Sheaf and Hamer (1 Viewer)

cc84cov · Oct 29, 2020

Marosi
Dabo osti mcfadz hyam giles
Sheaf Kelly Hamer
Walker Godden

O’Hare,Shipley,Allen,McCallum,Biamou - subs

I don’t see this happening tho Allen will probably keep his place & we will prob persist with the current system attempting to Nick a 1-0 against highflying reading.

Brighton Sky Blue · Oct 29, 2020

cc84cov said:
Marosi
Dabo osti mcfadz hyam giles
Sheaf Kelly Hamer
Walker Godden

O’Hare,Shipley,Allen,McCallum,Biamou - subs

I don’t see this happening tho Allen will probably keep his place & we will prob persist with the current system attempting to Nick a 1-0 against highflying reading.

We have 2 more spaces on the bench fella but yeah would like to see that line up

ccfc1234 · Oct 30, 2020

Frostie said:
Utter poppycock.

Sheaf's pass completion for the Blackburn & Middlesbrough games were 86% & 73% respectively.
Kelly & Hamer who you've touted as doing better... 73% & 59% respectively.

Hamer's passing accuracy is 68% for the season, Sheaf's is 82%.
I don't know where the narrative has come from that Sheaf is poor in possession & Hamer is the Messiah but it's nonsense.

I agree with you on the options in front of them though.
We need to get the wing-backs involved higher up, the supply into the Striker has to be better & the 2 AM's need to do a lot more.

We are a victim of circumstance to a degree; Dabo has missed games so either a CB or a left footer at RWB immediately unbalances us, Sheaf, Kelly & Hamer have never all been available at the same time (until now), Walker missing games + general quality of opponents back to back has been tough.

We might finally be turning the corner on this if Dabo & Walker are fit.

If we're to play a counter attack style in some games then, as much as I like Godden, Walker could do that role better.

The type of pass makes a difference. Not all passes are equal, there are killer passes and at the other end of the spectrum safe sideways passes. Great stats however, can you link to where they are published. Thanks

Fergusons_Beard · Oct 30, 2020

Frostie said:
Not the readily available free ones - Clubs & pro scouts use Wyscout, Instat or 7Scout mostly; Opta are widely used for stats...

View attachment 17363

Actually they mainly get it from 1 source-a spotter at the ground who tallies up all the stats as the game progresses.

But again you’ve only used stats to prove my point because according to those pass completion stats Sheaf is much better that Hamer and Kelly.

What we need are the ‘Forward Passing Accuracy’ stats and not the ‘Passing Completion’ ones.

This shows the quality and confidence in building attacks via passing, rather than just passing for the sake of keeping possession.

Just proves that an over reliance on 1 stat is not enough to show how well a player has performed and that perception while watching a game live will be different for each individual (as proven on here while discussing the merits of Sheaf!).

What I would say is-read this article on using stats to judge EFL L1 midfielders.

It says more on why City got Sheaf and why they’ll keep playing him.

https://totalfootballanalysis.com/article/data-analysis-finding-best-central-midfielders-league-one

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Frostie · Oct 30, 2020

Fergusons_Beard said:
Actually they mainly get it from 1 source-a spotter at the ground who tallies up all the stats as the game progresses.

But again you’ve only used stats to prove my point because according to those pass completion stats Sheaf is much better that Hamer and Kelly.

What we need are the ‘Forward Passing Accuracy’ stats and not the ‘Passing Completion’ ones.

This shows the quality and confidence in building attacks via passing, rather than just passing for the sake of keeping possession.

Just proves that an over reliance on 1 stat is not enough to show how well a player has performed and that perception while watching a game live will be different for each individual (as proven on here while discussing the merits of Sheaf!).

What I would say is-read this article on using stats to judge EFL L1 midfielders.

It says more on why City got Sheaf and why they’ll keep playing him.

Data Analysis: Finding the best central midfielders in League One

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Years ago they relied on spotters, not anymore. With data analytics becoming more important & signing players from all around the world, using a spotter isn't usually practical. That's not to say they don't still use them, of course they do but it's not the primary method.

I used the stats that proved your argument was utter fiction that Sheaf "gave the ball away 80% of the time" - it's completely false - in terms of ball retention, despite the odd mistake, he's our most efficient player.

You've changed the argument now to forward passes but to answer your question, Hamer does slightly more, as we'd expect.
He also attempts a lot of long passes but the accuracy is poor.

Sheaf's defensive contributions are better as you'd expect but we're straying from the point - it's pointless comparing the 2 players - they have different skillsets & have been signed to compliment one another not rival.
I was just merely disproving the myth that Hamer's pass completion was somehow better than Sheaf's.

