Oh, how wrong we were. what gets me is the lack of foresight on her part. Terrible record as owners up to bottoming out. That way years after TF said numerous things that suggested they wouldn‘t sell until they were at the top of the curve. His silence has been welcome which suggests she is more hands on nowadays. Or she put the right people in the right places. That will have cost money, not some dreamers who did well at Subbuteo and fancied a go at investing. The list of failures in those years was telling. The club sunk to its lowest due to those people.Not sure you can answer this without knowing who, if anyone, is waiting to take on the club. Remember when SISU were welcomed by most as 'things can't get any worse'. Lets try and not make that mistake again.
Some trajectory that was. A known pattern of shit off the field. A distressing time. performing shit, adding to it. cutting out the good food, more shit, diarrhoea and then league 2. Never got off the potty for years. So getting up and walking away from the shit is an improvement. Obviously. It’s what she feeds the club over the next few years that will count.Well we are aren't we? From where we were last season, and season before, and before, blah blah
I’m bitter as well. What a fantastic strategy. Take on the whole world and alienate the people who are the lifeblood. Divide them in the process. Great time to be a city supporter wasn’t ? wont forgive, never forget. Even if we made the Prem, SISU already made an indelible mark on our history.And this is the best time to challenge and ask the questions, complacency with supporters is always a concern to me.
Toxic Tim successfully guided us from a championship club to the dregs of division four supported throughout by JS,
I talk about Sixfields or St. Andrews
Me neither, or the Cobblers. But hey, none of this matters now that we are back to where we started when they took over. (As pointed out by another person) I'll give them the two or three league places in 630+ that they have played since then. Mustn't grumble. Sorry, i'm just having a rant and don't mean anybody any offense.Out of interest did you go to St Andrews
It's amazing that joy has turned opinion on its head and if reflects all fans overall a 64% approval rating is I guess allowing boddy and robins freedoms to do there jobs.
I wonder if this would be the same result for a SISU poll?
Sisu lover!Yes it would be the same
Had to pick " I Don't Know". Lets see what happens in the January transfer window. I feel this is our best chance to get back to the PL and im hoping Joy puts her hands in her pockets for a couple of new signings.
| accounts | SISU Funds | SISU Funds | ||
| year | Player sales | Player purchases | in | out |
2018 | 979,230 | 109,514 | 500,000 | 254,759 |
2019 | 4,411,340 | 706,379 | 1,731,354 | |
2020 | 4,269,512 | 1,119,427 | 1,635,397 | 125,112 |
| Total | 9,660,082 | 1,935,320 | 2,135,397 | 2,111,225 |
It's amazing that joy has turned opinion on its head and if reflects all fans overall a 64% approval rating is I guess allowing boddy and robins freedoms to do there jobs.
I wonder if this would be the same result for a SISU poll?
That's interesting that you think 4good years on the pitch with small budgets has turned opinion on its head,and that's your opinion Grendel?Yes it would be the same
That sums up what I feel re joy/sisu it's great when it's working but a season or 2 the other way opinion would swing the other way.isnt the question really how would everyone feel about SISU if we were losing, at the wrong end of the table in danger of relegation?
IF SISU really are a good or right fit for the club then it shouldn't matter should it - but we all know it would
A number of posters seem to equate the team doing better with SISU having a change of heart and having backed MR with funds. I do not see it myself, I firmly believe that SISU do just enough for the club to meet it bills. Over a number of years accounts, that we know of, then the amount of investment by SISU is pretty much neutral, the squads have been put together based on player trading and the coaching skills of MR & backroom staff. That is not to say that SISU have not backed MR passively by simply letting him do his job, and a very good job at that - it is of course important to have that backing. But that over the years we can look at is about it.
