Refugees welcome? (11 Viewers)

Deleted member 5849 · Sep 17, 2015

Nick said:
But that example was about getting a better life, not survival.

It's survival to them, to maximise their chances of not being thrown back.

I really, utterly, fail to understand (ironically) how little empathy there is for certain groups.

Let's not forget there are systems to determine if people are refugees or not, it's not like people are just let in!

Let's not forget that there are crimes against people conducted that we can't comprehend. The sheer panic and despair and need for security is what drives people here and other places. Don't believe me? Plenty of research on the subject. It's about the psychological wellbeing as much as the physical, it's about the absolute *need* for security. We all need security, but most of us have coping mechanisms that can hold up to a certain degree, because most of us haven't been subjected to horrors.

Crack that down, and there is a need for safety. That *is* life and death. It may not be *your* survival, because your ego has not been destabilised to that extent. That doesn't stop it being *others'* survival.

armybike · Sep 17, 2015

Nick said:
You said that I didn't want to understand, I asked you to explain so I would. You said you couldn't.

Why are you twisting people's words?

Where have I said you don't want to understand?

Where have I said I couldn't explain?

I said - "I have no clue what I'd do if I was in their shoes, but accept they are individuals and will all have rational for how they react.

Be that greed, fear, panic, confusion it's wrong to expect them to all to respond in a uniform way."

People are not robots. They don't go into standby mode having completed a task.

I'm not able to explain the actions of each individual because - they're thousands of miles away and I've had no contact with them.

Deleted member 5849 · Sep 17, 2015

armybike said:
I'm not able to explain the actions of each individual because - they're thousands of miles away and I've had no contact with them.

I can safely say, having in the past had colleagues interview a number, that what often comes across is they came to Britain because of a sense of fair play, a trust that the nation would do the right thing... a trust that isn't seen in a number of other nations, for better or worse.

It sure as hell ain't for the £35 a week JSA or whatever it is now, or the desire to fleece this country ahead of others. It's about the fact they feel they will be treated right here, and do not know if they will be elsewhere.

Fleeing persecution is not an objective act any more than the fear of the Other. In the end, everyone has prejudices of some kind.

Nick · Sep 17, 2015

Deleted member 5849 said:
It's survival to them, to maximise their chances of not being thrown back.

I really, utterly, fail to understand (ironically) how little empathy there is for certain groups.

Let's not forget there are systems to determine if people are refugees or not, it's not like people are just let in!

Let's not forget that there are crimes against people conducted that we can't comprehend. The sheer panic and despair and need for security is what drives people here and other places. Don't believe me? Plenty of research on the subject. It's about the psychological wellbeing as much as the physical, it's about the absolute *need* for security. We all need security, but most of us have coping mechanisms that can hold up to a certain degree, because most of us haven't been subjected to horrors.

Crack that down, and there is a need for safety. That *is* life and death. It may not be *your* survival, because your ego has not been destabilised to that extent. That doesn't stop it being *others'* survival.

I've said plenty of times I do feel sorry for the people who do actually need help and would be killed if they go back. You see those poor kids who are being dragged about.

In the ideal world of course people should be able to get a better life, but I couldn't just go to a better place and demand they let me in could I?

There are people calling for everybody to be let in and then processed which I don't agree with, everybody should be checked out and vetted. Of course it takes time so what else can be done? If they want to start smashing things up and riots then they should be sent back and.blacklisted. Why should they ruin it for the people who do want to be helpedhelped.

I agree that my survival would be different to somebody else's but surely if they have seen horrors they would just want to be safe where there is no risk of that?

How do we help if it's not just down to physically safety and it's mentally too? Where does it stop?

I'm sure there are many thousands we don't hear about or see that have just integrated into other countries on the way and are now safe without the need for the riots etc. Fair play to them if they have.

Nick · Sep 17, 2015

armybike said:
Why are you twisting people's words?

Where have I said you don't want to understand?

Where have I said I couldn't explain?

I said - "I have no clue what I'd do if I was in their shoes, but accept they are individuals and will all have rational for how they react.

Be that greed, fear, panic, confusion it's wrong to expect them to all to respond in a uniform way."

People are not robots. They don't go into standby mode having completed a task.

