Owning our own stadium is it really a must? (3 Viewers)

covboy1987 · Dec 27, 2016

Reading and London Irish RFC
Oxford Utd and London Welsh RFC
Bristol City and Bristol RFC
Swansea city and Osprey RFC
Milan and Internazionale
Roma and Lazio
Just a few teams above of many many more around the world that share some own and rent to the other or vice vera - for example Swansea the council own the stadium and rent to both the football and rugby and both are quite successful
I am a business person and own a medium sized business we do not own our premises but lease/rent like millions of other successful buinesses - we do not have to own our own premises to be successful - period What I do not get is that if it works around the world for millions of successful businesses, why do CCFC need to own their own stadium? reasons given 'to produce income' 'its the only way forwrad' - My simple maths say that if the reported rent at the Ricoh is currently £100,000 a season then going back a little, - Gillingham at home 28,000 crowd gate receipts a guess at £300,000 income? surely the gate receipts in one game have paid for the basic rental for the whole season? I would also think it would pay for any extra electric etc.
A business plan is a business plan and is set on income against expenditure - could it be that you sell more pies and drink owning your own ground? I still do not see great advantage and do not get the logic all I see is that sharing costs between seems to be the way forward as plainly owning our ground Highfield road previously did not work as the club were in financial meltdown - should lessons not have been learnt

chiefdave · Dec 27, 2016

The owners of London Irish are currently looking to move back to London (potentially to the ground in Brentford that was offered to Wasps).

London Welsh have already moved back to London after the move to Oxford nearly destroyed the club. Half their players have left and they may not make the end of the season.

Bristol RFC are technically tenants of the football team although they share the same billionaire owner, along with the local basketball team.

The deal Swansea have is very different to what we have ever had at the Ricoh, despite that they are currently looking to take ownership themselves.

The only club in the country that has been in the same position as us is Stockport and under that arrangement they have ended a 110 year run in the FL and are now in Conference North.

That said ownership is not essential. With the right deal and revenue access a tenancy agreement would be fine. However with the bond requirements Wasps have to meet the chances of us getting anywhere near to an acceptable deal are slim to say the least.

martcov · Dec 27, 2016

chiefdave said:
The owners of London Irish are currently looking to move back to London (potentially to the ground in Brentford that was offered to Wasps).

London Welsh have already moved back to London after the move to Oxford nearly destroyed the club. Half their players have left and they may not make the end of the season.

Bristol RFC are technically tenants of the football team although they share the same billionaire owner, along with the local basketball team.

The deal Swansea have is very different to what we have ever had at the Ricoh, despite that they are currently looking to take ownership themselves.

The only club in the country that has been in the same position as us is Stockport and under that arrangement they have ended a 110 year run in the FL and are now in Conference North.

That said ownership is not essential. With the right deal and revenue access a tenancy agreement would be fine. However with the bond requirements Wasps have to meet the chances of us getting anywhere near to an acceptable deal are slim to say the least.

Yes, and Leipzig is a rented one at the moment, but they have plans for an 80000 stadium. Their present rented one holds 44500.

If you have the capital, it seems a good idea to build your own. In Leipzig's case, even if renting a 44500 is ok, selling out an 80000 of your own is better. They have Champion's League ambitions, so a bit different to our situation.

hutch1972 · Dec 27, 2016

It's not ownership we need, its the ability to keep everything we sell regarding the football club.
Wasps don't actually own the Ricoh only the lease , but everything they generate belongs to them.
I'm sure covboy1987 that any profit you make doesn't all go to your landlord.

Bob Latchford · Dec 27, 2016

Think it's more of the match day revenue that's needed . ie food ,drink , car park etc .
Going on the current rent of £100,000 per season divided by 23 is only 4,300 per home game . let's say 9000 fans @ £15 = 135,000. so the rent is only a small out going . still gives you a profit of 130,000 . I don't doubt for a second they're making a tidy profit each home game .

Nick · Dec 27, 2016

Bob Latchford said:
Think it's more of the match day revenue that's needed . ie food ,drink , car park etc .
Going on the current rent of £100,000 per season divided by 23 is only 4,300 per home game . let's say 9000 fans @ £15 = 135,000. so the rent is only a small out going . still gives you a profit of 130,000 . I don't doubt for a second they're making a tidy profit each home game .

What about Matchday Costs?

chiefdave · Dec 27, 2016

Bob Latchford said:
Think it's more of the match day revenue that's needed . ie food ,drink , car park etc .
Going on the current rent of £100,000 per season divided by 23 is only 4,300 per home game . let's say 9000 fans @ £15 = 135,000. so the rent is only a small out going . still gives you a profit of 130,000 . I don't doubt for a second they're making a tidy profit each home game .

