Ricoh Lease... (8 Viewers)

Nick · Jul 8, 2020

Ah yes, in the email that pwkh himself sent

I believe that speed is of the essence. CCC are not going to be able to keep their negotiations with Sisu
running indefinitely, which currently is the only way we have to create sufficient time for us to work out the
approach to the YB and for CCC to have the deal taken through the various steps needed within a local authority.

Maybe OSB can give more information on what that is about?

Nick · Jul 8, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
At what point are you going to understand the difference between an offer and consideration?

Difference. £2.77m was actually paid by Wasps. Contracts drawn up, agreed and paid for. Offer, acceptance and consideration all sorted in a few months. SISU - years of negotiating back and forth. Numerous agreements made and drawn up. Amount actually paid - zero. Until money changes hands an offer is nothing but words.

If a woman says she's going to shag you but everytime she's supposed to come round she either doesn't turn up or makes an excuse she can't make it but says she's definitely going to do it next time how long before you just accept she's got no intention of actually shagging you and is just stringing you along? The fact that people still believe SISU would actually pay up is almost sweet in its naivety.

And if you look at their revaluation it actually blows their claim of state aid out of the water as the amount paid for it was slightly more than their valuation, which would go towards the extended lease. Yes, the current valuation is much higher but everyone knows it's massively over-inflated.

So you are guessing that it wouldn't be paid then? Where's "they wanted it for free" come from?

They paid 2.77 * 2 for 100% and then a million for the 250 year lease didn't they?

I think your selective memory on what actually happened is getting to you. Especially when there's written proof that the council and higgs were stringing along while they worked out a bailout. Little did we know, they already had plans for wasps too.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jul 8, 2020

Nick said:
Can you prove they wanted it for free?

Don't you think the fact that 100% was sold for the same amount as the 50% was offered tells you something? (Plus the club still needed to pay rent to keep the other half of ACL going)

In fact, I'm pretty sure it came out that the council were just humouring sisu while they were trying to sort the debt and council bailout didn't it?

How much money have SISU actually paid towards purchasing the ground in all the years they've been here? None. Zip. Nada. Square root of fuck all.

Until that changes prove to me they DON'T want it for free. Not words saying they'll do something - actual cash changing hands.

Nick · Jul 8, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
How much money have SISU actually paid towards purchasing the ground in all the years they've been here? None. Zip. Nada. Square root of fuck all.

Until that changes prove to me they DON'T want it for free. Not words saying they'll do something - actual cash changing hands.

I think you are getting confused. That's delusional.

I mean the club paid more in rent than what wasps paid to buy the place.

Grendel · Jul 8, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
At what point are you going to understand the difference between an offer and consideration?

Difference. £2.77m was actually paid by Wasps. Contracts drawn up, agreed and paid for. Offer, acceptance and consideration all sorted in a few months. SISU - years of negotiating back and forth. Numerous agreements made and drawn up. Amount actually paid - zero. Until money changes hands an offer is nothing but words.

If a woman says she's going to shag you but everytime she's supposed to come round she either doesn't turn up or makes an excuse she can't make it but says she's definitely going to do it next time how long before you just accept she's got no intention of actually shagging you and is just stringing you along? The fact that people still believe SISU would actually pay up is almost sweet in its naivety.

And if you look at their revaluation it actually blows their claim of state aid out of the water as the amount paid for it was slightly more than their valuation, which would go towards the extended lease. Yes, the current valuation is much higher but everyone knows it's massively over-inflated.

The actual difference was the probe was set as the council sold their share first and not Higgs - something Ccfc were never offered

Think about if

ccfcricoh · Jul 8, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
How much money have SISU actually paid towards purchasing the ground in all the years they've been here? None. Zip. Nada. Square root of fuck all.

Until that changes prove to me they DON'T want it for free. Not words saying they'll do something - actual cash changing hands.

Using your own analogy, if there was a girl you wanted to shag but she wanted money, would you just start throwing money at her until you had an agreement of the amount? Or would you wait until there was an offer/contract and then pay the consideration?

