RIP Labour (1 Viewer)

mrtrench · Sep 25, 2016

I was always puzzled why the leadership of Momentum described themselves as Trotskyists rather than communists. I knew that Trotsky had played a big part in the Russian revolution but then fallen out with Stalin & Lenin and was eventually assassinated by Stalin (I first learned this, I confess, from the Stranglers' song 'No More Heroes'). I did some research and discovered that there were essentially two differences of opinion:

1) Trotsky wanted global communism, he believed that it would only succeed if the entire world underwent a communist revolution.
2) He also believed in more democracy rather than a dictatorship.

SkyblueBazza · Sep 25, 2016

Grendel said:
For the sake of democratic process as a whole the labour MP's need to isolate themselves from parliament. Let Corbyn and his fellow anarchic anti Semite terrorist worshiping thugs sit alone in parliament - then immediately declare a no confidence vote and start the process again.

What? And instead of a joke, become an utter laughing stock?

Why not have a General Election & Brexit vote on alternate weeks until we get the right result for you too?

Corbyn has been overwhelmingly supported by the people who are passionate enough to be members of the party & do the voting for the party in elections. Ignore them & they will both cancel membership & take their vote elsewhere. Corbyn is the one thing they have to get around & support. If they cannot do that from top to bottom then they deserve to be unelectable.

Parallels of us & the team. For all the bickering about owners, stadia, pies & team selections. We (should) all passionately support (get behind) the team as soon as they set foot onto the pitch!

...onwards & upwards PUSB

SkyblueBazza · Sep 25, 2016

Grendel said:
That's not the way politics works I'm afraid. Party membership is tiny. Many of these members are not Labour Party members at all but socialists and anarchists and extreme zeonosts. The democratic thing would have been at the original ballot to just have the original membership vote.

Most voters are not party members and never will be. The party is self destructing. Corbyn is foot and McDonnell is most definitely Benn - the real puppet master.

There is no healey or Kinnock emerging who have the stomach for a fight. Unless you want a one party state led by Chairman May I suggest you prey someone emerges from the pack.

Ahhh...now alternatively - keep changing the rules until we get the "right" result for you?

...onwards & upwards PUSB

SkyblueBazza · Sep 25, 2016

M&B Stand said:
Socialism always looks more appealing on paper and in theory, capitalism works better in practice.

Capitalism works??? Have you seen the disparity between rich & poor??? (I.e. it works for the rich!)
Have you seen how much the collective debt is for the world??? Can't you see the damage capitalism has done to Mother Earth? Yes there are some benefits to both systems. Those for capitalism seem to be generally accepted as outweighing the negatives...only time will tell

...onwards & upwards PUSB

mrtrench · Sep 25, 2016

SkyblueBazza said:
Capitalism works??? Have you seen the disparity between rich & poor???

It's not perfect but it works. With capitalism there will always be disparities in wealth because the emphasis is on each person to make of themselves what they will - not all will want to work hard and not all are born with the skills or persistence to make wealth. Despite all the rhetoric, the only "poverty" in the UK is chosen.

It's quite a different thing in other parts of the world - but these places are typified by extreme corruption.

Captain Dart · Sep 25, 2016

rob9872 said:
At least we know Corbyn is a nut job. Smith looked electable and when he suggested he would sit round the table to negotiate with IS it was more dangerous than I could have imagined. It should be a shoe in at the next election, but hope Conservative voters don't get complacent or the mentalists might manage to take over the asylum.

Neither looked remotely credible to me. In fact I can't see anything in the Labour party that hasn't got a large dose of bonkers in it.

Whilst I like some of their policies I think they'll go rushing in to try and change everything all at once, make an almighty cock up of it and bankrupt the country in the process.

However dramatic political swings have happened in the past, look at what happened to the Conservative Party at the end of WWII. Are things so stressed that something like that will happen, I don't think so while unemployment is going down (around 8% 5yrs ago, under 5% now ).

M&B Stand · Sep 25, 2016

SkyblueBazza said:
Capitalism works??? Have you seen the disparity between rich & poor??? (I.e. it works for the rich!)

...onwards & upwards PUSB

Works better than socialism yes. Be careful what you wish for bazza.

SkyblueBazza · Sep 25, 2016

M&B Stand said:
Works better than socialism yes. Be careful what you wish for bazza.

All I wish is that the whole sorry lot f them would crawl under a rock & discuss their own inevitable demise until the cows come home. The politicians produce nothing but noise. Others either make their policies work or not.

...onwards & upwards PUSB

Grendel · Sep 25, 2016

SkyblueBazza said:
Ahhh...now alternatively - keep changing the rules until we get the "right" result for you?