MR started at CCFC March 2017 - bit unfair to allocate much to him in the year to 31/05/2017 good or bad.
but since then we have the following during the MR tenure
accounts SISU Funds SISU Funds year Player sales Player purchases in out 979,230 109,514 500,000 254,759 4,411,340 706,379 1,731,354 4,269,512 1,119,427 1,635,397 125,112 Total 9,660,082 1,935,320 2,135,397 2,111,225
a net investment by SISU in those three years of £24,172
We haven't seen the 2021 figures yet and wont until February next year. The figures to 31/05/22 a year after that. We already know the club will show an EFL loan of £3.7m less annual repayments in the 2021 accounts so debt will increase and the repayments on that loan eat in to cashflow. Costs in the Championship are higher and this year (2022 accounts) will show higher income because of the crowd size.
SISU have steadied the ship so I don't see any reason why they would change the way they operate because by doing that they have also achieved through MR & the team plus staff great success
Do I want SISU here? Head says that they have done a decent job of running a business to hold its own in broad terms. Still not profitable because it cant pay the interest burden annually - a burden that grows the debt significantly each year. Is just holding its own and deferring large interest payments increasing debt good enough?
My heart says I simply can not forgive the damage SISU and others have done to CCFC. But you have to remember the past not hang on to it but grab the future. Hard to get trust back once lost and I do not trust SISU with our club
Overall at the moment I am neither for nor against. When they bought in i said "be careful what you wish for" that still holds for any potential new owners should that ever happen
Those saying back MR with funds in January
- that adds to the large debt burden we already have
- that adds even more interest to the annual losses
- the resurgence of Covid makes it even less likely
- it is simply not how SISU can be demonstrated to operate
- So far MR has done a very good job with the set up he has, trust him to continue that
- Boddy told you the ambition for this season - to consolidate in the Championship and continue to build, I don't think that's changed
- building for CCFC in the present set up means player trading and always has probably always will - who that is valuable do we want to lose and gamble on their replacement?
Final thoughts if SISU do have funds available, do they spend gambling in January or hold back till the summer when MR will need to do substantial rebuilding. Do the owners want to be promoted yet? going to need huge investment if we go up have they got that sort of backing? or do they milk the club for investment return and sell at some point a club with Premier League potential?. Even if they started trying to sell now it might not happen or might take well in to next season to achieve could SISU fund Premier League costs and player purchases in the meantime? Promotion too early without access to funds could be a disaster & dent their investment values.
Keep in mind SISU are driven by their investments not by the football
Just enjoy the football and trust MR - SISU are largely irrelevant in that and we certainly can not influence what they choose to do
PUSB's
When we talk of potential newcomers and the inherent risk in that it's worth remembering the structure in place seriously deters the likelihood of it.I think a fair chunk of those voting ‘Go’ do so OSB not just because of past wrongdoings but because of the points made in that second half. We are in a league and in general a footballing system that doesn’t reward a break even strategy, where other teams can and do reassess their objectives during a season and aren’t afraid to boost a manager’s funds mid season. Promotion would bring such a windfall I doubt the investors would need to provide anything else-it could be used to radically transform the club at no net cost.
How we perform is heavily dependent on the manager’s ability to pull rabbits out of hats. The time will come when he fails and we disappear from this league sharpish. It seems to me that the owners are not fit for the division we are trying to establish ourselves in and while we should rightly be wary of new faces, we know plenty about the current ones to see how the future will likely unfold. There isn’t another owner in this league whacking exorbitant interest on the funds provided and thus ensuring the club has little hope of ever paying off its debt.
When we talk of potential newcomers and the inherent risk in that it's worth remembering the structure in place seriously deters the likelihood of it.
Are there any owners that put the club first over themselves and investors? Football is a business after allI voted go because I don't like owners whose first priority is to themselves and their investors, rather than to the club.
Are there any owners that put the club first over themselves and investors? Football is a business after all
Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk
Are there any owners that put the club first over themselves and investors? Football is a business after all
Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk
I think a fair chunk of those voting ‘Go’ do so OSB not just because of past wrongdoings but because of the points made in that second half. We are in a league and in general a footballing system that doesn’t reward a break even strategy, where other teams can and do reassess their objectives during a season and aren’t afraid to boost a manager’s funds mid season. Promotion would bring such a windfall I doubt the investors would need to provide anything else-it could be used to radically transform the club at no net cost.