I know exactly why we signed Sheaf, he's the very definition of a deep lying playmaker, solid defensively & looking to get on the ball & play progressive passes. He was pretty much the standout in these areas in League 1:

Ben Sheaf Scout Report At Doncaster Rovers 2019/2020

Ben Sheaf Scouting Report At Doncaster Rovers 2019/2020

totalfootballanalysis.com

lordy_87 · Oct 30, 2020

Jesus... all I read about on this site are bloody stats. They do not tell the whole story.

GaryMabbuttsLeftKnee · Oct 30, 2020

lordy_87 said:
Jesus... all I read about on this site are bloody stats. They do not tell the whole story.

I agree they don't, but someone has remarkably claimed they watched it back and saw Sheaf give the ball away 80% of the time he had it, so I am enjoying that Trump-esque bollocks being ruined to be fair.

Frostie · Oct 30, 2020

GaryMabbuttsLeftKnee said:
I agree they don't, but someone has remarkably claimed they watched it back and saw Sheaf give the ball away 80% of the time he had it, so I am enjoying that Trump-esque bollocks being ruined to be fair.

Exactly.

Fergusons_Beard · Oct 30, 2020

Frostie said:
You've changed the argument now to forward passes but to answer your question, Hamer does slightly more, as we'd expect.
He also attempts a lot of long passes but the accuracy is poor.

I haven’t changed any argument-what I actually said was ‘Completed forward passes’ as a percentage was a more accurate way of measuring a midfielders performance than ‘Completed passes’.

You haven’t provided that data (all you’ve done is provided the data for attempts).

Also you didn’t answer my observation that according to your provided Statistics, Sheaf has been our best midfielder, when it’s patently obvious that his performances overall don’t reflect this.

Unless of course you do thing he is.

For what it’s worth and repeating what I’ve been saying-Sheaf is a decent player-just gives the ball away too often.

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Frostie · Oct 30, 2020

As your argument changes with each post I'll answer to each of your individual points...

Fergusons_Beard said:
I haven’t changed any argument-what I actually said was ‘Completed forward passes’ as a percentage was a more accurate way of measuring a midfielders performance than ‘Completed passes’.

You haven’t provided that data (all you’ve done is provided the data for attempts).
That is completed passes, not attempts

Also you didn’t answer my observation that according to your provided Statistics, Sheaf has been our best midfielder, when it’s patently obvious that his performances overall don’t reflect this.

Unless of course you do thing he is.
I don't think he's been brilliant but is consistently our most effective midfielder yes.
I think he, Kelly & Hamer could all be capable at this level but need better options to pass to.

Who do you think has been our best midfielder?

For what it’s worth and repeating what I’ve been saying-Sheaf is a decent player-just gives the ball away too often.
Agreed. But not 80% of the time or anywhere near as much as anyone else in the team like you said.

Fergusons_Beard · Oct 30, 2020

Sorry you would need Completed forward passes as a percentage of the total.

Only time will tell how effective he is compared to Hamer, Kelly and the rest of the midfield.

At the moment it is a matter of opinion-I am glad that you are convinced already-I am not.

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Jamesimus · Oct 30, 2020

Fergusons_Beard said:
Sorry you would need Completed forward passes as a percentage of the total.

Only time will tell how effective he is compared to Hamer, Kelly and the rest of the midfield.

At the moment it is a matter of opinion-I am glad that you are convinced already-I am not.

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You can work that out from the last bunch of stats Frostie gave you...

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Oct 30, 2020

cc84cov said:
McCallums fans have been quiet past couple of games after a couple of ok ish performances ok the whole teams not been great but a lot now see Giles as one of if not our best outlet

McCallum has been playing on the 'wrong' side. Had they switched and had Giles on the right, McCallum on the left it's highly likely McCallum would've outperformed Giles.

Giles may well provide an outlet but at the same time he's also someone the opposition look to exploit because he plays higher up and leaves the space. So you've got to balance whether the outlet he provides against the opportunities he gives the opposition. If he gets forward and creates three chances and we score one great. But if by doing that the opposition create 5 and score 2 we're losing out. Meanwhile a more defensive showing creates maybe one chance and no goals but also results in none being conceded it's a better outcome overall.

At the moment we're spending much more time without the ball and required to defend so you could argue we need to play the wingbacks with this is mind and say defensive qualities are slightly more important than attacking ones, esp away from home.

The fact Giles is seen as one of our biggest outlets says more about how our ACM's and attackers aren't creating enough and we need more from them in terms of quality.

cc84cov · Oct 30, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
McCallum has been playing on the 'wrong' side. Had they switched and had Giles on the right, McCallum on the left it's highly likely McCallum would've outperformed Giles.

