Paul Ince is he deluded or does he have a point? (11 Viewers)

Huckerby · Oct 1, 2014

mrtrench said:
Nobody is suggesting that black managers should be given roles they are not qualified for or that they should be appointed when a white manager more suitable for the position is available. Ince isn't suggesting that. The Rooney Rule doesn't suggest that. The only people suggesting that are the people justifying their positions by leaping to an extreme to make it sound ridiculous.

What is clearly the case is that given the statistics, which nobody here has disputed, there is obviously implicit racism in the system. If you think that is ok then of course you may have your opinion but please don't jump through completely illogical and fabricated hoops to try and justify yourselves.

If like me you think that it's not ok then clearly something has to be done. But what? Why not force clubs to at least interview a black candidate? I'm sure there is little explicit racism and so some clubs may find that they are impressed and find a better manager as a result.

What the hell are you talking about? How can you make the conclusion that, just because statistically there are less black managers, that there is an implicit racism in the system? The statistic DOES NOT mean there is causality between the two.

That's like finding a statistic that there are more footballers with dark hair than light hair which means there is an implicit discrimination against people with light hair. That is the EXACT same logic!

Racism is a huge problem in a lot of places. This is not one of them and bullshit arguments like yours undermine the wider problem in my opinion.

hill83 · Oct 1, 2014

A few quotes from a few people. Just for a bit of balance.

Jason Roberts: "My uncle, Cyrille Regis, did his badges but did not even get an interview."

Michael Johnson began acquiring coaching qualifications towards the end of a 600-match career played at all levels for Birmingham, Derby and Notts County. He went all the way to Pro Licence, and supplemented this with the Warwick qualification. He then had two years as youth-team manager at Notts County only to be sacked after one of the club’s many managerial changes. He has since applied for 30 jobs and been offered two interviews, one at non-league level, one at an academy. Neither resulted in a job offer. While he waits for an opening, he coaches part-time at Birmingham’s academy and is taking a course in governance and another in business.

“It demoralises you,” he said. “I don’t want favours. I want a level playing field. I’ve earned my qualifications, but I feel I am not getting the rewards. I don’t want to suggest it is because of the colour of my skin but I don’t feel we are getting the opportunities we are given as players.”

Brian Deane:

"I retired in 2006, and the longer I stayed out of the game, the more I realised I wanted to get back in. For me, that meant going into coaching, because I didn't see myself as an agent, or working in admin. I felt I had a lot to offer - at West Ham, I would mentor young guys like Anton Ferdinand, Jermain Defoe, Nigel Reo-Coker. At Leicester, it was the same with young lads like Jordan Stewart or Matt Piper. I gave them as much advice as I could. I wanted them to avoid the pitfalls that I fell into.

A year or so after retiring, I started to do my coaching badges. I reached my UEFA B and needed to do some hours on the training pitch. I spoke to one guy I knew, and asked if I could come to his club, and practise down there. Unfortunately, there was a bit of resistance above him. I don't know if they thought I was after the manager's job, or what."

"I applied for a couple of jobs in England, and didn't even get a reply. They were management posts in the lower leagues. I'd done my UEFA A Licence, I felt I was ready, so it was disappointing."

So by the end of his career in 1993, [Ricky] Hill decided he would go into coaching, hopeful of his chances to work at the highest level in England.

But after 21 years, 40 job applications and only one club bothering to acknowledge his letters—Manchester United, which was “going in a different direction”—Hill is still waiting. “I would hate to think that one’s color is an obstacle,” says Hill, now first team coach with the Tampa Bay Rowdies, a club in the North American Soccer League, “but it has to be discussed.”

Hill can reel off a list of names of black ex-players of his vintage whose dreams of a managerial career were kicked to the kerb without respect or acknowledgement.

“Vince Hilaire, Bob Hazell, Luther Blissett, Cyrille Regis, Mark Chamberlain,” Hill said yesterday. “I could go on and on and on.

“We were all fooled into believing that if we went through the proper channels and got our coaching badges, we would be fully armed to get an opportunity.

“That was the rhetoric anyway. It is probably still the rhetoric now. Those black players got their badges and now they’re sitting in a drawer somewhere or lying discarded on the floor.”

I'm not sure why people are against the totally harmless practice of offering an interview.

Colonel Mustard · Oct 1, 2014

Huckerby said:
That's like finding a statistic that there are more footballers with dark hair than light hair which means there is an implicit discrimination against people with light hair. That is the EXACT same logic!