Indeed it is revenue. The way I look at it is owning a stadium costs a certain amount in maintenance and other costs per year and against that you get access to various revenue streams. Renting a stadium also brings costs in rent and matchday costs and against that you get access to limited revenues (in our case very limited).

The right rental deal could be near enough as good as ownership. The problem is there's little sign of Wasps being prepared to offer such a deal.

The matchday costs are increasing and, to use a favoured forum phrase, the goalposts are being shifted. Catering in hospitality is a prime example. We could be offered that on a per head cost at a price point that Wasps (via ACL or Compass) make a profit but we have room to add a mark up and make a profit ourselves. Instead we have to purchase as if every event has a sell out in hospitality and at close to retail. The end result being that even on a sell out we barely make anything, less than a sell out and there's a very real risk of making a loss.

rupert_bear · Dec 27, 2016

With the right owners renting the Ricoh could be okay or even buying. A share in the stadium as l said though if we got the right owner anything is thing is negotiable.

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Dec 27, 2016

Renting is fine if we have 365 unrestricted access to the venue and access to the revenue streams.

At the moment we get it for 3 hours on a match days and no revenues.

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Dec 27, 2016

covboy1987 said:
I am a business person and own a medium sized business we do not own our premises but lease/rent like millions of other successful buinesses - we do not have to own our own premises to be successful - period

Do you reckon you could be successful if you were only allowed to use the premises 25 days of the year for 3 hours at a time?
Also on the days you use it you only get about 20℅ of the revenues you make in that time.

torchomatic · Dec 27, 2016

Nick said:
What about Matchday Costs?

I'm sure he'll come back to you regarding that.

shmmeee · Dec 27, 2016

Bob Latchford said:
Think it's more of the match day revenue that's needed . ie food ,drink , car park etc .
Going on the current rent of £100,000 per season divided by 23 is only 4,300 per home game . let's say 9000 fans @ £15 = 135,000. so the rent is only a small out going . still gives you a profit of 130,000 . I don't doubt for a second they're making a tidy profit each home game .

Last I saw average ticket income was £9.50 per person so closer to £90k per game. Take off policing costs and stewarding.

Nick · Dec 27, 2016

torchomatic said:
I'm sure he'll come back to you regarding that.

Or not.

It's the same as revenue only needs to go on transfers.

ccfc92 · Dec 27, 2016

Nick said:
What about Matchday Costs?

How much are the matchday costs out if interest?

Otis · Dec 27, 2016

As OSB has alluded to on many, many occasions, there is nothing to stop Sisu building revenue generating facilities elsewhere (conference, events halls, banqueting, wedding, party, social). They can build stuff that can bring in 365 day a year revenue.

They can even rent space for events and achieve revenue that way.

Owning our own stadium would be great, but it is not the be all and end all of everything.

stupot07 · Dec 27, 2016

ccfc92 said:
How much are the matchday costs out if interest?

They were about £12k per game when acl wanted to negotiate before went to sixfields. That excludes stewarding and policing as we pay that directly.

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Kingokings204 · Dec 27, 2016

Otis said:
As OSB has alluded to on many, many occasions, there is nothing to stop Sisu building revenue generating facilities elsewhere (conference, events halls, banqueting, wedding, party, social). They can build stuff that can bring in 365 day a year revenue.

They can even rent space for events and achieve revenue that way.

Owning our own stadium would be great, but it is not the be all and end all of everything.

Exactly, owning a stadium would be fantastic but with the cards we have renting for 100k a year is a start and needs improving.

We can rent anywhere and make money that way all you're doing is splitting the location between revenues and a match day.

Turn Ryton into a club shop and make some conference rooms there or something. Not like slade needs an office is it. He needs to be on the training pitch

chiefdave · Dec 27, 2016

stupot07 said:
They were about £12k per game when acl wanted to negotiate before went to sixfields.

That ties in with what I was told which was £400K a season before the move to Sixfields but included what we paid for directly.

I was told there was an increase when we returned as we were having to pay for things that were included in the old lease such as match day parking for players, media etc.

Then last season I was told there was a significant increase. Things like charging extra per block opened, selling things in at a retail price. Basically anything they could get away with without being in breach of contract.