Giles may well provide an outlet but at the same time he's also someone the opposition look to exploit because he plays higher up and leaves the space. So you've got to balance whether the outlet he provides against the opportunities he gives the opposition. If he gets forward and creates three chances and we score one great. But if by doing that the opposition create 5 and score 2 we're losing out. Meanwhile a more defensive showing creates maybe one chance and no goals but also results in none being conceded it's a better outcome overall.

At the moment we're spending much more time without the ball and required to defend so you could argue we need to play the wingbacks with this is mind and say defensive qualities are slightly more important than attacking ones, esp away from home.

The fact Giles is seen as one of our biggest outlets says more about how our ACM's and attackers aren't creating enough and we need more from them in terms of quality.

Allen wouldn’t be anywhere near my 11 at this level decent league 1 player impact sub same as Shipley,O’Hare has gone from Impact league 1 sub to starter a level above...we need more

Sky Blue Pete · Oct 30, 2020

Giles will progress but I’m happy playing McCallum ahead of him

Brighton Sky Blue · Oct 30, 2020

cc84cov said:
Allen wouldn’t be anywhere near my 11 at this level decent league 1 player impact sub same as Shipley,O’Hare has gone from Impact league 1 sub to starter a level above...we need more

We don’t have more so need instead to improve what we’ve got

fernandopartridge · Oct 30, 2020

Fergusons_Beard said:
I haven’t changed any argument-what I actually said was ‘Completed forward passes’ as a percentage was a more accurate way of measuring a midfielders performance than ‘Completed passes’.

You haven’t provided that data (all you’ve done is provided the data for attempts).

Also you didn’t answer my observation that according to your provided Statistics, Sheaf has been our best midfielder, when it’s patently obvious that his performances overall don’t reflect this.

Unless of course you do thing he is.

For what it’s worth and repeating what I’ve been saying-Sheaf is a decent player-just gives the ball away too often.

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He's been our best player in the last few games

shmmeee · Oct 30, 2020

I was an early Sheaf critic but he’s improved so much the last couple of games. One of our best players.

Esoterica · Oct 30, 2020

Honestly amazes me how people can watch football all their lives and still have such a myopic view of what is happening on the pitch. Only seeing the moment and not all the peripheral influencing factors. I guess that is why the game sparks such passion and debate.

SBAndy · Oct 30, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
McCallum has been playing on the 'wrong' side. Had they switched and had Giles on the right, McCallum on the left it's highly likely McCallum would've outperformed Giles.

Giles may well provide an outlet but at the same time he's also someone the opposition look to exploit because he plays higher up and leaves the space. So you've got to balance whether the outlet he provides against the opportunities he gives the opposition. If he gets forward and creates three chances and we score one great. But if by doing that the opposition create 5 and score 2 we're losing out. Meanwhile a more defensive showing creates maybe one chance and no goals but also results in none being conceded it's a better outcome overall.

At the moment we're spending much more time without the ball and required to defend so you could argue we need to play the wingbacks with this is mind and say defensive qualities are slightly more important than attacking ones, esp away from home.

The fact Giles is seen as one of our biggest outlets says more about how our ACM's and attackers aren't creating enough and we need more from them in terms of quality.

Bit of a chicken and egg situation as part of the reason we’re without the ball for long periods is we don’t have an attacking structure capable of keeping the ball up the other end. I’ve said a few times about the need to get the wing backs higher up and leave the wide centre backs to defend the wide areas, as we were last season.

shmmeee said:
I was an early Sheaf critic but he’s improved so much the last couple of games. One of our best players.

Absolutely. The confirmation bias is due to him giving the ball away constantly in his first 2 games. Since then, barely noticed him giving the ball away.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Oct 30, 2020

SBAndy said:
Bit of a chicken and egg situation as part of the reason we’re without the ball for long periods is we don’t have an attacking structure capable of keeping the ball up the other end. I’ve said a few times about the need to get the wing backs higher up and leave the wide centre backs to defend the wide areas, as we were last season.

I tend to agree with that but like I say McCallum isn't completely incapable of attacking to the extent Mason wasn't. He can get forward. He just also has better defensive awareness.

As others have said a lack of pace in the forwards allows opponents to defend high, allowing a higher press and less space to play the passing game we had last season. To create that space we need a quick option to make their defence drop back ten yards to defend against it. Of our forward line Baka would appear to fit the description best but MR refuses to use in this manner because he's 6'4'' so seems to believe that's a guy you pump it in the air too and compete physically. Maybe Walker has more speed than I'm giving him credit for but he doesn't come across as massively quick.

At ACM with Jones out you may be looking at someone like Bapaga but I don't think he's ready yet for anything more than short cameo's. We aren't blessed with a great deal of pace in that respect. We seem to have plenty of options, but lacking in quality.

