Pro-SISU / Anti-SISU (47 Viewers)

Sky Blue Kid · Jan 10, 2013

Assistant Manager
Join Date Mar 2011 Posts 978
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Originally Posted by Grendel

No one knows anything of the sort.

I thought the Higgs share was worth £6 million.

And Higgs paid <£2m for the shares (I think).

Lmfao....Grendel number 2.......You THINK?.......You take the piss out of me for basing my point on a very close estimate/formula......And what is your answer...£2m...I think!!!

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Jan 10, 2013

Let me turn this one Grendel, as your modus operandi is to snipe and sneer and then steer clear of genuine constructive debate.

What if the Ricoh was viable without CCFC? They've been shortlisted for the 2015 Rugby World Cup, I note. Did well to attract the Olympics. Obviously not the fools you assert.

So, what if they did expand and get someone like Northampton Saints to make them viable with a further 6 to 8 games a season, and the genuinely didn't need the football club anymore; and they turned around and evicted the club for rent arrears.

You'd be stuck for a scapegoat to sneer at, wouldn't you? What would you then think?

oldskyblue58 · Jan 10, 2013

Godiva said:
If ACL can be driven into administration it is not a viable business. you can have a business that is viable but you starve it of cash and it could quickly fail. That is what is going on here. As such they need to secure cashflow that is safer or guaranteed

Evidence? Well, that requires a look into the future accounts, so difficult to provide at this time. and yet plenty of people assert that ACL is nothing without CCFC we dont actually know one way or other, but few seem open to the thought that there is a life without CCFC for ACL. Not what we want as fans but it is a possibility and if ACL sort their finances out in terms of loans etc then that possibilty is stronger than it was. But point is as we agreed no evidence one way or another as yet

Without evidence all we have is educated guesses. true
The simple starting point is to look at their current business and remove ccfc. That leaves a pretty deep hole that needs filling with new businesses and cost cuttings. yes but it also leaves opportunities they can not tap in to now because of CCFC. Can other events replace that income perhaps. Can ACL reduce not only their costs but their cash flow almost certainly. Will it be enough? well thats the question
It may be possible, but even then it will be difficult to predict the loss of income their other tenants will suffer if ccfc goes. And that could mean further income loss. thats assuming that the 23 days or so of footfall from CCFC can not be replaced, that the hotel occupancy freed up by CCFC not being there wont compensate De Vere hotels for example. As I keep saying there is more than one side to all this. keep being told its an accountants view etc, that its inflexible, etc................. people have got to think outside the box, be creative, think that if ACL are creative, successful that puts CCFC at serious risk of extinction
If ccfc goes, it could potentially lead to a downward spiral. it could but then again it might not, depends how they market the venue and what actions they take to protect their tenants that do pay

And while the bankers and accountants sweats over budgets and predictions, my hope is that the politicians will step back and use a wider perspective and ask the tough questions: generalisations never help some of the least flexible minds on this dispute & forum have no interest in figures at all
Should the local football club be sacrificed to keep the stadium away from sisu? should the north Coventry regeneration scheme be sacrificed to please CCFC/SISU
Will ACL really be safe without ccfc? Is there other ways or tenants that make it safe even safer without CCFC?
Can ccfc ever become successful and viable without owning their own home? Not really for the politicians to decide. the politicians represent the best interests of their voters that doesnt necessarily mean the best interests of CCFC
What is the best case scenario for Coventry City in 5 year? it is a private company it isnt up to the politicians to forge that, they might be involved to some degree but it is not up to them to decide it

The situation needs to be sorted out soon as possible ........... might not be in the way some think though in the end !

Think what is important to say is that ACL do not actually want a future without CCFC, they do not want it to fail..... but will prepare for life without CCFC, make their own business CCFC proof........ we should not make the mistake of thinking ACL will be allowed to fail because of what CCFC does or does not do

Grendel · Jan 10, 2013

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Let me turn this one Grendel, as your modus operandi is to snipe and sneer and then steer clear of genuine constructive debate.

What if the Ricoh was viable without CCFC? They've been shortlisted for the 2015 Rugby World Cup, I note. Did well to attract the Olympics. Obviously not the fools you assert.