Covstu · Dec 27, 2016

Personally think if we want a secure long term future we need some assets to our name, the ground is key to this. I would have been happy with a 50/50 arrangement with wasps back in the day but too much water has gone under that bridge now. To build other venues elsewhere to generate this revenue doesn't work over it being connected to the ground (helps if the club is successful however).

covboy1987 · Dec 27, 2016

hutch1972 said:
It's not ownership we need, its the ability to keep everything we sell regarding the football club.
Wasps don't actually own the Ricoh only the lease , but everything they generate belongs to them.
I'm sure covboy1987 that any profit you make doesn't all go to your landlord.

covboy1987 · Dec 27, 2016

SkyBlue_Bear83 said:
Do you reckon you could be successful if you were only allowed to use the premises 25 days of the year for 3 hours at a time?
Also on the days you use it you only get about 20℅ of the revenues you make in that time.

anything is possible if you got as far as the premier league and the money being thrown about

Nick · Dec 27, 2016

covboy1987 said:
anything is possible if you got as far as the premier league and the money being thrown about

Where does the hundreds of millions come to get there?

ceetee · Dec 27, 2016

You don't need to own the ground but you do need to have access to revenue generating opportunities.

Would someone remind us why Wasps moved to the Ricoh...

Grendel · Dec 27, 2016

Otis said:
As OSB has alluded to on many, many occasions, there is nothing to stop Sisu building revenue generating facilities elsewhere (conference, events halls, banqueting, wedding, party, social). They can build stuff that can bring in 365 day a year revenue.

They can even rent space for events and achieve revenue that way.

Owning our own stadium would be great, but it is not the be all and end all of everything.

I can't think of a single football club that would do that.

I certainly would say that without doubt the biggest deferent to a new owner wouldn't be buying out sisu but coming up with a business model that works in a ground that's owned by a rival company.

It's an impossible situation.

Otis · Dec 27, 2016

Grendel said:
I can't think of a single football club that would do that.

I certainly would say that without doubt the biggest deferent to a new owner wouldn't be buying out sisu but coming up with a business model that works in a ground that's owned by a rival company.

It's an impossible situation.

I'm sure you can't think of a single club that would do that.

Is there another club in the situation we are in though?

Surely you consider anything and everything to try and generate revenue.

It IS an impossible situation because Sisu have absolutely no intention of building a stadium.

Grendel · Dec 27, 2016

Otis said:
I'm sure you can't think of a single club that would do that.

Is there another club in the situation we are in though?

Surely you consider anything and everything to try and generate revenue.

It IS an impossible situation because Sisu have absolutely no intention of building a stadium.

No because I can't think of any football club that has the huge restrictions we have.

Events are organised at the place you play as its brand association and higher profit margins.

OSB comes across as a lot better than many accounts when offering business advice but that particular idea I believe is very much a financial view rather than a real world view.

No I can't believe any professional clubs hire venues to achieve increased revenues.

Como · Dec 27, 2016

Let us say their is an ideal site.

And planning permission can be obtained.

So then you need to borrow however tens of millions it would cost, who would be willing to lend that?

You find a finacial backer and now you have a new ground but with a lot of debt to service, so you need to increase by a few millions a year just to break even with the current cheap option.

All seems very unlikely.

torchomatic · Dec 27, 2016

I would say owning our own stadium is absolutely vital for the future of our football club.

Otis · Dec 27, 2016

torchomatic said:
I would say owning our own stadium is absolutely vital for the future of our football club.

But then you have to agree it is not going to happen with Sisu at the helm.

As they seemingly have no intention of leaving we are truly buggered.

Grendel · Dec 27, 2016

Otis said:
But then you have to agree it is not going to happen with Sisu at the helm.

As they seemingly have no intention of leaving we are truly buggered.

Therefore you have to agree signing a deal to remain at the Ricoh long term would be catastrophic

Kingokings204 · Dec 27, 2016

torchomatic said:
I would say owning our own stadium is absolutely vital for the future of our football club.

If you believe so then we need new owners yeah?

torchomatic · Dec 27, 2016

Kingokings204 said:
If you believe so then we need new owners yeah?

Absolutely. I've never said we should stick with SISU. I've always said selling to Wasps has just prolonged their ownership.

Kingokings204 · Dec 27, 2016

Grendel said:
Therefore you have to agree signing a deal to remain at the Ricoh long term would be catastrophic

Depends how you define long term?

torchomatic · Dec 27, 2016

Otis said:
But then you have to agree it is not going to happen with Sisu at the helm.

As they seemingly have no intention of leaving we are truly buggered.

Yep, see my other reply. The selling of the stadium will have a much bigger impact on CCFC than SISU ever will.

Kingokings204 · Dec 27, 2016

torchomatic said:
Absolutely. I've never said we should stick with SISU. I've always said selling to Wasps has just prolonged their ownership.

I still think the Ricoh is the answer for now. Secures our future and I'm sure get out clauses if we do find people who want to take us on with a stadium.

Owning our own stadium is it really a must? (3 Viewers)

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