...onwards & upwards PUSB

I think you will find the actual labour members voted for anyone but Corbyn. It was an influx of militant tendency that allowed this to happen.

I suggest you do a bit of research. Corbyn isn't the smiley smiley man he appears. His record is truly appalling. He has voted against his own party many many times yet bleats when he gets a taste of his own medicine. The real point though is the bullying, the anti Semite, anti female tendency that Corbyn will not stop. This is a baying mob.

It's a joke that Corbyn is worshipped by youth as a new breed of politics. He's an archeologist find. A relic from another world. A world if the imbecilic youth who support him experienced for a second would quickly demand a return to the present.

SkyblueBazza · Sep 26, 2016

Grendel said:
I think you will find the actual labour members voted for anyone but Corbyn. It was an influx of militant tendency that allowed this to happen.

I suggest you do a bit of research. Corbyn isn't the smiley smiley man he appears. His record is truly appalling. He has voted against his own party many many times yet bleats when he gets a taste of his own medicine. The real point though is the bullying, the anti Semite, anti female tendency that Corbyn will not stop. This is a baying mob.

It's a joke that Corbyn is worshipped by youth as a new breed of politics. He's an archeologist find. A relic from another world. A world if the imbecilic youth who support him experienced for a second would quickly demand a return to the present.

Bleat away all you like. The Labour party sets it's method of electing the leader & it has twice elected Corbyn. The people who can - have!
Corbyn is who the party, by its own rules, has elected TWICE now as leader...it stands or falls accordingly just like the tories having elected TM (see what I did there?

)

...onwards & upwards PUSB

lifeskyblue · Sep 26, 2016

The cock up in the Labour Party election rules has allowed such an influx of new 'not traditional' labour members that the party is in turmoil. Corbyn may have 60%+ of members but that doesn't mean he has that level of support amongst labour voters. Nobody can deny that he is democratically elected leader under the parties rules but the rules have been shown to be easily manipulated by one faction. The next general election should be interesting (and worrying) in that I believe the Tories will win by a landslide and wipe labour out of many of its strongholds.
What may change that? Well possibly there will be a swing from labour to ukip (even more worrying for many labour voters). Or labour will split and the PLP form a new party. This for a couple of elections might divide the labour vote...allowing Tories in for a couple of elections. Or both the new and old parties could decline leaving the liberals as the natural opposition.
Whatever happens I fear that for a generation this country will be ruled by the Tories without a credible opposition. That must be of concern to everyone in the country including the majority of Tory supporters and democrats everywhere. Democracy only works if an opposition is ready to take over if the electorate wishes

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Nick · Sep 26, 2016

I saw a clip on the news last night, I don't know much about politics but people were jumping around like somebody had just scored a goal.

Is it really that passionate?

lifeskyblue · Sep 26, 2016

Nick said:
I saw a clip on the news last night, I don't know much about politics but people were jumping around like somebody had just scored a goal.

Is it really that passionate?

Certainly can be very passionate. Next election go to the Counting centre and see the tribal attitudes (rosettes worn like football colours, shouting matches and occasional punch ups), conspiracy theorists (accusing counters of putting votes in wrong piles etc) and the euphoria and despair shown by the winners and losers.

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skybluejelly · Sep 26, 2016

Nick said:
I saw a clip on the news last night, I don't know much about politics but people were jumping around like somebody had just scored a goal.

Is it really that passionate?

that was the conservatives celebrating

mrtrench · Sep 26, 2016

If you believe in international communism and haven't had a chance of power or influence for thirty years I imagine you'd be very excited. There's also many enthusiastic supporters who I believe to be naive and think it is a great thing.

fernandopartridge · Sep 26, 2016

I do wish people would stop going on about capitalism. We have nothing like true capitalism in the world. Look at what happened after the banking crisis. Look at how money is created.

Deleted member 5849 · Sep 26, 2016

fernandopartridge said:
I do wish people would stop going on about capitalism. We have nothing like true capitalism in the world. Look at what happened after the banking crisis. Look at how money is created.

Yup, the same as Stalin's 'communism' was anything but.

Be better to say the dominant financial and social system over recent years has been a mixed economy, and the only issue is how much weight you give to state and/or private enterprise.

