SBS&L accounts 2016 (11 Viewers)

letsallsingtogether · Mar 2, 2017

oldfiver said:
I think you will find that Mowbray said he had sufficient funds - it was his choices using those funds that failed!

So maybe he was told he had those funds, but as usual our owner stretched the truth and when their bluff was called the truth dawned on him?
we were doomed.
After all we are still waiting for this preferred site we kept hearing about.

christonabike · Mar 2, 2017

Dont be silly Earlsdonskyblue blames TM with his £470k budget. Might not be £470k but he knows more than the books say.
Earlsdon come and give us an insight as you no doubt know more than you are letting on..............selling the best player for fook all to Bradford plus Sordell at Christmas was obviously just a ploy.
Is it working? As they say you decide.:yawn:

Captain Dart · Mar 2, 2017

stupot07 said:
Looking at the league table, I can only conclude we have the lowest wage bill in the league

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Won't know till this time next year.

wingy · Mar 2, 2017

letsallsingtogether said:
So maybe he was told he had those funds, but as usual our owner stretched the truth and when their bluff was called the truth dawned on him?
we were doomed.
After all we are still waiting for this preferred site we kept hearing about.

Well MV stated in an SCG meeting they set At £2.1M for the season.
Equating to another cut of £200K, as in the season before.
I seriously doubt that figure has been met.
I'd say £1.8M at the very best.

wingy · Mar 2, 2017

oldfiver said:
I think you will find that Mowbray said he had sufficient funds - it was his choices using those funds that failed!

In public maybe
In private it seems not.

Brylowes · Mar 2, 2017

Honestly think CCFC will be gone inside 2 years, I've thought it SISUs goal since they
Fucked up the Ricoh, every single thing they do brings the end closer.
People ask why would they, what would they gain, I don't know 'I don't really understand
Insolvency law, but you can bet your bottom dollar they do.

Kingokings204 · Mar 2, 2017

Brylowes said:
Honestly think CCFC will be gone inside 2 years, I've thought it SISUs goal since they
Fucked up the Ricoh, every single thing they do brings the end closer.
People ask why would they, what would they gain, I don't know 'I don't really understand
Insolvency law, but you can bet your bottom dollar they do.

I agree. I'm not expert but the figures and sisu's actions don't hear around a long term football club that could be successful.

I can't see this ending nicely or happy. We need a miracle.

Super Graham Withey · Mar 2, 2017

oldskyblue58 said:
one thing that puzzles me is the £800k withholding tax cost. That's seems a very big figure just for the one year. I thought the rate was 20% ?

This must relate to tax which in part relates to interest in previous years? Debt factoring interest seems odd? Fisher , Waggot and Deering earning £215.5k between them, mainly Waggot I would think. Why have employers NI and pension costs fallen so significantly in staff costs, looks a bit odd?

wingy · Mar 2, 2017

oldfiver said:
Owls losses widen but play-off run boosts turnover
1 Mar 2017 Yorkshire

Losses have doubled in the latest accounts for Sheffield Wednesday although the promotion-chasing club enjoyed a surge in turnover after reaching the play-off final last season.

In accounts published this morning, Sheffield Wednesday made a pre-tax loss of £9.8m, up from £4.5m a season earlier. Operating losses rose from £3.9m to £9.7m over the same period.

However, turnover for the year rose by £7.1m to £22m as the club reached the Championship play-off final at Wembley, increased average league attendance from 21,997 to 22,641 and improved revenue generated by commercial activities.

The Owls finished sixth in the Championship in 2015/16, an improvement on the 13th place they achieved in the previous campaign.

A reliance on chairman Dejphon Chansiri to meet obligations led to the inclusion of a warning note from auditors about the club's ability to continue as a going concern should the situation change, although the Thai businessman has confirmed his support.

The existence of "material uncertainty" is not uncommon in football club accounts as many rely on the support of a beneficial owner.

