Rent or own stadium? (1 Viewer)

Paxman II said:

SISU if they ever get us back into the premiership may have better clout to buy out WASP ironically.

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It's all been downhill with SISU. The odds are that will continue. Each season's team is weaker than the one before. IHHO we are more likely to drop a division or go out of the Football League than to get back to the Premiership.

Neutral Fan said:

Wasps are not the owners of Ricoh. They are just a rugby franchise playing there. Maltese company Moonstone own the stadium (MGI Fiduciary own Moonstone).

Moonstone/MGI could liquidate Wasps tomorrow and the stadium/land/casino is still all theirs. Maybe they will if the rugby team fails to get going.

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So, what would happen after this hypothetical liquidation, bearing in mind it's actually the Council that owns the stadium and the land.

Rusty Trombone said:

So, what would happen after this hypothetical liquidation, bearing in mind it's actually the Council that owns the stadium and the land.

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They do not own the lease so er....as he says they will still pull all the strings. The lease is longer than the stadium life so all the value is tied in the lease. The land and stadium is worthless without it.

Grendel said:

They do not own the lease so er....as he says they will still pull all the strings. The lease is longer than the stadium life so all the value is tied in the lease. The land and stadium is worthless without it.

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Thanks for that info, very enlightening. Not sure why you're telling me about value when I haven't mentioned it, but never mind. Obviously they won't pull all the strings as such as it's not their stadium to do with whatever they want, they would need to get the freeholders permission for major alterations, new buildings on any land etc, even moving a sign requires permission. So, the question remains to Neutral Fan, what would happen?

Rusty Trombone said:

Thanks for that info, very enlightening. Not sure why you're telling me about value when I haven't mentioned it, but never mind. Obviously they won't pull all the strings as such as it's not their stadium to do with whatever they want, they would need to get the freeholders permission for major alterations, new buildings on any land etc, even moving a sign requires permission. So, the question remains to Neutral Fan, what would happen?

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The moving of the sign is planning permission which would be required if they owned the land. The wording of the lease could permit major alterations without the freeholders permission if thats the deal struck.

Some interesting points but I think that the question for SISU now should be do you invest in the team or the new Stadium.

The stadium will cost a minimum of £30m (probably more) take 4 yrs to build before it yields a penny in additional Revenue. This is assuming they don't get a larger site for bigger development, which could be sold on to fund the build but then they will probably be in competition with other property development companies. Also would we have a team and support if we put the money into this to get any significant revenue?

Investing a similar amount in the team would that yield more for them?

Well they would get increased ticket sales, if in the championship then increased TV revenue too. If the managed to get to the Premiership in a similar time frame then a £70M revenue stream from TV and place money before ticket sales and advertising and sponsorship.

I am not claiming to know the answer as both are a gamble without guaranteed success but which really represents the club, the Team or the Stadium?

But which strategy would you adopt?

albatross said:

Some interesting points but I think that the question for SISU now should be do you invest in the team or the new Stadium.

The stadium will cost a minimum of £30m (probably more) take 4 yrs to build before it yields a penny in additional Revenue. This is assuming they don't get a larger site for bigger development, which could be sold on to fund the build but then they will probably be in competition with other property development companies. Also would we have a team and support if we put the money into this to get any significant revenue?

Investing a similar amount in the team would that yield more for them?

Well they would get increased ticket sales, if in the championship then increased TV revenue too. If the managed to get to the Premiership in a similar time frame then a £70M revenue stream from TV and place money before ticket sales and advertising and sponsorship.

I am not claiming to know the answer as both are a gamble without guaranteed success but which really represents the club, the Team or the Stadium?

But which strategy would you adopt?

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How much would you invest seeing as we can only invest 60% of income? Where's the additional income coming from to be able to turn that into on the pitch investment according to FFP?

RoboCCFC90 said:

Okay...

I want to win the lottery...

Euro Millions would be nice, around £80,000,000 I could then buy out CCFC and it could be a fan owned Club

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Would you bring back baker, sign a keeper, bring back cody.
Sign decent players instead if loanees who have other priorities on their mind.
Make a long term rental deal with wasps. Say 50 years in which we get access to 77% of F & B. then talk to compass about buying the other 23%.
Would you half your costs on everything with wasps ie physios, shop at the Ricoh. Stewards, training facility.
Would you sign a keeper.
Would you start treating the Ricoh like a home and engage the rest of the supporters so it feels like a family club again.

Do you want me to reel off a list?

Kingokings204 said:

I would obviously like ccfc to own its own stadium what Cov fan wouldn't.

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torchomatic said:

Do you want me to reel off a list?