Except that it is made-up non-logic. There is no such statistic, and the argument isn't about players but managers.

covcity4life · Oct 1, 2014

huckerby votes UKIP out of protest.

Evo1883 · Oct 1, 2014

David james said and i quote " there are not enough black managers around because there are not any that are good enough to manage , it is not a race issue , on my coaching courses , other than myself there were no black people on the course "
stop bringing race into everything , why are there no chinese managers in the FOotball league , im outraged

covcity4life · Oct 1, 2014

CraigSBA said:
David james said and i quote " there are not enough black managers around because there are not any that are good enough to manage , it is not a race issue , on my coaching courses , other than myself there were no black people on the course "
stop bringing race into everything , why are there no chinese managers in the FOotball league , im outraged

wait so the quotes above mean nothing,but one quote from james proves your point?

ok.

Kingokings204 · Oct 1, 2014

CraigSBA said:
David james said and i quote " there are not enough black managers around because there are not any that are good enough to manage , it is not a race issue , on my coaching courses , other than myself there were no black people on the course "
stop bringing race into everything , why are there no chinese managers in the FOotball league , im outraged

Completely agree 100%. Why no Oriental people?

why no managers in the 20's? is this ageist?

stupot07 · Oct 1, 2014

Kingokings204 said:
Completely agree 100%. Why no Oriental people?

why no managers in the 20's? is this ageist?

How many oriental players are there? No managers in their 20's - that's because they're still playing football and not looking to get into management at that point.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

Colonel Mustard · Oct 1, 2014

Kingokings204 said:
Completely agree 100%. Why no Oriental people?

why no managers in the 20's? is this ageist?

False equivalence.

1. The proportion of 'oriental' managers to players is consistent.
2. This is about race, not age. Even if it were, 20-somethings would be perceived as inexperienced, regardless of race. Nobody has a problem with somebody being disqualified for a job on that ground.

Colonel Mustard · Oct 1, 2014

CraigSBA said:
David james said and i quote " there are not enough black managers around because there are not any that are good enough to manage , it is not a race issue , on my coaching courses , other than myself there were no black people on the course "

David James is thick.

Huckerby · Oct 1, 2014

And Im sure there are many white ex-footballers who were rejected from just as many jobs and didn't get interviews.

They just don't cry discrimination about it.

Huckerby · Oct 1, 2014

If you can ignore the spelling mistakes, and look past the fact its written in the Daily Mail which I'd usually say has as much credibility as The Beano, this artcile has some good points: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2065754/The-lack-black-football-managers-racism.html

Looking at it the other way, 1/4 of all players are black....yet represent only 2% of the English population...so does this mean they are over represented and white/English players are discriminated against?

NO. It just so fucking happens that they are probably better footballers at this moment in time, which is probably the opposite to the managers.

hill83 · Oct 1, 2014

Huckerby said:
And Im sure there are many white ex-footballers who were rejected from just as many jobs and didn't get interviews.

They just don't cry discrimination about it.

Probably, and this might be difficult for you to understand. But probably because it definitely wouldn't have been discrimination.

stupot07 · Oct 1, 2014

Huckerby said:
If you can ignore the spelling mistakes, and look past the fact its written in the Daily Mail which I'd usually say has as much credibility as The Beano, this artcile has some good points: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2065754/The-lack-black-football-managers-racism.html

Looking at it the other way, 1/4 of all players are black....yet represent only 2% of the English population...so does this mean they are over represented and white/English players are discriminated against?

NO. It just so fucking happens that they are probably better footballers at this moment in time, which is probably the opposite to the managers.

Yet only 2% of the current serving managers are black.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

savosdad · Oct 1, 2014

Yes bring it on we can also have Black Players

Colonel Mustard · Oct 1, 2014

Huckerby said:
If you can ignore the spelling mistakes, and look past the fact its written in the Daily Mail which I'd usually say has as much credibility as The Beano, this artcile has some good points: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2065754/The-lack-black-football-managers-racism.html

Looking at it the other way, 1/4 of all players are black....yet represent only 2% of the English population...so does this mean they are over represented and white/English players are discriminated against?

Yes, it does mean that black players are over-represented, but that does not in turn mean that white players are being discriminated against. That is a non-sequitur and, as you initially implied, is the kind of journalism to expect from the Daily Mail.

NO. It just so fucking happens that they are probably better footballers at this moment in time, which is probably the opposite to the managers.