Clearly they could benefit from TF's expertise and tested formula.
I remember our beneficial owner and her wealthy backers promising to fund any losses incurred due to the Sixfields move.
Trouble was that £4M of player sales, instead of benefiting the football Club on its return from exile instead covered her and Fishers ineptitude.

Brylowes · Mar 2, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
I agree. I'm not expert but the figures and sisu's actions don't hear around a long term football club that could be successful.

I can't see this ending nicely or happy. We need a miracle.

Exactly, the miracle would be someone purchasing us but as our value plummets further By the day
(if that's even possible) and SISU having ring-fenced the club with toxic debt.
I really can't see any light at all, there's no doubt SISU would rather be free from the Troublesome
itch that is CCFC, so it would seem there's only one option left on the table For them.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Mar 2, 2017

christonabike said:
Dont be silly Earlsdonskyblue blames TM with his £470k budget. Might not be £470k but he knows more than the books say.
Earlsdon come and give us an insight as you no doubt know more than you are letting on..............selling the best player for fook all to Bradford plus Sordell at Christmas was obviously just a ploy.
Is it working? As they say you decide.:yawn:

I'm not saying the budget was good, or that it wasn't lower than the precious year. What I am saying is that you cannot just blame SISU, Mowbray made a lot of mistakes, including:

1) Letting Martin go
2) Not signing a replacement for Martin, O'Brien, Reda etc
3) Telling Vincelot he could go (Mowbray's own words)
4) Not replacing Vincelot
5) Signing Bigi
6) Trying to sign championship players, and concentrating all resources on this
7) Not acting when deadline day was getting closer
8) Signing Wright
9) Signing Reid on a big wage

10) The strangest of all these? Coming out and saying he wasn't sure exactly what the budget was, and that was handled by Venus.

Now, you can blame SISU for some of these points I've made, but not all of them I'm sure. Point number 10 itself speaks volumes.

dongonzalos · Mar 2, 2017

nearly fell off my seat when the observer provided a unbiased account about the accounts.
Especially the last lines, for once actually saying what the majority of the fan base feel. Instead of spouting the thoughts of a tiny minority and portraying it as the thoughts of the majority.
Then I looked at the name of the correspondent.....

Coventry City’s latest accounts show £600,000 profit but club fires warning over relegation

Brylowes · Mar 2, 2017

dongonzalos said:
nearly fell off my seat when the obsever provided a unbiased account about the accounts.
Especially the last lines for once actually saying what the majority of the fan base feel. Instead of spouting the thoughts of a tiny minority and portraying it as the thoughts of the majority.
Then I looked at the name of the correspondent.....

Coventry City’s latest accounts show £600,000 profit but club fires warning over relegation

Where's Les.:emoji_hushed:

dongonzalos · Mar 2, 2017

Brylowes said:
Where's Les.:emoji_hushed:

Bad time to be on holiday, when the PR role is needed the most. Although why doesn't whoever wrote it,have a name? I thought every journalist wants their name attached to their work.

wingy · Mar 2, 2017

Brylowes said:
Where's Les.:emoji_hushed:

I think he's become a tad Schizophrenic.
Seems to be around Ryton a lot covering team affairs, stepping all over Steve Carpenters toes.
However he did attempt to deliver the expected indoctrination through a tenuous peice about Wasps and some business gathering.

wingy · Mar 2, 2017

I don't know If this Is the right thread anymore but the Pension Contributions are interesting and confusing.
Very high apparently last year, extremely low this.
What say you Mr Trench?

dongonzalos · Mar 2, 2017

wingy said:
I don't know If this Is the right thread anymore but the Pension Contributions are interesting and confusing.
Very high apparently last year, extremely low this.
What say you Mr Trench?

