SISU and the problems (1 Viewer)

[Astute]

There has been so much debate on what is wrong with our club. I agree that things are not perfect, but so much is better now than when they took over. They will never be able to make everyone happy. If they spend money we do not have then we will be back to where we were before they took over. We would not be happy. They are running the club within their means. Many are not happy.

If you were SISU and took a club over that was on it's knees and close to going out of business as we knew it, what would you have done differently? Would you have tried to balance the books or would you gamble on success like Fester and Cardiff? Would it end like Forest where they gambled but failed and now have tightened their belts? Would you have gone for youth like they have? Would you have gone for quality like they have or quantity remembering if you are trying to live within your means? Where do you think they have gone wrong?

Last of all, let's keep it friendly. We are all after the same. Success and a long future for our club.

 

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[Macca]

There has been so much debate on what is wrong with our club. I agree that things are not perfect, but so much is better now than when they took over. They will never be able to make everyone happy. If they spend money we do not have then we will be back to where we were before they took over. We would not be happy. They are running the club within their means. Many are not happy.

If you were SISU and took a club over that was on it's knees and close to going out of business as we knew it, what would you have done differently? Would you have tried to balance the books or would you gamble on success like Fester and Cardiff? Would it end like Forest where they gambled but failed and now have tightened their belts? Would you have gone for youth like they have? Would you have gone for quality like they have or quantity remembering if you are trying to live within your means? Where do you think they have gone wrong?

Last of all, let's keep it friendly. We are all after the same. Success and a long future for our club.

Wouldn't have done anything different except from try and build better relationship with fans

 

[singers_pore]

Two points:

First, if I wanted to make money, I would never invest in any football club.

Second, following on from the first point, I would only invest in CCFC because of the love that's there, not for financial reasons. And, upon making the investment, I would have a clear strategy which would involve the following:
Major investments in good young players
Long-term contracts and extended contracts for players who do well.

In the short term, this strategy would obviously be costly, maybe 30m. But in the medium to longer term, I think the club could become sustainable at the break even point in the lower reaches of the premiership.

As for SISU - I really don't see that they have any kind of feasible strategy at all. They are destined to lose money on this investment, in the short term, the medium term, and the long term (assuming they stick with us for that long). It is simply impossible for the club to break even while remaining in this league and not owning its own stadium. Something has to give and I think it will be relegation unless AT can perform a minor miracle.

 

[Godiva]

Two points:

First, if I wanted to make money, I would never invest in any football club.

Second, following on from the first point, I would only invest in CCFC because of the love that's there, not for financial reasons. And, upon making the investment, I would have a clear strategy which would involve the following:
Major investments in good young players
Long-term contracts and extended contracts for players who do well.

In the short term, this strategy would obviously be costly, maybe 30m. But in the medium to longer term, I think the club could become sustainable at the break even point in the lower reaches of the premiership.

As for SISU - I really don't see that they have any kind of feasible strategy at all. They are destined to lose money on this investment, in the short term, the medium term, and the long term (assuming they stick with us for that long). It is simply impossible for the club to break even while remaining in this league and not owning its own stadium. Something has to give and I think it will be relegation unless AT can perform a minor miracle.

Very interesting.
SISU have invested around £30 million as you say you would.
We have the youngest team around - what was the avg age against Derby? 22 or 23 years?
So they are actually building on young players.
The costs have come down considerably, but we still need to do some clever player trading to break even ... and will have to continue to so, because as you say, in this league we can't make a profit without the income from the stadium.

Why can't you see whats in front of you?

 

[oldskyblue58]

Just one thing that your post doesnt emphasise Astute. The implication is that what is happening with the finances and youth now is what has happened from day1 - clearly it hasnt.

Had SISU been so intent on balancing the books at the start they (a) would not have allowed RR to lose control of the finances (b) they would have gone about the process of reducing the wages and overheads from the start (c) would have got rid of high paid under performing players sooner (yes i know that takes time and willing buyers) (d) not have gambled at least some of the £12m in 2009 in supporting a flawed financial process. Dont get me wrong I think they should balance the books but SISU have taken far too long to realise it and have lost the majority of the fans in the process

I also dont think it was a policy as such to go for youth - they were left with very little other options, they had no money to spend and players had left, the youth was all that remained

Lack of proper financial control and a clear plan was the first mistake Day 1, followed by no clearly targetted funding in respect of the team (they got their sums wrong ), and last but not least not communicating properly with the fans (customers & major finance providers). Had they said in 2008 we need to sell players, cut wages & overheads for the club to survive because things are that bad, that will mean giving our youth an opportunity - then most fans would have not liked it but would have said we understand and can reluctantly support that

Just my opinion

 

[singers_pore]

Very interesting.
SISU have invested around £30 million as you say you would.
Why can't you see whats in front of you?

