but perhaps in general too.

Players that have managers shaking their heads and putting their hands to their faces in despair.

Then, which players are the ones that TM or most managers would swear they could stand by and have complete and utter trust in?

I know it will vary slightly from manager to manager, but several times this season I have seen TM with his head in his hands when Murphy has made an error.

Not talking about rating and not rating a player, I am talking about the ones that frustrate the manager the most and the ones he believes he can rely on week in week out.

So .....

Frustrate:

RCC
Murphy
Fleck
Lameiras
Haynes
Phillips

Rely on:

Ricketts
Martin
Stokes
Vincelot
Cole
Armstrong

Everyone else inbetween.

Rely on ricketts? You feeling alright?

Otis · Mar 31, 2016

Huckerby said:
Rely on ricketts? You feeling alright?

Was talking about what TM would believe.

Huckerby · Mar 31, 2016

Otis said:
Was talking about what TM would believe.

There's a case for Mowbray being tactically inept but he's not blind

Otis · Mar 31, 2016

Huckerby said:
There's a case for Mowbray being tactically inept but he's not blind

Hmm, so why pick him every week?

Do you think he is crying into his pillow every Saturday night whispering 'Damn you Tony (manager 3rd person syndrome), why did you have to make him captain! Now you can never ever drop him, EVER!!'

Huckerby · Mar 31, 2016

Otis said:
Hmm, so why pick him every week?

Do you think he is crying into his pillow every Saturday night whispering 'Damn you Tony (manager 3rd person syndrome), why did you have to make him captain! Now you can never ever drop him, EVER!!'

do you think hes crying at night about fleck, rcc, murphy?

Otis · Mar 31, 2016

Huckerby said:
do you think hes crying at night about fleck, rcc, murphy?

I think Fleck has pictures of Tony Mowbray on a farm, bringing a whole new meaning to the phrase, sheep dip.

coop · Mar 31, 2016

Did you not no it's the fans fault for not filling the ricoh every home game.

rupert_bear · Mar 31, 2016

The main reason imo for our downfall has been neglect of the forward line, yes we have been unlucky with injuries to defenders but for some bizarre reason Mowbray failed to strengthen our forward line, it was obvious Armstrong would dry up, just can't get my head round how or why an experienced manager like Tony Mowbray didn't attempt to do something about it ages ago.

Otis · Mar 31, 2016

rupert_bear said:
The main reason imo for our downfall has been neglect of the forward line, yes we have been unlucky with injuries to defenders but for some bizarre reason Mowbray failed to strengthen our forward line, it was obvious Armstrong would dry up, just can't get my head round how or why an experienced manager like Tony Mowbray didn't attempt to do something about it ages ago.

Yep, it switched from the defence to the attack and he didn't really address it, other than bringing in Darius Henderson.

oucho · Mar 31, 2016

I said the same on post 1. Tuddy, LEA, MAF and Henderson were the backup strikers and have just 6 between them all season.

steve82 · Mar 31, 2016

rupert_bear said:
The main reason imo for our downfall has been neglect of the forward line, yes we have been unlucky with injuries to defenders but for some bizarre reason Mowbray failed to strengthen our forward line, it was obvious Armstrong would dry up, just can't get my head round how or why an experienced manager like Tony Mowbray didn't attempt to do something about it ages ago.

Otis said:
Yep, it switched from the defence to the attack and he didn't really address it, other than bringing in Darius Henderson.

We're correct we were putting too much on AA shoulders to carry the goal threat all season.
However not so sure TM did not look to address it. He brought in MAF and lateef elford-alliyu to push AA and Tudgay. Players who he knew from previous clubs. One being cheap, the other experienced and a different to Tudgay and AA. Both were free transfers.... Henderson... Free transfer.
Our only viable option was another free transfer due to us already having 6 loans in and with our defence in crisis with injuries loans plugged that gap. Not many goal scorers are available on a free at that time of year and a half decent players who's gonna get goals will command to high a fee.
TM was snookered at all angles leaving us frustrated just like him I hope.

Paxman II · Mar 31, 2016

Murphy by far has been TM's Achilles heel even though he scored a hatrick once and has produced some occasional brilliance. But his overall contribution is clearly not what TM keeps instilling into him. When I was just behind TM at Blackpool recently his frustration was clear to see regarding what Murphy was not doing.

oucho · Mar 31, 2016

Shame he keeps picking him then....maybe the loan deal with Norwich requires him to start him every game.

shy_tall_knight · Mar 31, 2016

This doesn't explain our downfall but we failed to maximise our points return despite dominating games, Swindon away, oldham at home, Sheffield away, southend at home at least 9 points lost there.

Also tas stated earlier the mix in our team needs to change to ensure we have a few more battlers/ fighters in the team. Another observation is that sometimes we try to play too much football, attempting slide rule passes when what is required is a more basic approach. Chesterfield away second half when chasing the game we overplayed whereas had we kept it simple got the ball out wide murphy was murdering their full back but we chose to try through balls that nearly worked.

Hopefully TM will learn from this.

coop · Apr 1, 2016

What winds me up is the owner's keep talking about FFS but 7 of the teams above maybe 8 have a worse attendance average than us so why can we not compete with the likes of Burton.

steve82 · Apr 1, 2016

coop said:
What winds me up is the owner's keep talking about FFS but 7 of the teams above maybe 8 have a worse attendance average than us so why can we not compete with the likes of Burton.

Burton are a totally different model to us on the pitch, they are a established team and been together for a few seasons. No Hero's in there team just 11 players playing for each other Many of them come from lower leagues so enjoying this moment in there careers.
A solid base was built over a few seasons.

italiahorse · Apr 1, 2016

steve82 said:
Burton are a totally different model to us on the pitch, they are a established team and been together for a few seasons. No Hero's in there team just 11 players playing for each other Many of them come from lower leagues so enjoying this moment in there careers.
A solid base was built over a few seasons.

Were they not in League 2 last year and have just gone straight through this division in a breeze.

Something is seriously wrong here. Sisu are clueless and it rubs off on everybody at the club.

steve82 · Apr 1, 2016

italiahorse said:
Were they not in League 2 last year and have just gone straight through this division in a breeze.

Something is seriously wrong here. Sisu are clueless and it rubs off on everybody at the club.

Yes correct, prior to that they had 3 failed play off attempts. They lost there key striker Adam Mcgurk also to Portsmouth in the summer also, but the key is the stability of there squad and they have built it over last few seasons.
League one and two are not worlds apart anymore.

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