Pens (3 Viewers)

Pezza · Jun 1, 2023

I know I’m still bitter and salty about it but Sevilla last night won pens, again they went first and again they were shooting in front of their own fans…. I’m sorry but pens shouldn’t get both!
Maybe Luton still go through but surely make it fair?
It’s something like 65% chance of winning when going first and I’d imagine even higher against own fans.

Mdyer1985 · Jun 1, 2023

Talking about pens my mate came up with another way a shootout could be decided
He was saying that all 11 players take a pen and if there had been a sending off you only get 10 and basically it would work like match play in golf like 1 up or 2 up this way it would be a more team game and less chance of one fall guy at the end .

ceetee · Jun 1, 2023

I agree.. You win the toss you decide whether to go first or which end.

torchomatic · Jun 1, 2023

I remember an idea where pens were taken prior to the game. Not sure that would have necessarily been a good idea.

Garlana86 · Jun 1, 2023

Pezza said:
I know I’m still bitter and salty about it but Sevilla last night won pens, again they went first and again they were shooting in front of their own fans…. I’m sorry but pens shouldn’t get both!
Maybe Luton still go through but surely make it fair?
It’s something like 65% chance of winning when going first and I’d imagine even higher against own fans.

I thought exactly the same, if you get the fans the other team get to pick the order. Rediculous to let the flip of a coin dictate your (in most cases) downfall.

shmmeee · Jun 1, 2023

It always used to be one throw didn’t it? Why is it two now? Do they do that at kick off for ends as well?

EalingSB · Jun 1, 2023

From this University of Berekeley paper: There is a well-known “first shooter advantage”: other aspects being equal, the team to shoot first has a probability of between 60% and 70% of winning.

A piece in The Athletic said the rule to have two tosses was introduced at the 2016 IFAB Annual General Meeting for the Laws of the Game. The rule change occured to be fair to both teams participating in the shootout. The Athletic understands that many referees had already been adopting this practice prior to the formalised rule change as they could otherwise be perceived as giving an unfair advantage to one team.

It was determined that referees were still under pressure, however, and found it difficult to decide which goal to use with home supporters at one end and away supporters at the other end. Thus, apart from some overriding considerations (such as security or pitch conditions) the fairest method to decide which end to take the penalties was seen to be by tossing a coin.

Sky_Blue_Daz · Jun 1, 2023

Or you designate one player to take all of them

OffenhamSkyBlue · Jun 1, 2023

A point my GLW raised on Sat was about the fairness of taking the first (or second) penalty. I recall they trialled the ABBA system in some league or competition a few years back, but it never got rolled out more widely. Anyone know why?

JimmyHillsbeard · Jun 1, 2023

Given that all the players stand on the centre line I’ve never understood why penalties need to be taken at the same end. Teams could get the choice to shoot into either goal in front of their own fans. It wouldn’t take anymore time and wouldn’t disadvantage the side that lost the toss.

All of which reminds me. I’ve now seen us lose three penalty shootouts
1) Sheffield United in 1998; we won the toss but S Yorks Police intervened and insisted they took place in front of the Blades fans!

2) Bham City three years ago. We were forced to take penalties in front on an empty terrace, except the Blues fans poured out of the side stand and stood behind the goal instead.

3) Saturday when we apparently lost both coin flips for the end they were taken and then who went first. This confirms that Liam Kelly appears to be a terrible tosser.

EalingSB · Jun 1, 2023

OffenhamSkyBlue said:
A point my GLW raised on Sat was about the fairness of taking the first (or second) penalty. I recall they trialled the ABBA system in some league or competition a few years back, but it never got rolled out more widely. Anyone know why?

I was going to write about the ABBA system in my post above but couldn't really find why FIFA ended the trial although there was a Times article about it. I was surprised to see Luton get the double advantage on Saturday but reading back it happened to Spain when they had the EURO semi-final shoot-out v Italy.

Seaside-Skyblue · Jun 1, 2023

Why can't both goals be used? A keeper in each, both teams shooting in separate goals in front of own fans.

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andrew.roberts · Jun 1, 2023

I still believe that the golden goal is a fair alternative. If no goal has been scored after 5 minutes take off a player from each side and then continue with that rule until the goal is scored. The game would become more open as it progressed. I know it's not perfect but surely anything is preferable to penalties

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Robinshio · Jun 1, 2023

But if we won we would love it. Can only remember one win on pens and that was a checkatrade game

SkyBlueCharlie9 · Jun 1, 2023

Why can't they wheel in a practise goal to halfway line mark a pen spot before match so everyone can see better....its fairer for all. Combine it with the ABBA system also.
I'm not bitter tho!!!!

shmmeee · Jun 1, 2023

Pens are bollocks aren’t they let’s be honest? Even if it feels great when you win.