How do you know? That is the whole problem--black players are not getting the opportunity to manage. For all the decent white managers, there's an awful lot more dross. For chrissakes, Andy Thorn got to manage TWO clubs!

mrtrench · Oct 1, 2014

Huckerby said:
What the hell are you talking about? How can you make the conclusion that, just because statistically there are less black managers, that there is an implicit racism in the system? The statistic DOES NOT mean there is causality between the two.

We are not going to agree whilst you have such a poor understanding of statistics. Start with this: http://www.ehow.com/how_5570895_understand-hypothesis-testing.html. Now consider that the sample size we have here is very big.

stupot07 · Oct 1, 2014

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...football-looking-hideously-white-9244938.html

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

Huckerby · Oct 1, 2014

Colonel Mustard said:
Yes, it does mean that black players are over-represented, but that does not in turn mean that white players are being discriminated against. That is a non-sequitur and, as you initially implied, is the kind of journalism to expect from the Daily Mail.

Now take that same logic and apply it to your own argument. Yes, black managers are under-represented, but that does not in turn that white managers are being favoured or that black managers are being discriminated against. It's the same thing!!!

mrtrench said:
We are not going to agree whilst you have such a poor understanding of statistics. Start with this: http://www.ehow.com/how_5570895_understand-hypothesis-testing.html. Now consider that the sample size we have here is very big.

I have an Msc in Applied Economics....I understand statistics thanks. Please tell me how that strengthens your argument? It has been highlighted that some people who have applied for a lot of managerial jobs are black. That is all right? Yet you conclude that this means there is an obvious implicit racism in football. And that clubs should be forced to interview a black candidate. That is the most pathetic thing I've ever heard

Huckerby · Oct 1, 2014

hill83 said:
Probably, and this might be difficult for you to understand. But probably because it definitely wouldn't have been discrimination.

Why? I'm sure they could have picked something different about themselves to blame it on other than the fact they perhaps just plain and simple weren't right for the job?

Nick · Oct 1, 2014

hill83 said:
Probably, and this might be difficult for you to understand. But probably because it definitely wouldn't have been discrimination.

White people can be discriminated against too can't they? Can't jump though!

SkyblueBazza · Oct 1, 2014

mrtrench said:
No he isn't. Try this one:

All cats are animals. Some animals are grey. Does that imply that all cats are grey?

No it doesn't.
And how many cats (or cat's to some!) are football managers?

PUSB

Nick · Oct 1, 2014

hill83 said:
A few quotes from a few people. Just for a bit of balance.

I'm not sure why people are against the totally harmless practice of offering an interview.

To be fair, if that guy was applying for the man utd job it makes you wonder what else he was trying.

SkyblueBazza · Oct 1, 2014

skybluetony176 said:
So you're saying that discrimination can be positive?

I reckon it can be.
For example: personally I would certainly discriminate in favour of a black pilot, to fly the 'plane when I go on my next summer holiday, over a white taxi driver flying it!

PUSB

hill83 · Oct 1, 2014

Huckerby said:
Why? I'm sure they could have picked something different about themselves to blame it on other than the fact they perhaps just plain and simple weren't right for the job?

This isn't about 'right for the job' it's about getting the chance to show if you are right for the job. Nobody is going to be handing out jobs to people that can't do it.

hill83 · Oct 1, 2014

Nick said:
White people can be discriminated against too can't they? Can't jump though!

That's not what I'm saying at all.

Huckerby · Oct 1, 2014

hill83 said:
This isn't about 'right for the job' it's about getting the chance to show if you are right for the job. Nobody is going to be handing out jobs to people that can't do it.

Nor are they going to be handing out interviews to candidates they don't think can do it. Whether thats because of their application (I have no idea how you would even apply for a coaching/managers job) or experience or whatever.

I've been rejected without being invited to interview for loads of jobs. They MUST be discriminating against me because I have Irish Heritage. Must be. No other explanation for it.

hill83 · Oct 1, 2014

This basically all comes down the one thing. And I'll leave it after this.

There may or may not be a problem. It doesn't do any harm trying to address it.
But as soon as a potential issue is raised it's all "Race card this, stop moaning, race card that"
No normal person wants to use the so called 'race card'. Saying people use that when they are expressing legitimate concerns is as bad as people who actually use it. It undermines genuine issues that many refuse to acknowledge exist.

hill83 · Oct 1, 2014

Huckerby said:
Nor are they going to be handing out interviews to candidates they don't think can do it. Whether thats because of their application (I have no idea how you would even apply for a coaching/managers job) or experience or whatever.

I've been rejected without being invited to interview for loads of jobs. They MUST be discriminating against me because I have Irish Heritage. Must be. No other explanation for it.