Why would SISU pay "actual cash" for a contract that doesnt exist?

Grendel · Jul 8, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
How much money have SISU actually paid towards purchasing the ground in all the years they've been here? None. Zip. Nada. Square root of fuck all.

Until that changes prove to me they DON'T want it for free. Not words saying they'll do something - actual cash changing hands.

Well they paid more rent Than wasps paid for the ground

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jul 8, 2020

Nick said:
So you are guessing that it wouldn't be paid then? Where's "they wanted it for free" come from?

They paid 2.77 * 2 for 100% and then a million for the 250 year lease didn't they?

I think your selective memory on what actually happened is getting to you. Especially when there's written proof that the council and higgs were stringing along while they worked out a bailout. Little did we know, they already had plans for wasps too.

Just as you're guessing they would've paid it. Difference is my educated guess is based on over a decade of that exact behaviour of making agreements and then pulling out. Previous behaviour is the best indicator of future behaviour. What part of their previous actions suggest they were going to pay?

Magwitch · Jul 8, 2020

History, history, Can do nothing about history, another thread about regurgitated rhymes and reasons why we are where we are, we can point fingers at sisu, council, Wasps, ACL,RFL, Richardson, Robinson whoever but the facts remain, we have no regular home stadium going forward and if we ain’t careful that fact is going to bite us on the arse just as things seem atleast going a little better.

Grendel · Jul 8, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Just as you're guessing they would've paid it. Difference is my educated guess is based on over a decade of that exact behaviour of making agreements and then pulling out. Previous behaviour is the best indicator of future behaviour. What part of their previous actions suggest they were going to pay?

They didn’t default on the rent once until the dispute did they?

Sky Blue Pete · Jul 8, 2020

Grendel said:
They didn’t default on the rent once until the dispute did they?

And unlike previous owners and other club owners they’ve paid salaries and tax on time and never fallen behind Or defaulted

chiefdave · Jul 8, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
How much money have SISU actually paid towards purchasing the ground in all the years they've been here? None. Zip. Nada. Square root of fuck all.

It's pretty mind-blowing to think that Wasps have the whole thing with a 250 year lease for £6.5m when our original lease had us paying £60m just for 50 years matchday access with an offer to buy access to matchday revenues for £24m.

Just have a quick think about what Wasps got for £6.5m compared to what was on offer to us for £84m.

Nick · Jul 8, 2020

Car dealer: car is 10k
Me: I'll give you 5k as it needs a fair bit doing, it's a mess
Car dealer: you aren't having it for free
Me: no, 5k

I'm not sure your whole "want for free" thing works.

chiefdave · Jul 8, 2020

Nick said:
Car dealer: car is 10k
Me: I'll give you 5k as it needs a fair bit doing, it's a mess
Car dealer: you aren't having it for free
Me: no, 5k

Car dealer's mate: 5K is an insulting offer
Next person into showroom: I'll give you 5K
Car dealer: deal, you are the greatest customer I've ever had, we are so lucky you came here

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jul 8, 2020

Nick said:
I think you are getting confused. That's delusional.

I mean the club paid more in rent than what wasps paid to buy the place.

Apples and oranges. I've paid more to tax, fuel, insure and service my car than I paid for it outright. Has Wasps financial expenditure on the stadium just been the purchase price?

They could've worked out the break-even point when they bought the club of purchase via the option plus maintenance costs compared to renting. Irony is had they just paid the formula price (even though it was inflated) everyone would've ended up making something from it. Instead everybody has lost.

Nick · Jul 8, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Apples and oranges. I've paid more to tax, fuel, insure and service my car than I paid for it outright. Has Wasps financial expenditure on the stadium just been the purchase price?

They could've worked out the break-even point when they bought the club of purchase via the option plus maintenance costs compared to renting. Irony is had they just paid the formula price (even though it was inflated) everyone would've ended up making something from it. Instead everybody has lost.

You said about money to buy it. The club has paid more in rent (without matchday income) than wasps bought the whole thing for 250 years for.