I'm not able to explain the actions of each individual because - they're thousands of miles away and I've had no contact with them.

Read the post further up where you questioned if it was that I didn't understand or didn't want to.

I haven't asked you to explain for every single person, just in general. There obviously is some sort of uniform way as there are thousands of people stood at borders. Of course not every single person has the same reason but what are some of them and are they valid reasons for some of them kicking off like they are?

It's all well and good saying "oh it's because they are pissed off, wouldn't you be?" But it's not really valid. They want other people's help, no need for it.

I actually want to understand whether it is to flee from death, a better life, less hassle or what different reasons there are.

skybluetony176 · Sep 18, 2015

There was a piece on the news last night about vulnerable refugee children in Italy who arrived on their own. It seems to be a paedophiles dream. Children selling themselves for sometimes as little as a meal. How people can think that we shouldn't be helping these children beggars belief but there are plenty around who do. Children shouldn't be selling their bodies because they're hungry anywhere in the world let alone in "modern day" Europe.

armybike · Sep 18, 2015

Nick said:
Read the post further up where you questioned if it was that I didn't understand or didn't want to.

I haven't asked you to explain for every single person, just in general. There obviously is some sort of uniform way as there are thousands of people stood at borders. Of course not every single person has the same reason but what are some of them and are they valid reasons for some of them kicking off like they are?

It's all well and good saying "oh it's because they are pissed off, wouldn't you be?" But it's not really valid. They want other people's help, no need for it.

I actually want to understand whether it is to flee from death, a better life, less hassle or what different reasons there are.

So me asking if you wanted to understand or not is me stating you don't want to understand? What a bizarre interpretation of my replies!

As you said in the LinkedIn barristers post you're thick skinned and it appears from your comments there, and here, that you believe people should just deal with the situation without letting their emotions get in the way (I'm saying this is how it appears to me, not stating that's what you've said!), however not everyone is thick skinned and so maybe (not stating, just saying maybe!) this is why you can't understand why these people aren't settling in the first safe country.

SkyblueBazza · Sep 18, 2015

Nick said:
Read the post further up where you questioned if it was that I didn't understand or didn't want to.

I haven't asked you to explain for every single person, just in general. There obviously is some sort of uniform way as there are thousands of people stood at borders. Of course not every single person has the same reason but what are some of them and are they valid reasons for some of them kicking off like they are?

It's all well and good saying "oh it's because they are pissed off, wouldn't you be?" But it's not really valid. They want other people's help, no need for it.

I actually want to understand whether it is to flee from death, a better life, less hassle or what different reasons there are.

Mrs Merkel & some German papers & mayors said they would be welcome there.
People who take money to 'help' their passage use those words to encourage them to take the journey & hence make money from them.

Look at the journey(s) they take - whilst there life would not be in immediate danger in most of them - they are probably not places you would describe as where you would wish to settle long term. They probably cannot see an end to strife in their own part of the world - & do not want to be continually displaced. So having somewhere to be welcomed...surely you would head there?

...onwards & upwards PUSB

Nick · Sep 18, 2015

armybike said:
So me asking if you wanted to understand or not is me stating you don't want to understand? What a bizarre interpretation of my replies!

As you said in the LinkedIn barristers post you're thick skinned and it appears from your comments there, and here, that you believe people should just deal with the situation without letting their emotions get in the way (I'm saying this is how it appears to me, not stating that's what you've said!), however not everyone is thick skinned and so maybe (not stating, just saying maybe!) this is why you can't understand why these people aren't settling in the first safe country.

You mean where I said from the start that the woman was doing it for self publicity rather than because she was actually offended?

No, the way you worded it implied I didn't want to understand rather that didn't understand. I said I didn't understand something, you said:

Don't understand/Don't want to understand?

It is quite clear what that meant.

lewys33 · Sep 18, 2015

The Lurker said:
Brilliant. So because someone is against immigration. They are a racist, nothing like pre judgmental. Your not living in the UK but we are cutting budgets left right and centre. But willing to find money for 20,000 people including housing and benefits. Which will cost the country 10's of millions. I don't want more cuts happening and that will happen to pay for the refugees. You let 20,000 int then more will want to come in. It'll be a never ending cycle.