What about the changes to players bonus' line (remember all those rumours )

wingy · Mar 2, 2017

dongonzalos said:
What about the changes to players bonus' line (remember all those rumours )

Yeah just put that somewhere in a different thread.
Rumours of it on here, just about when form went out the window prior to Christmas.
Edit :- So did that happen mid season?
Being top obviously meant they were earning too much?

dongonzalos · Mar 3, 2017

wingy said:
Yeah just put that somewhere in a different thread.
Rumours of it on here, just about when form went out the window prior to Christmas.
Edit :- So did that happen mid season?
Being top obviously meant they were earning too much?

Possibly wasnt bollox then was it, bad time to mess with people's wages when promotion was on the horizon. How much did we save how much did we lose?
Who first put it on here?

wingy · Mar 3, 2017

dongonzalos said:
Possibly wasnt bollox then was it, bad time to mess with people's wages when promotion was on the horizon. How much did we save how much did we lose?
Who first put it on here?

Anderson?
Or?

Stafford_SkBlue · Mar 3, 2017

The match receipts look a bit low, season 15/16 - we had an average crowd of 12,500 which gives 288,000 for all our home games.
Match receipts (net) were £2.31 which is £8 per person per game. Face value of the tickets include 20% VAT, so a £20 ticket is actually £16 after VAT.
Does £8 seem right?
Crewe for the season before booked £2.79m for match receipts.
End of the day our turnover is £5.45m with staff cost of £4.5m, in a good season, will always require selling players to balance the books, (Crewe staff cost were £2.79m).
With 30% decrease in attendance this season, current year accounts wont look very good.
Bury run with losses of £5 to£8m consistently per year, but thats ok for the fair play, as the owner puts the money in. The fair play rules need changing so its a % of the turnover, then Clubs with bigger crowds will have a advantage in the lower leagues.

stupot07 · Mar 3, 2017

Stafford_SkBlue said:
The match receipts look a bit low, season 15/16 - we had an average crowd of 12,500 which gives 288,000 for all our home games.
Match receipts (net) were £2.31 which is £8 per person per game. Face value of the tickets include 20% VAT, so a £20 ticket is actually £16 after VAT.
Does £8 seem right?
Crewe for the season before booked £2.79m for match receipts.
.

Yes that seems right, it usually works out around £9-£10 per person per game (think is was c£9.60 the previous season IIRC), last year we had heavily discounted ST's and matchday tickets plus we sold a lot of matchday packages, plus a lot of freebies. Add to that quite a lot of concessions, inc. those that wrongly buy kids tickets so they can sneak in cheaper. Plus JSB's and their STs were free this season, I think they were £25 last season.

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oldskyblue58 · Mar 3, 2017

Audit implications of comfort letters from owners.

Firstly lets be clear what these letters of support from SISU/LB to SBS&L are (there will have to be a separate ones to Otium (from ARVO/SBS&L) ). It is an expression of intention at the date at which it is signed that the Loans provided will not be called in and that the intention is to help SBS&L and Otium source additional funding (either internally or externally). It is not a contractual commitment to actually do either of those things. It states for the foreseeable future, which you might think implies it cant be called in, but that is not the case. If circumstances at SISU or ARVO change or it is in their best interests to call the loans in then they can, next month, six months away, next year. They just don't have the intention on 27/02/2017 when the reports were signed

Implications for going concern. Well the letter should be the last piece in the jigsaw not the thing that going concern is pinned on entirely. There must be a viable plan including cash flows budgets , there must be issues such as potential loss of Academy, training site or home ground addressed, issues such as the need for funding in 6 months addressed, the potential damage of relegation will do to turnover, the possibility of player sales, the windfall from Wembley, the potential for the sale of Ryton, does it work for at least 12 months after signing the report, can the club afford to put a viable squad together next season (2017/18), what has happened between 01/06/2016 and 27/02/2017 when reports signed, the recent history and other such issues.