Not actually that entertaining either. I like golden goal with the reducing players thing. If just for the comedy of two knackered goalies trying to score past each other.

Mucca Mad Boys · Jun 1, 2023

Extra-time has become a bit of a waste of time, especially with the extra substitutes. Being able to make 6 substitutes is too many, it keeps teams too fresh and reduces the likelihood of mistakes.

With no golden/silver goal, there's little incentive to go out and win the game in extra time as teams don't want to take any risks when penalties is more or less 50:50.

Tomh111 · Jun 1, 2023

You can't practice penalties but you can prepare.

Every player in the squad during the playoffs should have been doing practice and building routine. Make it automatic and muscle memory kicks in.

Simple things like having the order pre determined, having the players decide in advance where they are going, how many steps they take, how they breathe and pause as they take it etc.

I got the feeling that we weren't as prepared as we should have been, when the players were looking at the bench it is not a good start.

The whole process has to be stress free and Provide clarity for the players.

covcity4life · Jun 1, 2023

Pezza said:
I know I’m still bitter and salty about it but Sevilla last night won pens, again they went first and again they were shooting in front of their own fans…. I’m sorry but pens shouldn’t get both!
Maybe Luton still go through but surely make it fair?
It’s something like 65% chance of winning when going first and I’d imagine even higher against own fans.

Don't know why they abandoned the ABBA system so soon

Cue shit Swedish jokes

shmmeee · Jun 1, 2023

Tomh111 said:
You can't practice penalties but you can prepare.

Every player in the squad during the playoffs should have been doing practice and building routine. Make it automatic and muscle memory kicks in.

Simple things like having the order pre determined, having the players decide in advance where they are going, how many steps they take, how they breathe and pause as they take it etc.

I got the feeling that we weren't as prepared as we should have been, when the players were looking at the bench it is not a good start.

The whole process has to be stress free and Provide clarity for the players.

I disagree. First five pens were very well taken and clearly practiced. I think losing 3 pen takers (Doyle Palmer and Hamer) meant we got into those who never thought they’d be taking them.

One thing I don’t understand TBH if not giving Maguire a place on the bench as he’s got a perfect record, also apparently Robins wanted JWE on but ran out of subs. The Hamer and Doyle injuries really messed up our plans.

duffer · Jun 1, 2023

shmmeee said:
Pens are bollocks aren’t they let’s be honest? Even if it feels great when you win.

Not actually that entertaining either. I like golden goal with the reducing players thing. If just for the comedy of two knackered goalies trying to score past each other.

I'd pay to watch that too!

I like the idea of something a bit fairer like perhaps the ABBA penalty order thing, but I'm still not quite sure how that works...

Grendel · Jun 1, 2023

shmmeee said:
Pens are bollocks aren’t they let’s be honest? Even if it feels great when you win.

Not actually that entertaining either. I like golden goal with the reducing players thing. If just for the comedy of two knackered goalies trying to score past each other.

The team that finished higher should go through after 120 minutes

Tomh111 · Jun 1, 2023

shmmeee said:
I disagree. First five pens were very well taken and clearly practiced. I think losing 3 pen takers (Doyle Palmer and Hamer) meant we got into those who never thought they’d be taking them.

One thing I don’t understand TBH if not giving Maguire a place on the bench as he’s got a perfect record, also apparently Robins wanted JWE on but ran out of subs. The Hamer and Doyle injuries really messed up our plans.

So you're agreeing that we weren't prepared?

Every player should have a routine and clarity on when they're taking it. There should be a complete list, 1 through 25 and as players are not included or subbed they move up. Its simple.

The first 5 were well taken, I agree with that.

Stafford_SkBlue · Jun 1, 2023

Robinshio said:
But if we won we would love it. Can only remember one win on pens and that was a checkatrade game

Won 11-10 against Burton, if memory is correct

shmmeee · Jun 1, 2023

Grendel said:
The team that finished higher should go through after 120 minutes

In a cup competition?

Grendel · Jun 1, 2023

shmmeee said:
In a cup competition?

Obviously not - In play offs - golden goals just created teams playing out for penalties anyway you can’t go on for ever

shmmeee · Jun 1, 2023

Tomh111 said:
So you're agreeing that we weren't prepared?

