Grendel
Well-Known Member
Equality in sport I assume
??????
Equality in sport I assume
On what basis would you describe the Portland story or the oen reported by the OP as "harm"? Although rather comical can't see that anyone is harmed in either case.
Right
Look at Sharon Davies and her Twitter campaign which is trying to preserve women only sport. Transgender in sport will destroy women’s equality
So where should transgender athletes compete?
If it was me I’d engage a bit of self awareness and realise that if I was a man who transitioned into a woman it would be unfair for me to compete in women’s sport. So I wouldn’t.
People need to take some responsibility.
Is it unfair for biologically female athletes with extra high testosterone levels to compete with other women?
That’s a whole other conversation. And I don’t have a answer to that.
My initial thoughts would be no. As every athlete has their advantages and disadvantages.
Is it unfair for biologically female athletes with extra high testosterone levels to compete with other women?
Right, so is there a significant difference between that scenario and a transgender woman with a similar hormonal balance and physique?
The discussion is men who identify as women are actually men and compete against women
I'm talking about men who have undergone hormone replacement therapy and surgery in order to have the similar physical and hormonal characteristics of a masculine woman. I'm not including athletes before their transition.
Renee Richards then? How about Rachael McKinnon?
Which leads me to ask the question , which toilets do transgender folk use at football matches, if indeed any actually go? ( To the football)
If they do go, do they dress down for the occasion ?
Shouldn't football clubs sell transgender shirts : slimfitting for the ladies which are I fact slightly larger, and men's shirts that are actually slimmer. Or just swap the labels over.
Where have I said that?
But clearly some people do as detailed in this thread.
Answer the question, why can’t I identify as a different age but I can a different sex? I find that level of misogyny “a bit off” to be fair. Women exist.
Is it unfair for biologically female athletes with extra high testosterone levels to compete with other women?
image of this has me giggling so muchImagine somebody like Dillian Whyte declaring they are female and fighting a woman.
Can it be Katie Hopkins, please???Imagine somebody like Dillian Whyte declaring they are female and fighting a woman.
Imagine somebody like Dillian Whyte declaring they are female and fighting a woman.
That’s not even comparable. There is an issue with CAIS athletes like Caster Semenia (sp?) who shouldn’t be competing against women. But no standard XX female has testosterone even close to a trans woman.
Also studies show it’s the massive boost men get at puberty that causes most of the difference and that never goes away.
It is comparable both have had the 'benefit' of high testosterone for most of their existence and under the new rules would need to significantly ramp these down before being allowed to compete. Semanya was born a woman but due to genetic abnormalities has much more of a masculine physique-but you want her out of women's sport as well?
Sorry I don't really get where you're coming from.
How about if Michael Phelps went through transgender surgery - would this be a reasonable situation if Michael became Michelle and competed against women swimmers?
Is the assumption here that male athletes are undergoing sex changes to win titles?
It’s regarding fairness and a genuine fear from women athletes that their sports will ultimately be destroyed if transgender athletes are allowed to compete as they will always have an advantage
Is the assumption here that male athletes are undergoing sex changes to win titles?
Which is why the rules are tightening on it considerably as they are with other ways to gain a dishonest edge. Even Semanya who has been female her whole life will have to suppress her own testosterone levels. Genetic predispositions towards excelling in different disciplines are no secret-just some aren't as visually apparent as a heavily built woman
Will basketball players be made to play on their knees? Or could a load of those circus people on stilts play?
It is comparable both have had the 'benefit' of high testosterone for most of their existence and under the new rules would need to significantly ramp these down before being allowed to compete. Semanya was born a woman but due to genetic abnormalities has much more of a masculine physique-but you want her out of women's sport as well?
Sorry I don't really get where you're coming from.
It’s really not relatively simple stuff. Maybe your mate is great and no danger, but we segregate the sexes for numerous reasons, privacy, religion, and most obviously the strength differential. Should he be allowed in a women’s prison fully intact? Should he be allowed to compete in women’s sports? Should a deeply religious beautician be forced to handle his genitals if she offers female waxing? Take a grant designed to promote women in an industry they are underrepresented in? These are not simple questions and a default of “just be nice” completely fails to take these into account. I’d also say that as blokes it’s really not our call to make.
Women should be allowed a say as to whether their rights are removed. Your mate will always be Male and there’s no congruent reason for them to be allowed access to women’s spaces. He should be safe in Male spaces just like I should if I just decided I look good with long hair and wearing a dress. That’s the fight to have, no forcing women to budge up because he’s uncomfortable.
Moreover the idea that being a woman is a state of mind is horrifically offensive. He has no idea what it feels like to be a woman, any more than I know what it feels like to be black. The best he can do is relate to a stereotypical view of womanhood based on sexist stereotypes.
I support him in doing whatever he wants in his life as long as it doesn’t infringe on others rights and I hope he finds peace. Obviously out of politeness I’d use his preferred pronouns in person, but I value fact and scientific accuracy and I don’t believe we should make laws based on woo. I was also raised with a deeply held belief that a woman’s biology doesn’t predict their interests and personality and to accept modern gender ideology is to throw that out the window.
I believe it is fairly simple but there are certain areas that do complicate matters. As a fully intact 'male' it would certainly require certain modifications to a womens prison, Any beautician can refuse to treat anyone regardless of gender and yes I do believe a transgender person should be eligible to take a grant - why not?
I do agree that women should be allowed say but I find it rather patronising that you feel the need to say it. Regarding a safe male space do you really think that a pre-op transgender person would feel safe in a male urinal at a football match for instance? As I've said I would feel far safer in the womens toilet with a transgender person in the ladies than the coked, beered up morons at games.
I'm not sure why you find that being a woman is a state of mind horrifically offensive - I don't.
Neither can you know what it feels like to be transgender - all you can do is relate to a stereotypical view of how he/she feels
Not quite sure how if a woman's biology does predict interests and personallity then surely it is a state of mind. Must say it is very kind of you to speak up for women but trust me women are quite capable of doing it themselves.
Caster is XY and intersex I believe. I’ll be honest I haven’t followed her case closely. But yes, there’s a reasonable case that people with her condition have an unfair advantage. Intersex athletes are massively over represented in sport. It’s a tough case and I feel for the women effected, but yes if there’s evidence they have an unfair advantage they should have their own category.
Why you put benefits in scare quotes is beyond me, the impact of testosterone is well studied. The difference between male and female physique is stark and well documented: Harder, better, faster, stronger: why we must protect female sports
The issue is you’ve started with a nice thing to say to make trans people feel better “trans women are women” and worked as if it’s scientific fact. When it’s not. Now you find yourself arguing that men don’t have a physical advantage which is clear nonsense. This is a good overview of the science behind testosterone and Male physical advantage: Dr Emma Hilton reviews the science supporting the IOC decision to let male-born transgender athletes into female competition. • Fair Play For Women
You can protect trans people without throwing science in the bin.
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