Having addressed the actions/plans of the directors on these issues then you add in the comfort of a letter of intent from the owners, where the auditor will have to satisfy themselves they can rely on those intentions, that the owners have a history of support, are able to support, that they have access to sufficient funds to support etc. It is not, or should not be, and is not a matter of blindly accepting a piece of paper expressing at a particular date an intention. Without the information in the previous paragraph then there is no way of knowing what support is required, if you don't know what is required you cannot assess the owners intention to support the club.

The auditor must investigate the basis of all these and similar issues before forming an opinion on going concern. Must find evidence that supports their opinion not just accept what they are told. You have to assume the auditors have satisfied themselves on all this

Can other creditors rely on these letters, they could choose to but I think that would be very unwise. (would say that about any business in similar circumstances not just CCFC). Recent court cases have indicated that the comfort such letters give to creditors is not as great as it might seem

The material uncertainty is not whether there is a letter as such, it is whether there is a going concern with sufficient funding, a viable business at least 12 months from now, is there any reason for the major creditors to pull the plug and do they have an intention/need to do so.

Captain Dart · Mar 3, 2017

Brylowes said:
Honestly think CCFC will be gone inside 2 years, I've thought it SISUs goal since they
Fucked up the Ricoh, every single thing they do brings the end closer.
People ask why would they, what would they gain, I don't know 'I don't really understand
Insolvency law, but you can bet your bottom dollar they do.

Beginning to look more & more like that is the plan, though I imagine they'll eventually sell it if they can get a £1M or so & leave someone else with the problems.

Captain Dart · Mar 3, 2017

Stafford_SkBlue said:
The match receipts look a bit low, season 15/16 - we had an average crowd of 12,500 which gives 288,000 for all our home games.
Match receipts (net) were £2.31 which is £8 per person per game. Face value of the tickets include 20% VAT, so a £20 ticket is actually £16 after VAT.
Does £8 seem right?
Crewe for the season before booked £2.79m for match receipts.
End of the day our turnover is £5.45m with staff cost of £4.5m, in a good season, will always require selling players to balance the books, (Crewe staff cost were £2.79m).
With 30% decrease in attendance this season, current year accounts wont look very good.
Bury run with losses of £5 to£8m consistently per year, but thats ok for the fair play, as the owner puts the money in. The fair play rules need changing so its a % of the turnover, then Clubs with bigger crowds will have a advantage in the lower leagues.

There are a number of season tickets, junior tickets & concessions in those figures. Hard to say without some numbers on the various categories.

clint van damme · Mar 3, 2017

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
I'm not saying the budget was good, or that it wasn't lower than the precious year. What I am saying is that you cannot just blame SISU, Mowbray made a lot of mistakes, including:

1) Letting Martin go
2) Not signing a replacement for Martin, O'Brien, Reda etc
3) Telling Vincelot he could go (Mowbray's own words)
4) Not replacing Vincelot
5) Signing Bigi
6) Trying to sign championship players, and concentrating all resources on this
7) Not acting when deadline day was getting closer
8) Signing Wright
9) Signing Reid on a big wage

10) The strangest of all these? Coming out and saying he wasn't sure exactly what the budget was, and that was handled by Venus.

Now, you can blame SISU for some of these points I've made, but not all of them I'm sure. Point number 10 itself speaks volumes.

Selling Vincelot and using the money to replace Martin with Turnbull was certainly a strange one.

oldskyblue58 · Mar 3, 2017

SBS&L Group key date financial summary

22/02/2008 Opening balance sheet
Assets
Tangible 1515556
Intangible 3854460
current 2505321
Total Assets 7875337

Liabilities
Creditors 16476229
less written off *6000000 = 10476229
net liabilities -2,600,892
(* amount written off is the payment due on promotion to premiership)

31/05/2012 first year end after Fisher appointed
Assets
Tangible 961710
Intangible 951900
current 3128730
Total Assets 5042340

Liabilities
Creditors 42780404
net liabilities -37,738,064

31/05/2016 latest results
Assets
Tangible 428157
Intangible 181215
current 1708820
Total Assets 2318192