(I'll also refrain from pointing out Marx welcomed capitalism as a stage of progress for society too )

Captain Dart · Sep 26, 2016

lifeskyblue said:
The cock up in the Labour Party election rules has allowed such an influx of new 'not traditional' labour members that the party is in turmoil. Corbyn may have 60%+ of members but that doesn't mean he has that level of support amongst labour voters. Nobody can deny that he is democratically elected leader under the parties rules but the rules have been shown to be easily manipulated by one faction. The next general election should be interesting (and worrying) in that I believe the Tories will win by a landslide and wipe labour out of many of its strongholds.
What may change that? Well possibly there will be a swing from labour to ukip (even more worrying for many labour voters). Or labour will split and the PLP form a new party. This for a couple of elections might divide the labour vote...allowing Tories in for a couple of elections. Or both the new and old parties could decline leaving the liberals as the natural opposition.
Whatever happens I fear that for a generation this country will be ruled by the Tories without a credible opposition. That must be of concern to everyone in the country including the majority of Tory supporters and democrats everywhere. Democracy only works if an opposition is ready to take over if the electorate wishes

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I think Ed changed the rules but he was not sufficiently smart to understand what could happen.

I genuinely think (some Generals of) the far left contrived to get Corbyn in full knowledge of how they could manipulate the vote by signing up their troops en mass after he was on the ticket. A calculated gamble that paid off and will ultimately kill the Labour party’s electoral chances but leave the far left with a strong voice in Parliament. Then its a case of waiting 10 years for a disaffected electorate to get pissed off with Tory rule and press the stupid button again.

mrtrench · Sep 27, 2016

Deleted member 5849 said:
Yup, the same as Stalin's 'communism' was anything but.

I agree. I'm reading a biography of Mao just now and he was a very nasty piece of work even as a young man. The implication is that he got into communism because the russians paid him so much to be leader of his local branch. He then loved the power it gave him and stabbed every rival in the back. But that's part of the problem isn't it? We have relatively few examples of countries that try it and in every case it has gone bad - in many cases by attracting the wrong kind of people to the top. Corbyn may appear to be a nice chap now, but if he ever got power he'd be usurped by someone like Bob Crow. Don't get me wrong - I also think that Corbyn's policies are nuts - this is just an additional risk on top.

When I was younger I agreed with socialism because it sounds so great on paper and it wasn't until I realised how badly it performs in practice that I abandoned it.

oucho · Sep 27, 2016

I voted Labour under Blair as they simply seemed the most competent option, but then switched to Cameron when it was clear that Brown was going down the tubes. No way would I consider voting for Labour at the moment - maybe when they get their act together and get shot of the bearded one.

chiefdave · Sep 27, 2016

Apparently thanks to all the extra members Corbyn has attracted Labour are now debt free.

oucho · Sep 27, 2016

chiefdave said:
Apparently thanks to all the extra members Corbyn has attracted Labour are now debt free.

Maybe they should go along with Tony Benn's original idea of annual re-selection of the leader, they'd be quids in as more students / dreamers / Militants flock to the colours. The mistake JC makes is that he thinks these people are representative of the country a whole (as did Foot before him who was feted at huge rallies in 83). In reality, the more popular Momentum is, the more the mainstream voters will take fright.

fernandopartridge · Sep 27, 2016

oucho said:
Maybe they should go along with Tony Benn's original idea of annual re-selection of the leader, they'd be quids in as more students / dreamers / Militants flock to the colours. The mistake JC makes is that he thinks these people are representative of the country a whole (as did Foot before him who was feted at huge rallies in 83). In reality, the more popular Momentum is, the more the mainstream voters will take fright.

Rather a dreamer than somebody who votes with the majority.

westcountry_skyblue · Sep 27, 2016

Corbyn saying Labour are gonna spend Billions again,While interest rates are low, He's no different from all other labour leaders bankrupt the country if he ever got in not a chance in my book.
Power to the unions again asking for 30% pay rises.
Now they've changed their nuclear policy not that Corbyn supports it by the looks of it.
What a shambles of a party,No chance of getting the working class vote again while this socialist,loony left are inside them.
Just a protest party for the foreseeable future.
I think ukip will get a lot of their votes in labour heartlands,And as for gaining votes in Scotland well......

rondog1973 · Sep 27, 2016

oucho said:
I voted Labour under Blair as they simply seemed the most competent option, but then switched to Cameron when it was clear that Brown was going down the tubes. No way would I consider voting for Labour at the moment - maybe when they get their act together and get shot of the bearded one.

You sound like someone who does what 'The Sun Says'.....

chiefdave · Sep 27, 2016

oucho said:
they'd be quids in as more students / dreamers / Militants flock to the colours. The mistake JC makes is that he thinks these people are representative of the country a whole.