How we perform is heavily dependent on the manager’s ability to pull rabbits out of hats. The time will come when he fails and we disappear from this league sharpish. It seems to me that the owners are not fit for the division we are trying to establish ourselves in and while we should rightly be wary of new faces, we know plenty about the current ones to see how the future will likely unfold. There isn’t another owner in this league whacking exorbitant interest on the funds provided and thus ensuring the club has little hope of ever paying off its debt.
Whilst i accept the points you are making in some ways, just how much do people think spent would make the difference and get us promoted for certain? £1m, £2m £5m ? Ask any manager and they will tell you that getting the right player who will make an immediate difference in the January transfer window is usually expensive and difficult many don't work or take months to.
Indeed the only thing harder is getting new owners in that are prepared to care for the club and invest without causing damage
I suspect that SISU do not have access to millions to invest in CCFC for sustained and repeated promotion pushes
Not sure about when the income flows from a promotion hit. Obviously improved gates and corporate/merchandising, also i assume several million in prize money from the EFL. But the rest is loaded on the end of the season isnt it? Who finances the cashflow of hugely more expensive players and players wages till then? That's partly why i asked do the owners actually want promotion this season. It isnt just about the spending in January. It isnt just about throwing money now, it also has to factor in the add ons, the risk of failure, the future, and for our owners the needs of the present investors
If they do invest and we dont get promoted then what. Do it all again next season ? with no guarantee then either
So SISU find £2m and make it available to MR.
Thats £2m added to the debt which means the club will owe over £20m in interest & capital (including EFL loan) with only short term assets against it (the squad)
£2m at 11% interest means losses increased annual losses by £220k in the first year and unless repaid compounding upwards every year after further increasing debt
Whether it be 1 or 3 players that is increased wage costs when i suspect we are close to maximum on our internal budget. Yes there arte players we would like to move on but they are not moving. Who pays the extra wages? this year and next etc
Great if we get promoted but what if we dont - which realistically is more likely
Then we get promoted - the present squad isnt anywhere close to being good enough to compete in the Premier League, need a largely new team which means buying in and expensive wages who pays for that?
not sure the cost of "£2m" is actually £2m based on that it seems much more
Yes i am being a typical risk averse accountant, would love to see us promoted though. But what irritates is "if the owners would throw some money at it" Derby threw lots of money at it as did others ......
I think there is a disconnect between fan expectations (immediate gratification) and the longer plan of the owners (calculated investors) Don't think that's going to be solved with SISU but that's who we have. Would new owners be different, perhaps but maybe not
No it isnt fair or right that we have to play by different rules than the other Championship Clubs but thats just how it is. Is it right that those other clubs risk their future on a dream by spending money they can not afford - absolutely not but it is their choice. Generally there are two teams most likely to get promoted and one place left for 22 other teams - but even that is skewed by the parachute payments. Do all owners in the division throw money at it every year? Because of our financial and capital base we have to be prudent with the money simply to survive - were we to get to not paying the bills then it could easily all fall apart
There are btw a number of clubs that pay over £1.5m even £2.5m per year in interest. not as much as us i accept. Didnt check properly but it is being paid out i think rather than rolled up
Part of the reason money is tight is the EFL loan of £3.2m being repaid over 3 years btw.
I am sure MR would love to get us in the Premier League, but i think he is pragmatic enough and realistic to know our squad is thin in good enough players and numbers to get there even with bringing in 2 or 3 players
No doubt having said all that we will sign someone for £1m in January
Great post.A number of posters seem to equate the team doing better with SISU having a change of heart and having backed MR with funds. I do not see it myself, I firmly believe that SISU do just enough for the club to meet it bills. Over a number of years accounts, that we know of, then the amount of investment by SISU is pretty much neutral, the squads have been put together based on player trading and the coaching skills of MR & backroom staff. That is not to say that SISU have not backed MR passively by simply letting him do his job, and a very good job at that - it is of course important to have that backing. But that over the years we can look at is about it.
