SISU disgrace (7 Viewers)

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Apr 17, 2012

I took stats from here for the current season:

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/stats/attendance/_/league/eng.2/english-league-championship?cc=5739

It shows us averaged at 15,173 against a league average of 17,675

Looking at 2007/08 - the season of the takeover, stats are listed here:

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/stats/...year/2007/english-league-championship?cc=5739

Showing us at 19,123 against a league average of 17,172

The season before the takeover, shown here:

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/stats/...year/2006/english-league-championship?cc=5739

Showing us at 20,381 against a league average of 18,391

What I was pointing to was that looking at the season pre-take over, our gates appear to be down by 5,208, or 25.5%.

I can see that there was a drop across the league, from the season before we were taken over to the season in which we were taken over of some 6.6%, as someone was raising a point that we were taken over at a time when attendances were dropping right across the league.

However, what I have tried to explain is that looking at this year's average, there has been a slight 'bounce back' and the net effect over term from the 18,391 figure back to 17,675 meaning that the whole of the league are only down by 3.8% - whereas in real terms we are down by over 25%

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Apr 17, 2012

Godiva said:
That comparison is not very accurate from a statistical standpoint. It completely fails to take into accounts that we are just about the only team who have been in the league for the whole of the period.
And it does matter who we play.

But the most important factor is the Ricoh. When we moved here the average gate rose by more than 5.000 per home game. As the news factor wore off, the newbies stayed away.
Now we are back to the figures we had at HR - 15.000.

Some could argue that at least some of the 1.000 fans we have lost since last season are due to the campaign to stay away from home matches.
If you take 6 home games in succession starting Nov 6th the average attendants is 15.100.
Then take last 6 home matches the average is 16.400.
Is that a coincidence? Probably, but it could actually be a meassurement of the 'success' of the stay-away-campaign.
Yet, from a statistical point of view it is just as inaccurate as your calculation.

But there's always a caveat to throw away a statistical analysis if you decide to do so. Derby because they had a latent demand they couldn't accommodate in the Baseball Ground, other teams because they've either gone up or down and will have positive, or negative influences in either direction. If someone tries to make 'an' analysis, it's always easy to label it as flawed in a moving situation.

You are right on one front though - it depends who you play. This season, the league is very strong with bigger teams with healthy travelling support. West Ham, Leeds, Birmingham, Leicester, etc. If anything, our crowds should be healthier this year when compared with our HR days, due to our capability to accommodate swollen away followings. And yet the gates are still down....

Godiva · Apr 17, 2012

kduffy said:
We will be wrong though. MMM is the statistical guru - didn't you know?

It seems you're right.

sky_blue_up_north · Apr 17, 2012

TommyAtkins said:
Clearly nonsense.

Richardson and Robinson left us without a stadium, £60 million in debt and with a deficit.

SISU have reduced the debt. That might be a tiny achievement but it makes them miles better than GR and BR.

Truth is - its the fans who bleat mindless mantras about SISU that are blinded to reality.

Who cares about results in the short-term, when the very future of the club is at risk.

Totally agree about Richardson and Robinson, that is where the rot set in make no mistake about it. Yes things have got worst with SISU, but we would not have needed them if the R boys had not behaved in a totally reckless way.

Sub · Apr 17, 2012

imho its just like somebody buying a failing manufacturing business, a company you or i could work for slashing the wage bill buy a 3rd by getting rid of all the best workers and expericenced staff and then turning round and saying i know we have had to cut costs to live within our means but i expect you to work just as hard if not harder for the same money produce the same amount of work if not more and there will be no more investment in the company to do this. How do you think that would work ? the product would be worse nobody would buy it and the company would lose more money and go bust!!! So why should it be any different in football ? the thing is they (the Owners) are hoping that our faith in our home team will keep us coming back, but unfortunatly the faith has been taken to the limit and for alot of fans way beyond their limits, that is why they are losing money. They are polishing a turd and expecting the fans to keep turning up week in week out, SISU are selling a crap product the customers no longer want to see crap, thats why we are losing money and failing and possibly about to slip out of the championship !!

1nilandwe... · Apr 17, 2012

Obviously Richardson and Robinson are the original villains of this horrible saga, but SISU announced themselves as saviours and have done nothing to back up that announcement.