So, what if they did expand and get someone like Northampton Saints to make them viable with a further 6 to 8 games a season, and the genuinely didn't need the football club anymore; and they turned around and evicted the club for rent arrears.

You'd be stuck for a scapegoat to sneer at, wouldn't you? What would you then think?

How much money is made from the Olympics? Little I expect. I'm not a rugby fan but don't old Trafford hold some games or is that my imagination.

I note you made a comments last post was a sneer. Actually it was a question which clearly you have no answer to so as ever flail around throwing bombs everywhere to avoid the truth - no such model exists. It would be a white elephant or perhaps a White City.

Grendel · Jan 10, 2013

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Can you think of another venue that can do concerts, and have an exhibition hall and casino? Is there anything else quite like the Ricoh per se?!? Especially immediately adjacent to a motorway?

Besides, would it need a permanent tenant?

Let me expand on the above. We've seen matches at the Ricoh, such as Cardiff Blues against Northampton Saints, or Saracens against Munster that have drawn big crowds - the latter being over 28K for example. In fact so much hospitality was needed, the exhibition hall had to be opened to accommodate eaters/drinkers. Now look at what Harlequins are doing with their 'Big Games' Over Christmas, they moved to Twickers for the London Irish game, and sold out 82,000. Their 'normal' gates are closer to 14K as that's the stadium capacity.

Think about Northampton - just down the road. Still a top half Premiership rugby team. What if they played all of their Premiership games at Franklin Gardens, at 13.5K capacity, but played one or two 'big games' at a re-branded Ricoh a season? Let's say the Leicester Tigers game, as an example. And what if they played their Heineken Cup (European) games at the Ricoh?

I'm sorry old boy, I then see 6 to 8 gates of 25K+ a season at the 'Home of Northampton Rugby'. Doesn't sound nice, does it?

However, it could be closer to financial reality if ACL's claims are true

Why can't these clubs play games anyway? As said My last post football club host games. Don't hull or Doncaster share?

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Jan 10, 2013

Grendel said:
How much money is made from the Olympics? Little I expect. I'm not a rugby fan but don't old Trafford hold some games or is that my imagination.

I note you made a comments last post was a sneer. Actually it was a question which clearly you have no answer to so as ever flail around throwing bombs everywhere to avoid the truth - no such model exists. It would be a white elephant or perhaps a White City.

You simply - yet again - can't answer a simple question can you?

As OSB58 states above; we have no insight into ACL's financial status, lest to comment that having one year's worth of rent will be hurting. But we do know that they claim that they can survive without CCFC. So, let's take that statement as read for a moment shall we?

So, let me ask you again. Say they can. And they evict CCFC for non-payment of rent. How would you then explain away SISU's stance you so admire?

mark82 · Jan 10, 2013

They won't evict us.

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Jan 10, 2013

Grendel said:
Why can't these clubs play games anyway? As said My last post football club host games. Don't hull or Doncaster share?

Because priority is clearly given to the football club - who don't pay rent.

Rugby Union clubs often share. Saracens at Watford; Wasps at Loftus Road, etc. The MK stadium is being used - both by Saracens and Saints when it suits them. However, these are 'shares'.

If ACL's claims are correct, and they're either profitable, or borderline profitable without CCFC; then it takes precious few rugby games to give them the additional revenue to puish them into clear profitability. And given the uniqueness of their position, they could give exclusivity to a local club such at Northampton. That's obviously of interest as they wouldn't have to schedule their most high-profile league games, or European games around a football club's games.

And there's two differences bewteen the situation above, and 'shares' at Doncaster or Hull. Firstly, they've both RFL clubs, and League is nowhere near the draw of Union at the moment. Doncaster's first game at the Keepmoat, for example, only drew 5K supporters, now it's way less. And League clubs now play - largely - over the summer months; meaning there are less scheduling conflicts. So, not at all a parallel to look toward

skybluesteve76 · Jan 10, 2013

Sky Blue Kid said:
As long as you're happy, that's all that matters:facepalm:

People like you are never happy. Always moaning about things you can't control and have no clue about!

skyblueman · Jan 10, 2013

mark82 said:
They won't evict us.