Liabilities
Creditors 45721112
net Liabilities -43,402,920

I don't think I need to comment further

Sub · Mar 3, 2017

oldskyblue58 said:
SBS&L Group key date financial summary

22/02/2008 Opening balance sheet
Assets
Tangible 1515556
Intangible 3854460
current 2505321
Total Assets 7875337

Liabilities
Creditors 16476229
less written off *6000000 = 10476229
net liabilities -2,600,892
(* amount written off is the payment due on promotion to premiership)

31/05/2012 first year end after Fisher appointed
Assets
Tangible 961710
Intangible 951900
current 3128730
Total Assets 5042340

Liabilities
Creditors 42780404
net liabilities -37,738,064

31/05/2016 latest results
Assets
Tangible 428157
Intangible 181215
current 1708820
Total Assets 2318192

Liabilities
Creditors 45721112
net Liabilities -43,402,920

So we are in the shit big time and will dissapear without a trace the way things are going ?

skybluebeduff · Mar 3, 2017

Thus proving buying a season ticket will not, and will never help the club out of this mess. It really is time to boycott and allow the inevitable death of our club a speedier transaction. Seriously what other choice do we have? We cannot survive with SISU as owners anymore, it's 100% clear that we can't.

skybluebeduff · Mar 3, 2017

oldskyblue58 said:
SBS&L Group key date financial summary

22/02/2008 Opening balance sheet
Assets
Tangible 1515556
Intangible 3854460
current 2505321
Total Assets 7875337

Liabilities
Creditors 16476229
less written off *6000000 = 10476229
net liabilities -2,600,892
(* amount written off is the payment due on promotion to premiership)

31/05/2012 first year end after Fisher appointed
Assets
Tangible 961710
Intangible 951900
current 3128730
Total Assets 5042340

Liabilities
Creditors 42780404
net liabilities -37,738,064

31/05/2016 latest results
Assets
Tangible 428157
Intangible 181215
current 1708820
Total Assets 2318192

Liabilities
Creditors 45721112
net Liabilities -43,402,920

I don't think I need to comment further

Yet fisher said he's reduced the debt massively didn't he?

SkyBlueCharlie · Mar 3, 2017

I posted earlier in this discussion concerning the short-term nature of the outsourcing contracts signed during the year. Coupled with today's news in the CT that Wasps are still refusing to take part in any negotiations over extending the lease beyond 2017/8 is it possible that the the owners are not planning beyond the end of that season?

Nick · Mar 3, 2017

skybluebeduff said:
Thus proving buying a season ticket will not, and will never help the club out of this mess. It really is time to boycott and allow the inevitable death of our club a speedier transaction. Seriously what other choice do we have? We cannot survive with SISU as owners anymore, it's 100% clear that we can't.

How does that prove that?

Make your mind up, NOPM, not NOPM, back to NOPM again.

You want to kill the club? OK then.

Nick · Mar 3, 2017

SkyBlueCharlie said:
I posted earlier in this discussion concerning the short-term nature of the outsourcing contracts signed during the year. Coupled with today's news in the CT that Wasps are still refusing to take part in any negotiations over extending the lease beyond 2017/8 is it possible that the the owners are not planning beyond the end of that season?

Is it news today or anything new?

SkyBlueCharlie · Mar 3, 2017

Nick said:
Is it news today or anything new?

New (I think) in today's on-line CT. Appears to be a follow up article. here's the link http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/fears-coventry-city-could-leave-12683501nk:

torchomatic · Mar 3, 2017

oldskyblue58 said:
I think the finances certainly contributed to the poor recruitment, but you can not excuse the bad choices by Mowbray and the side kick Venus. Other clubs have put together better teams on smaller budgets

Absolutely. Despite excuses given to Mowbray, his recruitment was shocking last summer.

SBS&L accounts 2016 (11 Viewers)

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