Cuts to public services to pay for refugees?! That is a new one. The budget was already in place for the refugees as it is coming from the international aid fund. No extra money is being put in. The biggest expenditure of benefits is pensions, so maybe you should moan about the OAPs instead with their free bus pass. If you are outraged about the cuts to public services maybe you should take a look at the fact the Madeleine McCann investigation has cost 10 million to date......

The Lurker said:
My little girl class has 12 polish kids and they have 2 teachers (1 polish and 1 English) plus the school has a polish head teacher on top of the normal head teacher. This is costing the country millions of pounds while were in austerity. Same applies to when foreign nationalities are arrested here. They get a translator which costs £500 a time. Yet working public sector people have to take paycuts, police and fire service losing 1000's of jobs and army budget cut despite this country being targeted and high alert. Sorry for my racist outburst. Can't say the truth can I?

It's not true though is it? What do you suggest they do just segregate all polish children and only pay for 1 polish teacher, or try and include and integrate them in to our society? Of course it is all their fault that they only speak polish and were dragged over here to be a nuisance.

lewys33 · Sep 18, 2015

The Lurker said:
Prime example. Why is the racist card branded about when taking about immigration? It's not being racist, it's being a realist. Big difference

Do you have a problem with Scottish, French or American people coming to live in this country? The definition still applies.

armybike · Sep 18, 2015

Nick said:
It is quite clear what that meant.

You do understand how question marks work right?

How can you 'know' what I meant?

Nick · Sep 18, 2015

armybike said:
You do understand how question marks work right?

How can you 'know' what I meant?

Because it is quite clear how it was implied.

If I didn't want to understand I would have said "I don't want to understand" rather than "I don't understand" surely? Especially when I was asking you to try and make me understand.

Nick · Sep 18, 2015

lewys33 said:
It's not true though is it? What do you suggest they do just segregate all polish children and only pay for 1 polish teacher, or try and include and integrate them in to our society? Of course it is all their fault that they only speak polish and were dragged over here to be a nuisance.

Not the kids fault at all, the parents I'd say. It must horrible for the poor kid to be in a class not understanding what everybody else is saying.

armybike · Sep 18, 2015

Nick said:
Because it is quite clear how it was implied.

How you've taken it is up to you, it was a question hence the question mark. As the person making the post, I'm able to categorically confirm your assumption is incorrect.

lewys33 · Sep 18, 2015

Nick said:
Not the kids fault at all, the parents I'd say. It must horrible for the poor kid to be in a class not understanding what everybody else is saying.

It's fine, they have interpreters which cost us lots of wonga

SIR ERNIE · Sep 18, 2015

The longer this migration crisis goes on, the more obvious it becomes that the only countries that will come out of it with any credit will be Hungary and the UK:

Hungary are absolutely right to prevent tens of thousands of illegal immigrants from crossing their borders. It's a disgrace that other European nations are not doing the same.

The UK are absolutely right to focus their efforts on helping the genuine refugees in the camps on the borders of their homelands.

Contrast that with the irresponsible, cavalier actions of Merkel and her government whose 'open door' announcement starts the mayhem and then a week later do a u-turn. Too late Merkel you fool.

torchomatic · Sep 18, 2015

You know what Tony. Me and you fight like cat and dog over CCFC and what's best for them, but I have to say I agree with everything you say on the stuff in life that REALLY matters.

skybluetony176 said:
There was a piece on the news last night about vulnerable refugee children in Italy who arrived on their own. It seems to be a paedophiles dream. Children selling themselves for sometimes as little as a meal. How people can think that we shouldn't be helping these children beggars belief but there are plenty around who do. Children shouldn't be selling their bodies because they're hungry anywhere in the world let alone in "modern day" Europe.

torchomatic · Sep 18, 2015

Are you Nick Griffin or Nigel Farage? One or the other, surely?

SIR ERNIE said:
The longer this migration crisis goes on, the more obvious it becomes that the only countries that will come out of it with any credit will be Hungary and the UK:

Hungary are absolutely right to prevent tens of thousands of illegal immigrants from crossing their borders. It's a disgrace that other European nations are not doing the same.

The UK are absolutely right to focus their efforts on helping the genuine refugees in the camps on the borders of their homelands.

Contrast that with the irresponsible, cavalier actions of Merkel and her government whose 'open door' announcement starts the mayhem and then a week later do a u-turn. Too late Merkel you fool.