ACL on their own probably won't I agree but if the banks get involved and are calling the shots - totally different scenario - banks are right bastards when it comes to chasing their money and they won't give a toss about the politics - this could still get really ugly

skybluesteve76 · Jan 10, 2013

Grendel said:
Half the time he makes no sense at all.

He should sponsor the club a pound everytime he does the jerk-it sign. We'd own the Ricoh by now.

On his own planet! Gets very upset when challenged! (On a forum)

Godiva · Jan 10, 2013

oldskyblue58 said:
The situation needs to be sorted out soon as possible ........... might not be in the way some think though in the end !

Think what is important to say is that ACL do not actually want a future without CCFC, they do not want it to fail..... but will prepare for life without CCFC, make their own business CCFC proof........ we should not make the mistake of thinking ACL will be allowed to fail because of what CCFC does or does not do

I said: What is the best case scenario for Coventry City in 5 year?
I meant: What is the best case scenario for the city of Coventry in 5 year?

Never mind ...
My point is that the council owns half the ACL - so beside the operational side of the business there's also the political aspect for the whole city. Short term and long term.

But as nobody really want the club to fail and at least most doesn't want ACL to fail (can't for sure say what sisu wants) let me ask you this:
Wouldn't it be for the better if the club and ACL merged into one entity?
How, when and how much are secondary issues.

Grendel · Jan 10, 2013

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
You simply - yet again - can't answer a simple question can you?

As OSB58 states above; we have no insight into ACL's financial status, lest to comment that having one year's worth of rent will be hurting. But we do know that they claim that they can survive without CCFC. So, let's take that statement as read for a moment shall we?

So, let me ask you again. Say they can. And they evict CCFC for non-payment of rent. How would you then explain away SISU's stance you so admire?

As I have repeatedly stated I believe the club has been resoundingly ripped off for years. This from what I can see is the most undesirable arrangement any club has other than Walsall. We are the main tenant. ACL by offering a reduction of such a huge scale are admitting as such and the club has restricted access to other commercial benefits the venue attracts. If you really want my view the whole thing stinks. We have over-paid already by millions of pounds.

If all your fantastic ideas are viable then the club could surrender its priority status and alternative fixtures can be played on some of the other 320 days a year it's available.

By the way I am just leaving Northampton. Your view on the ground being used by them didn't shall we say go down too well with the grass roots supporters.

I'm off to Oxford now. Do they have any clubs we could attract to the Ricoh?

On a side issue have you ever been to a business meeting or been a delegate at the Ricoh? I'd be interested on your view regarding the professional service you get. Iny experience they would have to improve a lot if they are to get extra income from that source.

Sky Blue Kid · Jan 10, 2013

MMM says of Grendel......
Let me turn this one Grendel, as your modus operandi is to snipe and sneer and then steer clear of genuine constructive debate.

To this I would add SBS76, Torchy, Godiva,and summerisle...I know there is a title to your name, but feel you don't deserve the use of it!....SBS76, I've said before, I'm not afraid of a "Genuine debate with anybody"...You want to try it at some stage on the forums. instead of the usual "Half a dozen word snipes" that you and Grendel,Torchy, and summerisle, come out with.
Nobody hears a word from you all, unless either me, or someone that you don't like makes a post. I will say that Godiva can put a debate up, but even he talks total accountant type "Legal speak" which the everyday bloke in the street doesn't grasp. Leave that side of things to someone who knows what he's on about and can put things into "Laymans terms" for those of us that are not in the know! OSB comes to mind

Grendel · Jan 10, 2013

Sky Blue Kid said:
MMM says of Grendel......
Let me turn this one Grendel, as your modus operandi is to snipe and sneer and then steer clear of genuine constructive debate.