Every player should have a routine and clarity on when they're taking it. There should be a complete list, 1 through 25 and as players are not included or subbed they move up. Its simple.

The first 5 were well taken, I agree with that.

No. I think someone who was likely 10th on that list probably didn’t think they’d be taking a pen and no amount of prep really prepares you for that.

San Francisco · Jun 1, 2023

Instead of a penalty shootout, if there’s no clear winner after extra time then both teams will have to pick 5 players to play a 5-a-side game.

Set up a smaller pitch and the ref should throw ball up in the air from the centre of said pitch and whoever scores first wins.

Mucca Mad Boys · Jun 1, 2023

Tomh111 said:
You can't practice penalties but you can prepare.

Every player in the squad during the playoffs should have been doing practice and building routine. Make it automatic and muscle memory kicks in.

Simple things like having the order pre determined, having the players decide in advance where they are going, how many steps they take, how they breathe and pause as they take it etc.

I got the feeling that we weren't as prepared as we should have been, when the players were looking at the bench it is not a good start.

The whole process has to be stress free and Provide clarity for the players.

Robins said we'd practiced penalties so I highly doubt we didn't prepare. You can plan 11 penalty kick takers but I highly doubt Robins expected a penalty shootout without; Hamer, Allen, Palmer and Doyle.

As for Dabo, probably knocked penalties in for fun in training and he struck the ball very well. Unfortunately, he just didn't hit the target. I doubt if he's ever hit a penalty in a game situation and to do it at Wembley to keep your team in the game is a pressure he's probably never had to deal with.

When it comes to penalties, it comes down to the players to execute. Saka didn't miss a penalty in the lead up to the 2020 Euros final...

shmmeee · Jun 1, 2023

Grendel said:
Obviously not - In play offs - golden goals just created teams playing out for penalties anyway you can’t go on for ever

Well that’s why you get rid of pens. TBH none of them are ideal. Replays are the only truly fair option and you can’t have them for a final.

What about normal ET then golden goal if still level?

Grendel · Jun 1, 2023

shmmeee said:
Well that’s why you get rid of pens. TBH none of them are ideal. Replays are the only truly fair option and you can’t have them for a final.

What about normal ET then golden goal if still level?

The problem is it could go on for ever - we did of course have replays for domestic cup finals until fixtures congestion and TV demands

Calista · Jun 1, 2023

SkyBlueCharlie9 said:
Why can't they wheel in a practise goal to halfway line mark a pen spot before match so everyone can see better....its fairer for all. Combine it with the ABBA system also.
I'm not bitter tho!!!!

Would also eliminate the long walk from the halfway line, which appears to be deliberately designed as a torture.

shmmeee · Jun 1, 2023

Grendel said:
The problem is it could go on for ever - we did of course have replays for domestic cup finals until fixtures congestion and TV demands

It would be my preferred option, but as you say the game isn’t for fans any more.

It could go on forever. In theory so could a penalty shootout. I still think that or all players on the pitch take a pen. Or you do something slightly different. Not those American pens from the halfway line but something that’s a little less of a lottery.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jun 1, 2023

Sky_Blue_Daz said:
Or you designate one player to take all of them

Not to do with penalty shoot-outs, but I'd love a rule that says during normal play the penalty taker has to be the person fouled or the last attacking player to touch the ball. Would make it more interesting and uncertain of scoring and stop strikers padding out their stats.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jun 1, 2023

EalingSB said:
From this University of Berekeley paper: There is a well-known “first shooter advantage”: other aspects being equal, the team to shoot first has a probability of between 60% and 70% of winning.

A piece in The Athletic said the rule to have two tosses was introduced at the 2016 IFAB Annual General Meeting for the Laws of the Game. The rule change occured to be fair to both teams participating in the shootout. The Athletic understands that many referees had already been adopting this practice prior to the formalised rule change as they could otherwise be perceived as giving an unfair advantage to one team.

It was determined that referees were still under pressure, however, and found it difficult to decide which goal to use with home supporters at one end and away supporters at the other end. Thus, apart from some overriding considerations (such as security or pitch conditions) the fairest method to decide which end to take the penalties was seen to be by tossing a coin.

How does two tosses make it fairer?

If one team gets to choose an end then the other gets to choose whether to go first, or vice versa. Now, as we saw, if you lose both tosses then you can be at a double disadvantage.

As others have said, I don't think there's even a need for a coin toss. Both teams could choose which end of the stadium they wanted to take them and using the ABBA system takes out the first shooter advantage. Never understood why the canned that - one of the few good ideas they had.

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