SISU never invested 30m in good young players. They invested much less than that in getting Westwood, Dann, Fox and Gunnar. The rest of the money was not spent on good young players but was instead used to cover ongoing operating losses.

Can you not see the difference between the strategy that I suggested and the one that SISU adopted? :thinking about:

 

[Astute]

I have to agree OSB, but how much of this was down to RR and his plans? How much did they rely on him until they saw his plans were not working? We will never know. Half of the players they have bought have been young though. As SP says, although none of them are with us now. We made a profit on them even after losing one of them for nothing.

SP, nobody said 30m was spent on players. Hardly any teams are spending anything anymore. Even Everton fans are protesting as they have spent nothing bit have sold. If AT had a few M to spend we would have a great team for the division, but then would we be living within our means? We need more income before we can spend more. If we keep playing well the fans will come back. If we do well and get in the top half of the table thousands will come back.

 

[oldskyblue58]

RR and his plans does not absolve SISU of proper financial control from day 1. They had millions of £s of other peoples money that they let someone they didnt really know or understand play with and do so without any real control. That is pretty poor practice for serious financial people dealing with other peoples money

Yes we have bought generally young players in but in at least 3 cases failed to maximise the return on the investment. not a great bit of business really. Also failed to appreciate the effect of contracts on the business - ending them, extending them, getting value from them etc. Left us vulnerable. Yes there is a Board to take the decisions but SISU had a duty to be active in safeguarding their clients funds - they havent been until recently

Hasnt all been bad - the recent tight financial control is much needed, luckily we have had some youngsters step up well to the first team, we have a manager who plays the game attractively........... some of this is more by luck than judgement though.

There is no credible alternative as it stands - and any alternative for me has to buy into the financial control established

At the moment my own feeling is that it could go up or down from here. Fingers crossed it is up.

 

[ashbyjan]

Basically OSB I agree with your assessment. The first mistake SISU made was giving RR too much control of all affairs and whilst I still believe his footballing strategy was correct he was terrible at the PR side of things and whilst communications between board and fans have never been great at City in the last 20 years they should have communicated the strategy and got fans to buy into the new vision. Secondly they have appeared to panic after only 12 months and ripped up the original plan and decided to start cost cutting and recouping money through too early player sales etc. Whether this was because of the global financial crisis, which I don't believe as we are too small a piece of their portfolio to worry too much about, but probably more to do with discovering a myriad of Richardson/Robinson skeletons in closets (due diligence not withstanding). From that point on the whole thing has been falling apart with RR pulling in one direction and SISU in another until breaking point earlier this year. The appointment of Boothroyd and the change to older players etc was a definite panic strategy by RR, but SISU cannot pile all the blame on him as they still had a voice on the board and could have vetoed any changes. The current cost cutting and promotion of youth is nothing to do with a strategy, the cost cutting seems to have been done on a come what may basis and the fact that we have a handful of decent kids to utilise is more by luck than good judgement. The lack of clarity and trust is exemplified by the fact that even though logically the operating losses on a monthly basis must have been reduced they are still allowing the £500k a month figure to be bandied around as it suits them. The only way SISU can rescue the situation is to actually explain their strategy, their plan and their vision. Most clear thinking fans accept we have to live around our means but the use of the UEFA spending rules as an excuse is pathetic and insulting to our intelligence. Just come clean and tell us what your plan is for OUR club or will it be so unacceptable to the fans that there would be real problems with fans turning their back on the club etc.
This constant remark about no credible alternative is simply not true - Hoffman was offering on the face of it a credible alternative but not one that was acceptable to SISU. Their constant mantra of looking for new investors is tiresome as in 3 years only the Cannuk has bought in and its not a situation that appears to be changing. Its frustrating that the club we love is being run by people who appear to have a strategy that is based purely on minimising their loss in the short term rather than building the club for the long term. I have no problem with them wanting to make a profit but to do that they must have a plan that involves more than simply cutting costs followed by more cutting of costs and the odd patronising message to fans. It will take more than that to turn this club round and I simply do not believe that SISU have either the will or the way to do it.

 

[Ashdown]

I keep getting asked what have SISU done wrong......???? I can tell you very easily, the three amigos, Dowie, Coleman and Boothroyd, all of which struggled in one way or another but all mainly hamstrung at different times with little player investment.
All that said though if in the summer they had backed the best manager we have had since Black with anywhere near the funds the other fools wasted, then we would have a lot more harmonious club.
In short they have pulled the plug at the wrong time and subsequently the protests have come at the wrong time.