To this I would add SBS76, Torchy, Godiva,and summerisle...I know there is a title to your name, but feel you don't deserve the use of it!....SBS76, I've said before, I'm not afraid of a "Genuine debate with anybody"...You want to try it at some stage on the forums. instead of the usual "Half a dozen word snipes" that you and Grendel,Torchy, and summerisle, come out with.
Nobody hears a word from you all, unless either me, or someone that you don't like makes a post. I will say that Godiva can put a debate up, but even he talks total accountant type "Legal speak" which the everyday bloke in the street doesn't grasp. Leave that side of things to someone who knows what he's on about and can put things into "Laymans terms" for those of us that are not in the know! OSB comes to mind

I'm glad you on MMM side. You don't know how good that makes me feel.

lordsummerisle · Jan 10, 2013

Sky Blue Kid said:
MMM says of Grendel......
Let me turn this one Grendel, as your modus operandi is to snipe and sneer and then steer clear of genuine constructive debate.

To this I would add SBS76, Torchy, Godiva,and summerisle...I know there is a title to your name, but feel you don't deserve the use of it!....SBS76, I've said before, I'm not afraid of a "Genuine debate with anybody"...You want to try it at some stage on the forums. instead of the usual "Half a dozen word snipes" that you and Grendel,Torchy, and summerisle, come out with.
Nobody hears a word from you all, unless either me, or someone that you don't like makes a post. I will say that Godiva can put a debate up, but even he talks total accountant type "Legal speak" which the everyday bloke in the street doesn't grasp. Leave that side of things to someone who knows what he's on about and can put things into "Laymans terms" for those of us that are not in the know! OSB comes to mind

It's Lord, you Plebian.

Must go, Andy Turner is calling back.

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Jan 10, 2013

Grendel said:
As I have repeatedly stated I believe the club has been resoundingly ripped off for years. This from what I can see is the most undesirable arrangement any club has other than Walsall. We are the main tenant. ACL by offering a reduction of such a huge scale are admitting as such and the club has restricted access to other commercial benefits the venue attracts. If you really want my view the whole thing stinks. We have over-paid already by millions of pounds.

If all your fantastic ideas are viable then the club could surrender its priority status and alternative fixtures can be played on some of the other 320 days a year it's available.

By the way I am just leaving Northampton. Your view on the ground being used by them didn't shall we say go down too well with the grass roots supporters.

I'm off to Oxford now. Do they have any clubs we could attract to the Ricoh?

On a side issue have you ever been to a business meeting or been a delegate at the Ricoh? I'd be interested on your view regarding the professional service you get. Iny experience they would have to improve a lot if they are to get extra income from that source.

I'll take that as yet another non-answer. It really, really is tiresome. Jus to remind you, I simply asked:

So, let me ask you again. Say they can. And they evict CCFC for non-payment of rent. How would you then explain away SISU's stance you so admire

oldskyblue58 · Jan 10, 2013

better for who Godiva ? - for the club most likely ......... for ACL and its stakeholders almost certainly not given the debts and loss making history of the club, and the reasonable expectation that such things will continue.

It might be desirable for the club so that it can get assets income etc but what do they bring to the table of value to make it happen ?

If ACL manage to further lower reliance on CCFC then what makes them want to do such a merger.

Something like a merger might have been desirable say 5 years ago but things have changed as you keep reminding me.

The game going on is changing and not sure CCFC calls the tune like it used to. This whole dispute will have changed much more than the amount of rent paid. For a start from here on in ACL will be sharper leaner and more street wise, will look to insulate themselves from being held to ransom by CCFC...... that has consequences for CCFC who themselves will be leaner and sharper in terms of their own finances.

Utopia is a community club close to the fans owning the stadium and buying into the regeneration plan ....... not going to happen for a very long time. Best CCFC will get any time soon is the match day incomes & costs and a significantly lower rent going forward. As you say things have changed including for project CCFC.

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Jan 10, 2013

Grendel said:
By the way I am just leaving Northampton. Your view on the ground being used by them didn't shall we say go down too well with the grass roots supporters. I'm off to Oxford now. Do they have any clubs we could attract to the Ricoh?

Did you ask any real ones, or just shout at the troubled voices in your head? As the real ones would probably know they've already played games at the Ricoh and Milton Keynes......

Moff · Jan 10, 2013

Sky Blue Kid said:
MMM says of Grendel......
Let me turn this one Grendel, as your modus operandi is to snipe and sneer and then steer clear of genuine constructive debate.