Let that sink in. If the lease hadn't been broken, how much then? I mean it was handy for ACL to force the club into admin and break the lease, they had a rugby club ready to step in they could give a much better deal.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jul 8, 2020

ccfcricoh said:
Using your own analogy, if there was a girl you wanted to shag but she wanted money, would you just start throwing money at her until you had an agreement of the amount? Or would you wait until there was an offer/contract and then pay the consideration?

Why would SISU pay "actual cash" for a contract that doesnt exist?

Agreements were made in principal. Then as the contracts were being discussed terms were changed and SISU reneged.

So using the analogy that'd be the girl saying £100. You saying Ok then when she asks for the money you saying no £80. She reluctantly says Ok. You say £50. She tells you to fuck off and shags someone else.

How long is it going to be before some of your realise SISU never had any intention to actually put their money where their mouth was?

mrtrench · Jul 8, 2020

Specs WT-R75 said:
Bonds are strange things and can be very illiquid. At current price of 47... actually down to 44 it yields a lot more than 13, if you factor in that you also get the additional 56 if the bond is repaid. That's a big IF at the moment which is why the thing is trading so low. Current bid price is 38, and sell price 44. It's not quite a junk bond but it's getting there.

The reality is that the vast majority of the bond holders are either in it for the long-haul (might hold the bonds as part of a diversified pension portfolio), or are not prepared to sell at such a big loss. Probably a good chunk are held by Wasps fans. There probably isn't sufficient bonds available for sale to buy a substantial amount that would give Sisu any sort of leverage. Eg even in March less than 1M of bond volume changed hands. Maybe they are planning to pay the rent in bonds

The question I would ask is why the owners of Wasps are not mopping up these bonds at 60% discount prices given that its a huge reduction in both the debt they have to repay and the interest... not a good look.

The most likely outcome here in 2 years would be for a new bond issuance to repay the old bonds as long as Wasps are still a going concern by then...

Of course you are absolutely right on all counts. I was ignoring the final redemption cashflow as you say. Also made the mistake of assuming liquidity.

Nick · Jul 8, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Agreements were made in principal. Then as the contracts were being discussed terms were changed and SISU reneged.

So using the analogy that'd be the girl saying £100. You saying Ok then when she asks for the money you saying no £80. She reluctantly says Ok. You say £50. She tells you to fuck off and shags someone else.

How long is it going to be before some of your realise SISU never had any intention to actually put their money where their mouth was?

Why was it changed to £2m?

Are you going to ignore my bit about PWKH talking about keeping negotiations with SISU going while they did a deal with Yorkshire Bank and the Council?

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jul 8, 2020

Nick said:
Car dealer: car is 10k
Me: I'll give you 5k as it needs a fair bit doing, it's a mess
Car dealer: you aren't having it for free
Me: no, 5k

I'm not sure your whole "want for free" thing works.

Car dealer: OK, £5k
Me: Actually looking again I think it's only worth £3k.
Car dealer: You're taking the piss but £3k.
Me: Nah, I actually reckon it's only worth £2k on reflection.

Spot the pattern yet? No actual money changing hands just a constant downward negotiation.

And just to complete the analogy
Me: £1.5k. It's got some scratches and dents
Car dealer: You just scratched and dented the car!
Me: £1k. It's barely more than scrap and I'm the only one that's going to buy it

Second customer: I'll give you £2k for that car. Here's the money.
Car dealer: Sold!
Me: Why did you sell that car to someone else for that paltry amount?! it's worth more than that. I'm going to complain.

Nick · Jul 8, 2020

The bit on that link is interesting:

4. The Higgs charity and the council hatched a "secret and perverse plan" to do a deal with Yorkshire Bank without Sisu/the football club

Our verdict: Mr Justice Leggatt certainly didn't seem to agree when he cleared the charity of any wrongdoing and went on to say Sisu's allegations were "misplaced and it is unfortunate that allegations were made in some of the terms which have been put forward by SISU in these proceedings". In court, Sisu pointed to the 'August report' - written by the council's Finance Director Chris West.

I mean, there's now an email from PWKH saying that they were doing exactly that at the time.