Nick · Sep 18, 2015

skybluetony176 said:
There was a piece on the news last night about vulnerable refugee children in Italy who arrived on their own. It seems to be a paedophiles dream. Children selling themselves for sometimes as little as a meal. How people can think that we shouldn't be helping these children beggars belief but there are plenty around who do. Children shouldn't be selling their bodies because they're hungry anywhere in the world let alone in "modern day" Europe.

I think somebody would have to be very harsh not to want to help them wouldn't they?

Jack Griffin · Sep 18, 2015

Croatia is closing its borders now.

The EU is in turmoil on this, many states have a radically different attitude to Germany & France. Can't see there being any agreement in the foreseeable future.

If nothing else this crisis is exposing the fact that the EU system of governance is (possibly fatally) flawed.

torchomatic · Sep 18, 2015

There's a few on this thread.

Nick said:
I think somebody would have to be very harsh not to want to help them wouldn't they?

Nick · Sep 18, 2015

torchomatic said:
There's a few on this thread.

There's a huge difference between saying don't open the country up to everybody without vetting them and announcing everybody come here to refusing to help kids like that.

Would I want to help a grown man kicking off, throwing rocks etc? Nope

Would somebody leave a young kid to have to sell their body for food? They would have to be very very harsh no matter where the kid was from.

SIR ERNIE · Sep 18, 2015

torchomatic said:
Are you Nick Griffin or Nigel Farage? One or the other, surely?

A predictable response from you.

Genuine refugees deserve all the help and support the world can give them.

That is a very different standpoint to one of allowing hundreds of thousands, potentially millions of migrants to flood illegally across European borders.

Wake up.

lewys33 · Sep 18, 2015

SIR ERNIE said:
A predictable response from you.

Genuine refugees deserve all the help and support the world can give them.

That is a very different standpoint to one of allowing hundreds of thousands, potentially millions of migrants to flood illegally across European borders.

Wake up.

I'm pretty sure the government said it would be 20,000 refugees. So no need for all the hatred.

SIR ERNIE · Sep 18, 2015

lewys33 said:
I'm pretty sure the government said it would be 20,000 refugees. So no need for all the hatred.

No hatred here. I don't hate anyone. Love and peace.

chiefdave · Sep 18, 2015

Jack Griffin said:
The EU is in turmoil on this, many states have a radically different attitude to Germany & France. Can't see there being any agreement in the foreseeable future.

That's the problem really isn't it. The EU as a whole should have acted sooner. Its not like this wasn't likley to happen. They should have been prepared for large numbers of people seeking asylum and have temporary refugee camps relatively close to Syria.

From there they could have put a fast track refugee application system and also security screening with those who are granted refugee status properly and safely transported to their final destintaion with the numbers being speak across EU member states. Pressure should also have been put on the richer, more stable, arab countries to take similar numbers.

The whole thing is a mess and now we're down to firefighting. If the EU don't get their act together quickly this has the potential to escalate fast.

Broken Hearted Sky Blue · Sep 18, 2015

martcov said:
I believe they also used water canons and truncheons. The people have no food and drink and no sanitation - they are pissed off. They are now going through Croatia. It is hell. They cannot go back and cannot go forward.

They have food water portable toilets supplied by the Serbian government who are also at the moment planning for the coming winter. Watching Serbian news last night there are between 12000 and 16000 refugees entering Serbia a day,also the Bulgarians are stationing troops on their border with Turkey,things are getting very tense at the moment.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

SIR ERNIE · Sep 18, 2015

chiefdave said:
That's the problem really isn't it. The EU as a whole should have acted sooner. Its not like this wasn't likley to happen. They should have been prepared for large numbers of people seeking asylum and have temporary refugee camps relatively close to Syria.

From there they could have put a fast track refugee application system and also security screening with those who are granted refugee status properly and safely transported to their final destintaion with the numbers being speak across EU member states. Pressure should also have been put on the richer, more stable, arab countries to take similar numbers.

The whole thing is a mess and now we're down to firefighting. If the EU don't get their act together quickly this has the potential to escalate fast.

Totally agree chiefdave.