SBAndy · Oct 30, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
I tend to agree with that but like I say McCallum isn't completely incapable of attacking to the extent Mason wasn't. He can get forward. He just also has better defensive awareness.

As others have said a lack of pace in the forwards allows opponents to defend high, allowing a higher press and less space to play the passing game we had last season. To create that space we need a quick option to make their defence drop back ten yards to defend against it. Of our forward line Baka would appear to fit the description best but MR refuses to use in this manner because he's 6'4'' so seems to believe that's a guy you pump it in the air too and compete physically. Maybe Walker has more speed than I'm giving him credit for but he doesn't come across as massively quick.

At ACM with Jones out you may be looking at someone like Bapaga but I don't think he's ready yet for anything more than short cameo's. We aren't blessed with a great deal of pace in that respect. We seem to have plenty of options, but lacking in quality.

I also want to see Walker brought in for Godden up top. Not got the impression he’s rapid but quick enough and certainly quicker than Godden. This would be my final attempt at making the current system work before we start thinking of alternatives.

SeaSeeEffCee · Oct 30, 2020

People make their minds up about players within 2 games. Everyone had decided Hamer was class instantly and decided Sheaf was shite instantly. People still bemoan Bakayoko for being constantly offside based off one game at Blackpool two years ago despite Godden being much worse for staying onside.

fernandopartridge · Oct 30, 2020

Esoterica said:
Honestly amazes me how people can watch football all their lives and still have such a myopic view of what is happening on the pitch. Only seeing the moment and not all the peripheral influencing factors. I guess that is why the game sparks such passion and debate.

When the highest level you've played at is the school playground you tend to think like that

Liquid Gold · Oct 30, 2020

I think Sheaf is going to end up the sort of player that everyone forgets they called him shit and say they always rated him. Complete quality and composure.

fernandopartridge · Oct 30, 2020

Liquid Gold said:
I think Sheaf is going to end up the sort of player that everyone forgets they called him shit and say they always rated him. Complete quality and composure.

And defensively very very good as well

Fergusons_Beard · Oct 31, 2020

Liquid Gold said:
I think Sheaf is going to end up the sort of player that everyone forgets they called him shit and say they always rated him. Complete quality and composure.

And forget about giving the ball away for the equaliser.

Seem to work both ways the rose tinted glasses...

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Frostie · Oct 31, 2020

Fergusons_Beard said:
And forget about giving the ball away for the equaliser.

Seem to work both ways the rose tinted glasses...

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Gave the ball away halfway inside our half trying to play into the feet of the striker who misread it - was still an awful lot to do for Joao to score. Defence blameless for letting him shoot?

Dabo & others gave it away in much more dangerous areas at other times but just got lucky.

You must agree that Sheaf was one of the best players on the pitch tonight?

Warwickhunt · Oct 31, 2020

Magwitch said:
Don’t care what anyone says we don’t lose many with Shipley in the team, how many have we lost this season once he’s gone off ? he might not be Iniesta or Xavi but he does a job.

just wish he had a bit more pace!

johnwillomagic · Oct 31, 2020

McCallum cut in shot and scored ...Giles cut in and sent the ball into the Ricoh Arena....I like them both but if had to pick one would be McCallum every time lucky to have them both mind and very happy that we do!

Frostie · Oct 31, 2020

johnwillomagic said:
McCallum cut in shot and scored ...Giles cut in and sent the ball into the Ricoh Arena....I like them both but if had to pick one would be McCallum every time lucky to have them both mind and very happy that we do!

Difference being Giles cut in onto his right (weaker) foot, McCallum cut in onto his left (stronger) foot.
I'm convinced Reading forgot he was left footed, they actually encouraged him onto that side!

fernandopartridge · Oct 31, 2020

Frostie said:
Difference being Giles cut in onto his right (weaker) foot, McCallum cut in onto his left (stronger) foot.
I'm convinced Reading forgot he was left footed, they actually encouraged him onto that side!

Most definitely

johnwillomagic · Oct 31, 2020

Yep Reading definitely forgot that never mind eh!

TomRad85 · Oct 31, 2020

Sheaf gets better every game, you can see his quality. The treatment of him by some of our fan base is embarrassing. We have far worse players than Ben Sheaf in our squad.

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djr8369 · Oct 31, 2020

Yorkshire SB said:
Personally don’t think these two are a problem area, and within time will be heralded as a point of strength.
Our team lacks balance, too many chiefs not enough Indians - we’ve got ball playing defenders, midfielders, but not enough people prepared to make that run, stretch the defence, the dirty and hard side of the game.
Sheaf had a tremendous 15/20 against Boro in the second half on Tuesday, and when he lifts his head there’s nothing there. Same for Hamer.

They are about our two most talented players. I don’t know where the doubt otherwise is coming from. They’re just learning the league a bit.

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