MR started at CCFC March 2017 - bit unfair to allocate much to him in the year to 31/05/2017 good or bad.
but since then we have the following during the MR tenure
accounts SISU Funds SISU Funds year Player sales Player purchases in out 979,230 109,514 500,000 254,759 4,411,340 706,379 1,731,354 4,269,512 1,119,427 1,635,397 125,112 Total 9,660,082 1,935,320 2,135,397 2,111,225
a net investment by SISU in those three years of £24,172
We haven't seen the 2021 figures yet and wont until February next year. The figures to 31/05/22 a year after that. We already know the club will show an EFL loan of £3.7m less annual repayments in the 2021 accounts so debt will increase and the repayments on that loan eat in to cashflow. Costs in the Championship are higher and this year (2022 accounts) will show higher income because of the crowd size.
SISU have steadied the ship so I don't see any reason why they would change the way they operate because by doing that they have also achieved through MR & the team plus staff great success
Do I want SISU here? Head says that they have done a decent job of running a business to hold its own in broad terms. Still not profitable because it cant pay the interest burden annually - a burden that grows the debt significantly each year. Is just holding its own and deferring large interest payments increasing debt good enough?
My heart says I simply can not forgive the damage SISU and others have done to CCFC. But you have to remember the past not hang on to it but grab the future. Hard to get trust back once lost and I do not trust SISU with our club
Overall at the moment I am neither for nor against. When they bought in i said "be careful what you wish for" that still holds for any potential new owners should that ever happen
Those saying back MR with funds in January
- that adds to the large debt burden we already have
- that adds even more interest to the annual losses
- the resurgence of Covid makes it even less likely
- it is simply not how SISU can be demonstrated to operate
- So far MR has done a very good job with the set up he has, trust him to continue that
- Boddy told you the ambition for this season - to consolidate in the Championship and continue to build, I don't think that's changed
- building for CCFC in the present set up means player trading and always has probably always will - who that is valuable do we want to lose and gamble on their replacement?
Final thoughts if SISU do have funds available, do they spend gambling in January or hold back till the summer when MR will need to do substantial rebuilding. Do the owners want to be promoted yet? going to need huge investment if we go up have they got that sort of backing? or do they milk the club for investment return and sell at some point a club with Premier League potential?. Even if they started trying to sell now it might not happen or might take well in to next season to achieve could SISU fund Premier League costs and player purchases in the meantime? Promotion too early without access to funds could be a disaster & dent their investment values.
Keep in mind SISU are driven by their investments not by the football
Just enjoy the football and trust MR - SISU are largely irrelevant in that and we certainly can not influence what they choose to do
PUSB's
So you're a City fan now Wasps are shite? I see you use the collective term 'we', 'we' all didn't all start supporting another club, did 'we'?A number of posters seem to equate the team doing better with SISU having a change of heart and having backed MR with funds. I do not see it myself, I firmly believe that SISU do just enough for the club to meet it bills. Over a number of years accounts, that we know of, then the amount of investment by SISU is pretty much neutral, the squads have been put together based on player trading and the coaching skills of MR & backroom staff. That is not to say that SISU have not backed MR passively by simply letting him do his job, and a very good job at that - it is of course important to have that backing. But that over the years we can look at is about it.
MR started at CCFC March 2017 - bit unfair to allocate much to him in the year to 31/05/2017 good or bad.
but since then we have the following during the MR tenure
accounts SISU Funds SISU Funds year Player sales Player purchases in out 979,230 109,514 500,000 254,759 4,411,340 706,379 1,731,354 4,269,512 1,119,427 1,635,397 125,112 Total 9,660,082 1,935,320 2,135,397 2,111,225
a net investment by SISU in those three years of £24,172
We haven't seen the 2021 figures yet and wont until February next year. The figures to 31/05/22 a year after that. We already know the club will show an EFL loan of £3.7m less annual repayments in the 2021 accounts so debt will increase and the repayments on that loan eat in to cashflow. Costs in the Championship are higher and this year (2022 accounts) will show higher income because of the crowd size.