The UK has contributed £1billion to those camps. As much as the rest of the EU put together. Merkel should have done the same and encouraged the rest of Europe to follow suit. Send over £10bn aid. Instead she went the knee-jerk look-at-me route and didn't think of the consequences. Idiocy.

Spot on also about the oil-rich Muslim states who have turned their backs.

martcov · Sep 18, 2015

Broken Hearted Sky Blue said:
They have food water portable toilets supplied by the Serbian government who are also at the moment planning for the coming winter. Watching Serbian news last night there are between 12000 and 16000 refugees entering Serbia a day,also the Bulgarians are stationing troops on their border with Turkey,things are getting very tense at the moment.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

not not everywhere or not enough. Saw volunteers complaining about it on TV. Don't remember which border crossing to Hungary that was. Maybe your information refers to incoming and not outgoing from Serbia.

martcov · Sep 18, 2015

SIR ERNIE said:
Totally agree chiefdave.

The UK has contributed £1billion to those camps. As much as the rest of the EU put together. Merkel should have done the same and encouraged the rest of Europe to follow suit. Send over £10bn aid. Instead she went the knee-jerk look-at-me route and didn't think of the consequences. Idiocy.

Spot on also about the oil-rich Muslim states who have turned their backs.

The people were already here when she announced they could come in. She says it was a one off humanitarian gesture. The problem is the numbers involved. How do you send them back? The have given everything to get this far. They are now walking through fields through the night from Serbia to Croatia. Now what? Croatia has closed the border as they cannot cope. They also said they would take the refugees in and did an about turn.

torchomatic · Sep 18, 2015

I'm wide awake thanks. 20K over five years for the UK. Hardly the millions you suggest. Nothing like a bit of scaremongering though, eh?

SIR ERNIE said:
A predictable response from you.

Genuine refugees deserve all the help and support the world can give them.

That is a very different standpoint to one of allowing hundreds of thousands, potentially millions of migrants to flood illegally across European borders.

Wake up.

Nick · Sep 18, 2015

martcov said:
The people were already here when she announced they could come in. She says it was a one off humanitarian gesture. The problem is the numbers involved. How do you send them back? The have given everything to get this far. They are now walking through fields through the night from Serbia to Croatia. Now what? Croatia has closed the border as they cannot cope. They also said they would take the refugees in and did an about turn.

Surely the pattern here is that people shouldn't be popping up shouting "come here" when it is quite obvious there is going to be massive numbers and they won't be able to cope

Wouldn't the best thing for them to be put into camps and then processed accordingly? It may not be nice being in a camp for a few weeks but it surely beats walking across countries and it guarantees safety?
Then if countries did as Britain did and take people who need help from the camps directly, safely there is no risk of people drowning etc?

Nick · Sep 18, 2015

torchomatic said:
I'm wide awake thanks. 20K over five years for the UK. Hardly the millions you suggest. Nothing like a bit of scaremongering though, eh?

I think he meant for Europe though not just the UK?

martcov · Sep 18, 2015

chiefdave said:
That's the problem really isn't it. The EU as a whole should have acted sooner. Its not like this wasn't likley to happen. They should have been prepared for large numbers of people seeking asylum and have temporary refugee camps relatively close to Syria.

From there they could have put a fast track refugee application system and also security screening with those who are granted refugee status properly and safely transported to their final destintaion with the numbers being speak across EU member states. Pressure should also have been put on the richer, more stable, arab countries to take similar numbers.

The whole thing is a mess and now we're down to firefighting. If the EU don't get their act together quickly this has the potential to escalate fast.

One problem in the EU is us. The threat of a referendum going wrong makes decision making difficult. The other problem is the eastern states who do not want Muslim immigrants. The immigrants in the Baltic States are Russian and they have enough of them. They don't want more immigrants.

a sensible EU would disperse the refugees evenly, but because there are so many agendas at play, it isn't going to happen.

the Germans have got to get a fast track procedure to separate the economic from the war refugees. Germans love bureaucracy, so it will be difficult. The head of the civil service for asylum applications has resigned and the are calls for the resignation of the Minister of the Interior because, although they put in more and more money and staff, the situation is getting worse.

the civil servant is a scape goat, the law should have been changed long ago as this crisis started - probably 2012 or 2013.

Refugees welcome? (11 Viewers)

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