Of course they needed to cut costs. I have no problem with that and it is a necessary albeit painful exercise. The problem is that they are effectively relegating the club this year, whereas dipping even lightly into their pockets may well have saved them a massive reduction in revenue next year.

Football clubs are a risky business and it seems as if SISU have not been prepared to gamble and have left us with a hopeless season of football. They have got their strategy (if they indeed have one) painfully wrong this year and it hurts. That is why so many fans are annoyed at SISU. If they want the supporters to turn out in force and not wave banners around calling for their heads, they need to let us know what's happening and they need to at least pretend that they care about what's happening on the pitch. Instead they have done the complete opposite and are driving people away.

Yes previous regimes are culpable. Perhaps even more culpable, who knows. But SISU are there at the moment and are turning us into a laughing stock, therefore they deserve as much ire as we can muster until something changes.

oldskyblue58 · Apr 17, 2012

The crux of the matter though isnt how many people we got in the ground though is it...... its how much money did we get out of the people in the ground & from other sources. Yes there is a correlation between crowd size and income but between 2007/08 and 2009/10 income remained at very similar levels yet crowds dropped 1818 people per game. That should have meant income down by £750K yet it showed a £100k increase.

I am not going to but, you could argue that the Board/SISU did a good job in maintaining income in those 3 years.

It is the income that dictates what can be spent not the numbers in the ground. It would seem to me that SISU have failed to not only get investors but failed to maintain income too and that is what caused the knee jerk cost slashing. Was that all their fault - probably not given the pressure on everyones disposable income over the last few years to name but one reason, but certainly their actions or inactions have not helped the cause of CCFC - in my opinion greatly hindered it

Moff · Apr 17, 2012

Frankly whether its Richardson, Robinson, Sisu, Thorn, the players or the kit man to blame, we are in the sh*t.

We can argue about it till we are blue in the face, and yet even after doing it all season we still all differ in opinion. I am sure we will continue this depressing debate through the pre season and into next.

In short though we are in the fekking mire and need to escape it. i dont have the answers but arguing over who to point the finger at doesnt seem to have helped us much.

Only my opinion

Keep smiling! and keep calm and be sky blue!

mememe · Apr 17, 2012

Sisu have played their part if you ask me. They are a business and what is first rule in investment ... know when not to invest.

I think we reached that point about 2 years ago. Sisu have firewood our top players and took the cheap options with everything ...

The players though this season let us down in the first and second third of the season...

It is combination of both that leads us to tonight's relegation game.

The seriousness of going down upon the finances of the club are huge.. this really could be the end of our club and that thought is simply rubbished. But the truth is we face administration ... liquidation and extinction.

No manager. About 7 first team players. No money for new players. Loans gone back. No decent players looking for a div3 club. Stadium too expensive to rent. Half the crowd. Depressing games. Football standard terrible. Away games at 4000 crowds. Tax evasion inquiries.

Ad yet all this at a time the league clubs are hit with the new rules on spending within means. I wonder if sisu know something we don't.

Either way there goes the sky TV revenues. Hello to a 10 second glimpse on the football league show.

To top it all off I see us being relegated next season too. We wont be good enough for division 3.

If we are going to go down tonight I just hope those boys fight tooth and nail. Otherwise they could get a very hostile responce... I'm pretty sure the milwall lot will rub it in big time tonight and there will be a few angryuns up there tonight

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 17, 2012

Depends what everyone prefers-go down with a whimper tonight or on Saturday, or take it to St Mary's and make a fist of it. If we lose tonight it won't be for the want of trying, that's for sure.

oldskyblue58 · Apr 17, 2012

Also over the last 10 seasons the blip in attendance isnt the fall .... it is the fact we got 21301 and 20342 in 2005/06 and 2006/7 respectively

Our average crowd over the last 10 years is 17263, even including the high blips. Doesnt that say that the depth of hardcore support really isnt there in the first place ?

oldskyblue58 · Apr 17, 2012

mememe said:
.

The seriousness of going down upon the finances of the club are huge.. this really could be the end of our club and that thought is simply rubbished. But the truth is we face administration ... liquidation and extinction.