SISU have steadied the ship so I don't see any reason why they would change the way they operate because by doing that they have also achieved through MR & the team plus staff great success
Do I want SISU here? Head says that they have done a decent job of running a business to hold its own in broad terms. Still not profitable because it cant pay the interest burden annually - a burden that grows the debt significantly each year. Is just holding its own and deferring large interest payments increasing debt good enough?
My heart says I simply can not forgive the damage SISU and others have done to CCFC. But you have to remember the past not hang on to it but grab the future. Hard to get trust back once lost and I do not trust SISU with our club
Overall at the moment I am neither for nor against. When they bought in i said "be careful what you wish for" that still holds for any potential new owners should that ever happen
Those saying back MR with funds in January
- that adds to the large debt burden we already have
- that adds even more interest to the annual losses
- the resurgence of Covid makes it even less likely
- it is simply not how SISU can be demonstrated to operate
- So far MR has done a very good job with the set up he has, trust him to continue that
- Boddy told you the ambition for this season - to consolidate in the Championship and continue to build, I don't think that's changed
- building for CCFC in the present set up means player trading and always has probably always will - who that is valuable do we want to lose and gamble on their replacement?
Final thoughts if SISU do have funds available, do they spend gambling in January or hold back till the summer when MR will need to do substantial rebuilding. Do the owners want to be promoted yet? going to need huge investment if we go up have they got that sort of backing? or do they milk the club for investment return and sell at some point a club with Premier League potential?. Even if they started trying to sell now it might not happen or might take well in to next season to achieve could SISU fund Premier League costs and player purchases in the meantime? Promotion too early without access to funds could be a disaster & dent their investment values.
Keep in mind SISU are driven by their investments not by the football
Just enjoy the football and trust MR - SISU are largely irrelevant in that and we certainly can not influence what they choose to do
PUSB's
I didn't write with the expectation of promotion charges being funded every year or millions extra being chucked in. At the same time, we seem to have gone too far the other way with the result that the footballing side is walking a fine line. Like we've seen this season any time we aren't 'on it' or Robins makes a mistake we get punished pretty ruthlessly. I'm arguing that this is essentially just as high risk as not whacking high interest loans on the club to curtail its spending power.
The point on cashflow is fair although surely a fair amount is paid at the beginning of the season? I assumed that PL clubs got a big payment at the start then got extra for each televised game along with a league position bonus at the end.
I think the bigger risk is that with above budget crowds the owners decide to extract some return that squeezes the budget. Couple that with an increase in budget is only possible with the sale of our better players. That could make things difficult next season
I think the squad we have is perfectly capable of maintaining Championship status without a miracle from MR. What is at odds is the fans expectation fuelled by results so far compared with the owners expectation. The fans are excited, rightly so, and their expectations have probably gone over what is possible for a full season from the squad and means we have. The owners set up to maintain status in this division, boddy repeatedly has made the point as to this seasons target. So far the team exceeds their expectations.
I just dont expect sisu to change their strategy and that means the only major funds come from player sales as it has for years. The owners have proven inflexible on all manner of things this is no different.
Yes it could all go wrong but we need 16 or 17 points to be safe in half a season. Things get tougher I think when we start again in the summer next year. Will be no surprises for the opposition next season to enable a very good start.
Yes they could invest more, but that has some big financial costs. Just don't think on past evidence they will, and from what MR has said he has been told they won't.
Is there a risk of it going all wrong Yes, but really it's the same risk if they invest more but then they would be deeper in the hole. The likelihood of promotion who knows but can't help thinking it isnt great even with 2 or 3 new players. But who knows it could happen
On balance if they are going to invest more I would rather them do it in the summer so that next seasons squad continues building that season and following in the championship
Can I change my vote? Now we’ve signed up Jamie Allen I can see we have premier league in our sights
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