His own words:

The scope is as outlined in the e-mail to Andrew. This meeting is about the tactics etc to be employed in dealing with the YB

The Proposition is that CCC and the AEHC buy the ACL debt from the Yorkshire Bank. AEHC will not contribute any funds to this. The AEHC shareholding in ACL will not be diluted. CCC is prepared to accept the Sisu offer of £5.5m as the value which they would have to meet should they exercise their right of preemption. There are issues that have not been agreed or resolved however, I think that the first stage is to do all we can to help CCC to work out the best tactics and story to enable the most cost effective purchase of the debt

I believe that speed is of the essence. CCC are not going to be able to keep their negotiations with Sisu running indefinitely, which currently is the only way we have to create sufficient time for us to work out the approach to the YB and for CCC to have the deal taken through the various steps needed within a local

Paul Harris:

The key output for me is to attain a definitive game plan from CCC, for example their intent if/ once the debt is purchased, i.e. do they intend selling part to SISU or ano, what is the loan rate to ACL, for how long, and is the rate fixed.

No wonder PWKH's family of lawyers were very twitchy sending their threats. I do miss PWKH and Paul Harris.

Nick · Jul 8, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Car dealer: OK, £5k
Me: Actually looking again I think it's only worth £3k.
Car dealer: You're taking the piss but £3k.
Me: Nah, I actually reckon it's only worth £2k on reflection.

Spot the pattern yet? No actual money changing hands just a constant downward negotiation.

And just to complete the analogy
Me: £1.5k. It's got some scratches and dents
Car dealer: You just scratched and dented the car!
Me: £1k. It's barely more than scrap and I'm the only one that's going to buy it

Second customer: I'll give you £2k for that car. Here's the money.
Car dealer: Sold!
Me: Why did you sell that car to someone else for that paltry amount?! it's worth more than that. I'm going to complain.

Did that happen? It went from 5.5 to 2m after they went through the books didn't it? I am not sure the original 5.5 was taking the piss either....

Your analogy doesn't really work about the damage either, the whole structure of ACL was to have CCFC funding it all.

mark82 · Jul 8, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
How much money have SISU actually paid towards purchasing the ground in all the years they've been here? None. Zip. Nada. Square root of fuck all.

Until that changes prove to me they DON'T want it for free. Not words saying they'll do something - actual cash changing hands.

You know how mad that sounds, right? The proof, I guess, is that they'd agreed head of terms to buy 50% before the council pulled out. I don't think an offer of zero would have been agreed to.

Also, I'd argue that CCFC have paid more into the stadium over their tenure than Wasps have.

Senior Vick from Alicante · Jul 8, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Car dealer: OK, £5k
Me: Actually looking again I think it's only worth £3k.
Car dealer: You're taking the piss but £3k.
Me: Nah, I actually reckon it's only worth £2k on reflection.

Spot the pattern yet? No actual money changing hands just a constant downward negotiation.

And just to complete the analogy
Me: £1.5k. It's got some scratches and dents
Car dealer: You just scratched and dented the car!
Me: £1k. It's barely more than scrap and I'm the only one that's going to buy it

Second customer: I'll give you £2k for that car. Here's the money.
Car dealer: Sold!
Me: Why did you sell that car to someone else for that paltry amount?! it's worth more than that. I'm going to complain.

Despite your analogys in defence of what has been done. How can you think it's unfair of Sisu to drive the price down knowing the difference between the lengths of lease and costs that the club would have paid compared to the price Wasps paid? It's indefensible. They were offered a better deal for a lower price, as you like the car thing can I have the fiesta for 2k no but you can have that 6k BMW in the corner and charge people for using it.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jul 8, 2020

Nick said:
Did that happen? It went from 5.5 to 2m after they went through the books didn't it? I am not sure the original 5.5 was taking the piss either....

Your analogy doesn't really work about the damage either, the whole structure of ACL was to have CCFC funding it all.

Where is the evidence that they'd have paid that £2m? What in their previous behaviour gives any indication they'd have done so? There is nothing but negotiations that get reneged on with a lower price involved and there is nothing to suggest this time would've been any different. You can convince yourself otherwise, but I find looking at how people act in the past is a very good indicator of how they'll act in the future.