To this I would add SBS76, Torchy, Godiva,and summerisle...I know there is a title to your name, but feel you don't deserve the use of it!....SBS76, I've said before, I'm not afraid of a "Genuine debate with anybody"...You want to try it at some stage on the forums. instead of the usual "Half a dozen word snipes" that you and Grendel,Torchy, and summerisle, come out with.
Nobody hears a word from you all, unless either me, or someone that you don't like makes a post. I will say that Godiva can put a debate up, but even he talks total accountant type "Legal speak" which the everyday bloke in the street doesn't grasp. Leave that side of things to someone who knows what he's on about and can put things into "Laymans terms" for those of us that are not in the know! OSB comes to mind

Dont flatter yourself comes to mind. Do you know many of the posters named above have been on the forum, for a lot longer than you, and have posted a lot more, which means they dont only post when you do. To say that is just pathetic.

You seem to miss the irony of berating people for not debating a point, and yet castigating Godiva for debating too well.

I am on 'no ones side' as you like to allege, but felt significantly angry at your post, to place a response.

Grendel · Jan 10, 2013

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Did you ask any real ones, or just shout at the troubled voices in your head? As the real ones would probably know they've already played games at the Ricoh and Milton Keynes......

What home league games at the Ricoh?

Moff · Jan 10, 2013

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Did you ask any real ones, or just shout at the troubled voices in your head? As the real ones would probably know they've already played games at the Ricoh and Milton Keynes......

They have played once at the Ricoh, in a semi final that was the choice of the competition and not the club to play there, and choose MK for the occasional big game.

Sorry to dampen your fire, but being a Saints fan myself and being freinds with many, they are not interested in the Ricoh in anyway, shape or form.

Sky Blue Kid · Jan 10, 2013

summerisle....
It's Lord, you Plebian.

If you're going to try to show off using unusual words(Words the common man wouldn't use)....Try learning to SPELL it properly..................................PLEBEIAN:jerkit:

lordsummerisle · Jan 10, 2013

Sky Blue Kid said:
summerisle....
It's Lord, you Plebian.

If you're going to try to show off using unusual words(Words the common man wouldn't use)....Try learning to SPELL it properly..................................PLEBEIAN:jerkit:

There's another pound towards the rent...

Grendel · Jan 10, 2013

Sky Blue Kid said:
summerisle....
It's Lord, you Plebian.

If you're going to try to show off using unusual words(Words the common man wouldn't use)....Try learning to SPELL it properly..................................PLEBEIAN:jerkit:

I'd be careful if I were you. I've just heard lord summerisles allotment produced very poor quality carrots this year.

You know what happens when his crops fail don't you?

Here's hoping.....

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Jan 10, 2013

Moff said:
They have played once at the Ricoh, in a semi final that was the choice of the competition and not the club to play there, and choose MK for the occasional big game. Sorry to dampen your fire, but being a Saints fan myself and being freinds with many, they are not interested in the Ricoh in anyway, shape or form.

Yes, correct about the cup semi. And also correct about the occassional big game being played in Milton Keynes. But if that occassional 'big game' was played at the Ricoh - like the Leicester game, or the European games; that's what I'm referring to.

I was at the Saracens game over Christmas. The Milkon Keynes venue is terrible to get to by road - better by rail, I admit - and whilst it may not be your choice, it would be of interest others

lordsummerisle · Jan 10, 2013

Grendel said:
I'd be careful if I were you. I've just heard lord summerisles allotment produced very poor quality carrots this year.

You know what happens when his crops fail don't you?

Here's hoping.....

No, he'd have to be a virgin and a fool, hang on...

Grendel · Jan 10, 2013

Moff said:
They have played once at the Ricoh, in a semi final that was the choice of the competition and not the club to play there, and choose MK for the occasional big game.

Sorry to dampen your fire, but being a Saints fan myself and being freinds with many, they are not interested in the Ricoh in anyway, shape or form.

Yes that's what I thought.

As usual selective use of facts from MMM. I did speak to a couple of guys and they just laughed at the idea.