No manager. About 7 first team players. No money for new players. Loans gone back. No decent players looking for a div3 club. Stadium too expensive to rent. Half the crowd. Depressing games. Football standard terrible. Away games at 4000 crowds. Tax evasion inquiries.

no manager ? 7 players ? Loans gone back ? tax evasion inquiries ? - was right with you until that please explain particularly the tax evasion one

mememe · Apr 17, 2012

I'm sure the government are about to investigate clubs that hold money in the likes of the caymans etc.. my understanding is the tax breaks are about to be broken an tax that had been evaded will be clawed back. In the same way pensions leaving and really entering the country are taxed. As for loan players gone back I can't see nimley and Norwood playing in that league. 7 first team players as we have some players no other team would buy. And no manager due to the fact thorn will not be here and who honestly would want the job. Marcus hall!?

oldskyblue58 · Apr 17, 2012

Thought you meant financial loans - but agree with you on that

CCFC dont hold money in the Caymans - the status of the investors might be under enquiry but thats not a club problem thats for SISU and its clients. As for sconset being taxed on the value of its investment in CCFC then unlikely to be much is it? 50% of £0

There are going to be lots of players available in the summer - wont be a problem getting players, might be getting the right ones though

There will always be someone who will chance his arm on management, and we dont know AT wont be here. Whether anyone else gets the fans support like AT who knows - more important will the owners support him in any way?

Blueandwhites · Apr 17, 2012

Failing to file accounts, defaulting on the rent, asset stripping, transfer embargo, failing to attract investment, no transparency, revolving boardroom door....etc. By some strange irony, the owners have almost managed to spin a perception that they are somehow shrewd by 'cutting the cloth' so to speak. Genius!

Delboycov · Apr 17, 2012

Blueandwhites said:
Failing to file accounts, defaulting on the rent, asset stripping, transfer embargo, failing to attract investment, no transparency, revolving boardroom door....etc. By some strange irony, the owners have almost managed to spin a perception that they are somehow shrewd by 'cutting the cloth' so to speak. Genius!

And there are those amongst us that lap it up....Great post mate.

valiant15 · Apr 17, 2012

Never mind,the sisu lovers will get the club they deserve soon enough.

Delboycov · Apr 17, 2012

TommyAtkins said:
Absoutely not.

We are fielding a weakened team because we cannot afford to buy players.

Where is this mythical money supposed to come from?

Or are we expecting other people to fund us indefinitely again?

You are so hung-up about a poxy relegation, when the very future of our club is at stake.

In 10 years time history will be the judge of whether it will be seen as a "poxy" relegation TA. If we are still league 1 or below then I personally won't see it as being that poxy. I agree with you about where the initial blame lies TA and always thought you came across as an intelligent, reasoned poster on GMK and although I agree that the past is having a major bearing on our future I don't absolve SISU from their contribution in making us the mess we currently are. From your posts on GMK I seem to recall you didn't either....

Colonel Mustard · Apr 17, 2012

Delboycov said:
What's shocks me more than that are those SISU apologists on here who would rather blame the fans than blame SISU....the most long suffering fans in the country. We are going down not because of Thorn,not because of Bryan Richardson, not because of the fans.....

Cast your mind back a decade - Richardson is ousted from CCFC after leaving us in the second-tier with £60m of debt and no stadium.

How would you have turned around that situation if you think Richardson is blameless?

dongonzalos · Apr 17, 2012

TommyAtkins said:
The club was left in the lurch by the incompetence of Richardson and Robinson.

We are in a mess because we spent money we didn't have.

And now we are paying the consequences.

We can't spend money we don't have.

For an objective observer, SISU have probably done the right thing, in terms of managing this club's finances properly.

SISU were aware of all of the above when they bought the club and saved us from administration dropping into the bottom 3, 4 points from safety. They saved us from our 37 million million pound debt at the time. We now have an estimated 38 million

So effectively they have achieved relegation for us which is what administration would have done but this way we still have our debts and it has taken 5 painful years to get there with them selling every decent player we like to watch due to their very bad decision to buy the club and deviate from their original business plan.

dongonzalos · Apr 17, 2012

TommyAtkins said:
This was all too inevitable and is a direct result of Robinson and Richardson.

Sooner or later, we have to face up the consequences of what they did to the Sky Blues.

I know ashbyjan shares your view that the cuts were too quick and too severe but even if they had delayed some of these measures, we would still be facing relegation.

The Championship is becoming ever more competitive and we would be gradually cut adrift.

But - if they continued to spend, we would still be increasing an unsustainable debt and an increasingly unamanageable deficit.