Nick · Jul 8, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Where is the evidence that they'd have paid that £2m? What in their previous behaviour gives any indication they'd have done so? There is nothing but negotiations that get reneged on with a lower price involved and there is nothing to suggest this time would've been any different. You can convince yourself otherwise, but I find looking at how people act in the past is a very good indicator of how they'll act in the future.

No, there is just from £5.5 to £2m isn't there? Once the books had been seen.

Again, you are ignoring my evidence that the Higgs and CCC were just stringing SISU along until the council bailout could go through. Why?

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jul 8, 2020

mark82 said:
You know how mad that sounds, right? The proof, I guess, is that they'd agreed head of terms to buy 50% before the council pulled out. I don't think an offer of zero would have been agreed to.

Also, I'd argue that CCFC have paid more into the stadium over their tenure than Wasps have.

Again this head of terms, contracts agreed crap. It's got to that stage on various occassions and then when it comes time to actually sign on the dotted line and actually pay up it never actually happens. How strange? Until it's signed and paid for it's worth nothing.

Factor in that in a much shorter time both CCC and Higgs managed to agree a contract with Wasps, get it signed and paid up than with SISU who kept on going back and wanting it changed. Don't you find it strange that the one set of people everybody has had trouble dealing with is SISU? If all the different people you have a night out with can go out independently of you and not get into trouble but they all manage to get into trouble when they go out with you, maybe it's you causing the trouble......?

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jul 8, 2020

Nick said:
No, there is just from £5.5 to £2m isn't there? Once the books had been seen.

Again, you are ignoring my evidence that the Higgs and CCC were just stringing SISU along until the council bailout could go through. Why?

SHOW ME THE MONEY! SHOW ME THE MONEY!

Or if you prefer. SHOW ME THE NEW STADIUM! SHOW ME THE NEW STADIUM!

Just words. No action.

chiefdave · Jul 8, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Don't you find it strange that the one set of people everybody has had trouble dealing with is SISU?

Who are you defining as everyone? Any problems at Northampton or Birmingham? Any club we've had transfer dealings with complained?

Nick · Jul 8, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
SHOW ME THE MONEY! SHOW ME THE MONEY!

Or if you prefer. SHOW ME THE NEW STADIUM! SHOW ME THE NEW STADIUM!

Just words. No action.

What are you on about? I wasn't on about a new stadium, I was on about the proof that Higgs and CCC were stallin SISU with negotiations until they could push the bailout through from the council.

I was also asking what else had been changed?

Nick · Jul 8, 2020

chiefdave said:
Who are you defining as everyone? Any problems at Northampton or Birmingham? Any club we've had transfer dealings with complained?

Many people had issues with the council? Has the football club before SISU were about?

Oh....

mr_monkey · Jul 8, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
SHOW ME THE MONEY! SHOW ME THE MONEY!

Or if you prefer. SHOW ME THE NEW STADIUM! SHOW ME THE NEW STADIUM!

Just words. No action.

We'd be a lot further along with a new stadium if the council would reply to emails about sites and also not threaten the city's only real professional rugby club....

mr_monkey · Jul 8, 2020

chiefdave said:
Who are you defining as everyone? Any problems at Northampton or Birmingham? Any club we've had transfer dealings with complained?

Or any problems with our players being paid......

Sky Blue Pete · Jul 8, 2020

chiefdave said:
It's pretty mind-blowing to think that Wasps have the whole thing with a 250 year lease for £6.5m when our original lease had us paying £60m just for 50 years matchday access with an offer to buy access to matchday revenues for £24m.

Just have a quick think about what Wasps got for £6.5m compared to what was on offer to us for £84m.

Great shout and no wonder ms Seppalla feels that they received a handout

Sky Blue Pete · Jul 8, 2020

chiefdave said:
Who are you defining as everyone? Any problems at Northampton or Birmingham? Any club we've had transfer dealings with complained?

Another really good point.

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