That could very well be correct. However what we have more than ever now is voter disenfranchisement. There's just under 39m registered to vote in England (note that's only those who bothered to register), around 20m votes were cast in the last general election. Conservatives got 10.5m, Labour 8.1m.

Now while the voting system we use means its not who gets the most votes in total you don't have to be a genius to work out that with 19m not bothering to vote and a difference of only 2.4m if someone, be it Corbyn or whoever is Labour leader at that point, can mobilise just 10 to 15% of those people it could really shake things up.

In an ideal world the whole thing needs a big shake up. I think the best thing would be for those to the right on the Labour side and the left on the Conservative side split to form a new party. A genuine 3 party system, if they have roughly equal shares of the vote, could give the drive voter reform means. Its ridiculous that out of 39m voters the only people whose votes really count are those in the marginals.

mrtrench · Sep 28, 2016

rondog1973 said:
You sound like someone who does what 'The Sun Says'.....

Or someone who thinks for themselves each time rather than always voting for the same party.

mrtrench · Sep 28, 2016

chiefdave said:
In an ideal world the whole thing needs a big shake up. I think the best thing would be for those to the right on the Labour side and the left on the Conservative side split to form a new party. A genuine 3 party system, if they have roughly equal shares of the vote, could give the drive voter reform means. Its ridiculous that out of 39m voters the only people whose votes really count are those in the marginals.

I agree it would be good, however I cannot see the Tories splitting - why would they? I'd like to see the Liberals as a major party, I think they did an exceptional job in the Coalition and have been badly treated. The problem for Labour is that the SDP has been seen to fail - IMO that is the cause of the current fighting - both sides need the Labour brand.

mrtrench · Oct 7, 2016

The rumour is that Tony Blair is returning to Politics. :O

clint van damme · Oct 7, 2016

mrtrench said:
It's not perfect but it works. With capitalism there will always be disparities in wealth because the emphasis is on each person to make of themselves what they will - not all will want to work hard and not all are born with the skills or persistence to make wealth. Despite all the rhetoric, the only "poverty" in the UK is chosen.

It's quite a different thing in other parts of the world - but these places are typified by extreme corruption.

that is absolute rubbish.

M&B Stand · Oct 8, 2016

Im not sure shadow ministers Emily Thornberry & Dianne Abbott will appeal to the core working class support in the midlands and the north....and vice versa.

westcountry_skyblue · Oct 8, 2016

M&B Stand said:
Im not sure shadow ministers Emily Thornberry & Dianne Abbott will appeal to the core working class support in the midlands and the north....and vice versa.

Dianne Abbott part of the shadow'London Elite' Labour front bench.
You couldn't make it up she is so bigoted its unreal,She even claims Chairman MAO was good for China forgot the fact he murdered 60 million of his own people.
Puts Hitler and Stalin to shame!

mrtrench · Oct 8, 2016

westcountry_skyblue said:
Dianne Abbott part of the shadow'London Elite' Labour front bench.
You couldn't make it up she is so bigoted its unreal,She even claims Chairman MAO was good for China forgot the fact he murdered 60 million of his own people.
Puts Hitler and Stalin to shame!

I'm reading a biography of Mao; he's just finished the long march, during which he had foot soldiers carry him in a sedan chair. A more despicable person you would never meet - he deliberately put the red army in jeopardy and murdered colleagues in his single pursuit for power. He tortured people to get them to confess to being anti-Bolshevik. He stole from the peasants and killed them - the poor hated him. He pitted them against each other by calling the peasants with even the smallest amount of land "bourgeois"; took everything he could & then treated the people he got to follow like shit. I'm sure he did far worse when he got to power as he was a complete psychopath - but I'm not there yet in the book. I believe she said that "some people believe he did more harm than good". He must have been Mother Theresa and Christ combined to undo all the evil he's done so far - and I'm only up to 1935.

mrtrench · Oct 8, 2016

clint van damme said:
that is absolute rubbish.

Well it's an abstract term so one can choose whatever definition one wants. Compared to most every other place on earth the least wealthy in the UK have plenty: they don't want for food; somewhere to live or heat in winter. They may choose to forgo normal basic needs by spending their money on other things or refusing to move to another location or behaving recklessly. I'm not pretending they live comfortably but for me if you are given accommodation and money to eat then that cannot be termed poverty by global or historic standards.

chiefdave · Oct 8, 2016

mrtrench said:
he deliberately put the red army in jeopardy
He stole from the peasants and killed them - the poor hated him.
He pitted them against each other by calling the peasants with even the smallest amount of land "bourgeois"; took everything he could & then treated the people he got to follow like shit.

Are you sure its not David Cameron's biography

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