Sorry shouldn't even be speaking to you. I only ever post to reply to the literary scribe otherwise known as Sky Blue Kid.

ajsccfc · Jan 10, 2013

'Plebian' is a legitimate spelling of the word, for what it's worth.

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Jan 10, 2013

Grendel said:
Yes that's what I thought.

As usual selective use of facts from MMM. I did speak to a couple of guys and they just laughed at the idea.

Sorry shouldn't even be speaking to you. I only ever post to reply to the literary scribe otherwise known as Sky Blue Kid.

I don't know how you have the temerity to use the word 'selective', when you're still popping up here like Carol Vorderman on daytime TV, yet have dodged a direct question three times now. In fact, do you have any idea what 'selective' means!?!

Sky Blue Kid · Jan 10, 2013

Grendel says...
As usual selective use of facts from MMM.

Like your "Selective use of Estimated facts" Grendel?

@ ajsccfc....I prefer to go along with the "Good old Oxford English Dictionary" way of spelling.

@ summerisle..:jerkit::jerkit::jerkit::jerkit::jerkit:....there's another fiver's worth

Brighton Sky Blue · Jan 10, 2013

MMM-The bottom line is that if the club were successful and pulling in crowds bigger than (at best) half the ground capacity, the discussion of rent would likely still not have reared its head. As it is, the club's own dire mismanagement has landed it in a lower division with crowds barely averaging 11k, giving it the premise now to argue that income is not sufficient to meet rental payments. At no point during SISU's Championship tenure was this deemed a problem which would lead most people to conclude that since Plan A of recouping investors' money (promotion to the top flight) failed, the new plan is to force acquisition of the Ricoh lease from ACL. ACL finds itself going toe to toe with a hedge fund that's been calling its bluff for the last 9 months-if the club is evicted, can 30-40 matches worth of revenue from the club per year be matched by alternate sports events? Personally I can't see it, which is the crux of Grendel's argument.

Grendel-As stated above and by yourself, the likely agenda TF has is ultimately to force ACL into a position of financial weakness which will enhance SISU's prospects of recouping more money through acquisition of the Ricoh lease. With this in mind, they also at least overtly have to be seen to be acting in the interests of the club-and whilst ACL's ability to replace lost money from booting out CCFC is in doubt, there is no doubt at all that CCFC has no long term future outside of the stadium. As such, playing hard ball by the club (and calling ACL's bluff), is at best an empty threat and at worst is gambling with its own survival.

I can see the merits in both sides here but really, if the club had been properly run from the get go we would not be having this discussion at all.

skybluesteve76 · Jan 10, 2013

Sky Blue Kid said:
MMM says of Grendel......
Let me turn this one Grendel, as your modus operandi is to snipe and sneer and then steer clear of genuine constructive debate.

To this I would add SBS76, Torchy, Godiva,and summerisle...I know there is a title to your name, but feel you don't deserve the use of it!....SBS76, I've said before, I'm not afraid of a "Genuine debate with anybody"...You want to try it at some stage on the forums. instead of the usual "Half a dozen word snipes" that you and Grendel,Torchy, and summerisle, come out with.
Nobody hears a word from you all, unless either me, or someone that you don't like makes a post. I will say that Godiva can put a debate up, but even he talks total accountant type "Legal speak" which the everyday bloke in the street doesn't grasp. Leave that side of things to someone who knows what he's on about and can put things into "Laymans terms" for those of us that are not in the know! OSB comes to mind

I don't have either the time or inclination to right essays on here. A short sharp opinion is all that's needed, most of the time.

torchomatic · Jan 10, 2013

Best to ignore him, Steve. He's an idiot. There's many I don't agree with on here but at least they try and reply and respond thoughtfully. SBK's retort is usually just the use of the :jerkit: sign. He ignores anything that he either can't or won't answer.

skybluesteve76 said:
I don't have either the time or inclination to right essays on here. A short sharp opinion is all that's needed, most of the time.

Sky Blue Kid · Jan 10, 2013

SBS76....
But never on the point in question, just "Digs" at me or whoever you don't like at that time!:jerkit:
There's another pound

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