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yes, everyone wants ccfc to own their own stadium. As always though you don't listen to what people are actually saying.

Bennets Afro said:

How much would you invest seeing as we can only invest 60% of income? Where's the additional income coming from to be able to turn that into on the pitch investment according to FFP?

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the holes in the ffp rules are wide enough to drive a bus through, the constant talk about ffp (scmp actually) is and has always been nonsense. Especially when every action they have taken has ended up lowing the revenue for scmp reasons, pissing off fans, moving to northampton, ending up with hardly any sponsors, hardly any corporate income, hardly any merchandising income.

A wealthy owner is allowed to bankroll a club in league 1 and 2, the championship rules don't allow that but they are nearly useless as well, you can lose something like 36mill before the championship rules get you.

Ideal world every club owns its own stadium. Real world is not like that though

But for me the focus has to be the team and that has to be based on sustainable long term income streams, especially in L1, those can be available whatever type of set up you choose. The club has to live within its means be that paying rent or mortgages.

The importance of owning the freehold
- to put an asset on the balance sheet
- to use as security for borrowings
- to give the owners a premium when it is sold

the importance of owning a long term lease
- to put an asset on the balance sheet
- to use as security for borrowings
- to give the owners a premium when it is sold

whats the difference because both will give you 100% access to income.

A short term rent now that's different because the cost of gaining more income streams is reflected in the price and some income might not be available at all

What has been allowed to happen for CCFC is that the rights and privileges of "owning" freehold or long lease have been bartered or ransomed away by the fools that have been involved so that we are left picking up the crumbs.

Right now the club has been reduced to taking the best deal it can get. A preference for ownership or rent in a practical sense does not come in to it as it stands now. Until our owners tell us different of course.

This "owning our stadium" is pure sisu propaganda- do the sums and tell me why it's better to pay mortgage repayments on a £25m loan than to pay£150,000 in rent per annum....? F&B revenues can only be considered to comply with financial fair play regs, they account for diddly squat in the grander scheme.

If ccfc had a spare £25 million for a new stadium them they probably wouldn't be a bottom end third tier team anyway. Sisu were in a good position to renegotiate the rent agreement they signed up to, but pissed on their chips and burnt their bridges, and have now had their bluff called and will have to build their new stadium...

CCFC PimpRail said:

This "owning our stadium" is pure sisu propaganda- do the sums and tell me why it's better to pay mortgage repayments on a £25m loan than to pay£150,000 in rent per annum....? F&B revenues can only be considered to comply with financial fair play regs, they account for diddly squat in the grander scheme.

If ccfc had a spare £25 million for a new stadium them they probably wouldn't be a bottom end third tier team anyway. Sisu were in a good position to renegotiate the rent agreement they signed up to, but pissed on their chips and burnt their bridges, and have now had their bluff called and will have to build their new stadium...

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There are far more 'revenue streams' that can be included for FFP purposes than just F&B revenue.

Freehold would allow you to tear it down and build housing if you so chose (OK, you'd need planning for the housing, but if you've torn it down already, who's going to refuse). Lease wouldn't.

I don't need to listen. I just need to read what they are saying. And they say it quite clearly. I'm not the only one who can see it.

In fact, some of the idiots wrote to the council asking them NOT to deal with SISU. Great fans.

Noggin said:

yes, everyone wants ccfc to own their own stadium. As always though you don't listen to what people are actually saying.

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torchomatic said:

Do you want me to reel off a list?

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All CCFC fans want the club to own its own stadium but most know that will never happen. We know that the stadium TF is talking about will be on Sisu's books not CCFCs.

If Sisu somehow manage to get a land deal that includes retail etc then that also will be on Sisu's books.

You need to ask these questions of Sisu before you join their folly and follow blindly.

italiahorse said:

You need to ask these questions of Sisu before you join their folly and follow blindly.

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Like Michael's bid?

torchomatic said:

I don't need to listen. I just need to read what they are saying. And they say it quite clearly. I'm not the only one who can see it.

In fact, some of the idiots wrote to the council asking them NOT to deal with SISU. Great fans.

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You read what your biases want to read, you don't listen to peoples arguments,

If someone writes I don't want sisu to get the ricoh, you read I don't want ccfc to own their own stadium. That is not the same thing at all. The big worry was always if sisu get the stadium super cheap they could just liquidate the football club, or sisu might just rent to the club but be worse landlords than ccc. We've already seen sisu use insolvency law to get rid of debts and keep the assets for themselves, it is perfectly legitimate to worry this was their plan with the ricoh especially as Arvo again has a charge over the assets.

Nick said:

Like Michael's bid?

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Michael who ?