I used to work for a recruitment company and I've seen with my own eyes CVs rejected purely based on foreign sounding names. You can believe me or not but it does happen. Cold hard truths. That's not to say that this is a rule.

SkyblueBazza · Oct 1, 2014

hill83 said:
I used to work for a recruitment company and I've seen with my own eyes CVs rejected purely based on foreign sounding names. You can believe me or not but it does happen. Cold hard truths. That's not to say that this is a rule.

Maybe a reality in a great many cases. Like how many women serve tables in Indian restaurants? How many white people? Do they ever gain interviews? Or is that acceptable to some?
Personally I think all we can realistically do is lead by example. So I treat everyone as an equal...& show everyone the respect I feel they deserve according to how they treat me.

PUSB

Colonel Mustard · Oct 1, 2014

Huckerby said:
Now take that same logic and apply it to your own argument. Yes, black managers are under-represented, but that does not in turn that white managers are being favoured or that black managers are being discriminated against. It's the same thing!!!

Um.

It wasn't logical. It was a non-sequitur. So it shouldn't be applied to my argument or any other.

So no, it's not the same thing.

skybluebal · Oct 2, 2014

Do we know the statistics of how many qualified coaches there are to test this? How many are black, white, brown, pink, yellow - whatever! how many women? which leagues in the pyramid are they working in? what successes have they had?

Everyone must agree that they want the best person for the job. The best way to demonstrate this is with success, success comes from learning your trade and that does not mean starting in the premier league as the general impression seems to be. Where did Martin O'Neil start? where did Jimmy Hill start? and no doubt many others, they started in the lower leagues. How many good English (whichever colour) coaches get the chance to stay in the Premier League, how many were ditched after getting promotion in favour of foreign coaches?

A big issue in my opinion is how few of our coaches and players have experience abroad and actually achieved something while out there. The FA should be encouraging more of this and supporting such moves. They will return to England and bring that knowledge and experience back with them.

I grew up through the 60s-70s and the only way to break these ceilings is to work harder and show you are the best for the role you are after. I know from experience that you get to a point that success and performance far outweighs racial viewpoints, especially as you meet people who are more enlightened and are looking for the best candidate. I believe that the vast majority of football club chairmen want success and don't care the colour of the person who brings it.

I would say to any wannabe football manager, to start where you can, build your experience and reputation, then you will be head-hunted and eventually the higher league opportunities will come.

Positive discrimination for jobs is not the right approach, in my opinion, especially as things have moved a long way since the 60s/70s.

lordsummerisle · Oct 2, 2014

hill83 said:
Nobody is going to be handing out jobs to people that can't do it.

Not been a Cov fan for long then I take it?

Astute · Oct 2, 2014

hill83 said:
I used to work for a recruitment company and I've seen with my own eyes CVs rejected purely based on foreign sounding names. You can believe me or not but it does happen. Cold hard truths. That's not to say that this is a rule.

How did you manage to get a job in a racist organisation? :thinking about:

My place is the total opposite. We recently had 12 jobs advertised. There was nearly 1,000 applicants. Two of them were black. Both of them got a job. One is good at his job. One is absolutely hopeless. But it has brought our associate count that are black to 4. This is less than 1%. It sounds bad but it isn't. You can go weeks without seeing a black person. But we are supposed to have a certain amount of black people and women.

Racism isn't dead. But it is getting better. My eldest is half indian. Some of my elder relatives were the worse. Other times have made me laugh. Like once I was in a pub where racist comments were being made. Got into a row with a few of them. Then my eldest walked in. She is good looking, slim and 5'9". They were drooling all over her. Some didn't know she was my daughter. I then reminded them about the racist remarks they had been making before she walked in

Evo1883 · Oct 2, 2014

covcity4life said:
wait so the quotes above mean nothing,but one quote from james proves your point?

But the 3 quotes from hill do mean anything , im sorry , how about jobs in england where white english people are being banged down the list like the police force or PCSO s , or royal mail , wh e i was told the other day there is no point applying as im white british lol , how silly .
you talk about racism and everybody does like its a one way thing , it really really isnt , there are some very powerful people in england who are black ..does it bother me ..no , do i think about it as a race thing ..no .
normally the job goes to the best person qualified , im sorry but clubs are not about to offer jobs to black managers that are not as good or experienced as the other person that went for the job

So yes this has come out like i edited cc4lfs post lol , sorry

ok.

Paul Ince is he deluded or does he have a point? (11 Viewers)

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