So when SISU took over why did they say we woud be in the premiership in 3 years. Why did they not say due to the actions of Richardson and Robinson we will have to cut our cloth accordingly sell every good player we have. Bring kids into the squad never acquire a share in the stadium. Have loads of directors leave and eventually get relegated.

torchomatic · Apr 17, 2012

Stop being so idiotic. There aren't any SISU lovers, just those who don't happen to agree with you.

valiant15 said:
Never mind,the sisu lovers will get the club they deserve soon enough.

Delboycov · Apr 17, 2012

Colonel Mustard said:
Cast your mind back a decade - Richardson is ousted from CCFC after leaving us in the second-tier with £60m of debt and no stadium.

How would you have turned around that situation if you think Richardson is blameless?

I wouldn't have touched the club with a barge pole...they did and I personally believe that makes them culpable for what's happened since.

dongonzalos · Apr 17, 2012

Colonel Mustard said:
Cast your mind back a decade - Richardson is ousted from CCFC after leaving us in the second-tier with £60m of debt and no stadium.

How would you have turned around that situation if you think Richardson is blameless?

Ypu cant say Richardson is blameless but unless SISU were completely duped when they bought the club.

They were fully aware of what they were taking on. They had a business plan they changed that plan after a year. They now dont seem to have a plan. Evevybody who comes in leaves them.

They refused to have talks with people who wanted to get them out of the mess. As orange man briefed against the potential buyers.

How can we say well they did take on a mess so don't blame SISU.

They looked at the mess and said we will turn this round and we will deliever promotion in 3 years. They made out they had cleared our debts and were looking to invest 20 million on top.

As I have said before, instead we are now reportedly a million pounds more in debt than when they took over. We have a transfer embargo. We are not paying our rent. We have sold far more good players than we have bought in. We have just had to draft 4 youth players into the match day squad. We are 4 points from safety.

As far as I am aware if SISU had not saved us when they did. We would have been put into the same league position as today. Most or our debts would have been wiped off. We would have had to sell players like we are now.

We may have been more attractive to owners who knew what they were doing. We may have owners who come out and tell us what their plan is.

The only positive I can see is they kept us in the championship for an extra 5 years.

However during this period I have struggled to have many fond memories.

About my only highlight has been the change in footballing style when they sacked Boothroyd and AT took over.

If that is the best highlight I can remember that says it all

Colonel Mustard · Apr 17, 2012

Delboycov said:
I wouldn't have touched the club with a barge pole...they did and I personally believe that makes them culpable for what's happened since.

If the club was non-bargepole-worthy, then surely it follows that the seriousness of future culpability is very limited. SISU ought to be held accountable for what they do, but you can't wholly excuse the Richardson boardroom after it left future owners with a radioactive wasteland on which to operate.

Colonel Mustard · Apr 17, 2012

dongonzalos said:
They were fully aware of what they were taking on. They had a business plan they changed that plan after a year. They now dont seem to have a plan. Evevybody who comes in leaves them.

That's not what the discussion is about. It's not about the merits of SISU's ownership, but the strange willingness to whitewash Richardson's legacy. You can't fairly assess SISU - or any other hypothetical owner - without framing it against the Richardson legacy.

As far as I am aware if SISU had not saved us when they did. We would have been put into the same league position as today. Most or our debts would have been wiped off. We would have had to sell players like we are now.

How was/is the club supposed to be run debt-free AND finance success without Premiership money, decent attendances, or stadium revenue?

dongonzalos · Apr 17, 2012

Colonel Mustard said:
That's not what the discussion is about. It's not about the merits of SISU's ownership, but the strange willingness to whitewash Richardson's legacy. You can't fairly assess SISU - or any other hypothetical owner - without framing it against the Richardson legacy.

How was/is the club supposed to be run debt-free AND finance success without Premiership money, decent attendances, or stadium revenue?

W e were twenty minutes from administration when they saved the day. 5 painfull years later we are in a worst position than if they had not saved the day.

Delboycov · Apr 17, 2012

Colonel Mustard said:
If the club was non-bargepole-worthy, then surely it follows that the seriousness of future culpability is very limited. SISU ought to be held accountable for what they do, but you can't wholly excuse the Richardson boardroom after it left future owners with a radioactive wasteland on which to operate.

I do actually agree with that Colonel as I said in my previous post...I don't think all our ills are down to SISU...just some of them

Colonel Mustard · Apr 17, 2012

dongonzalos said:
W e were twenty minutes from administration when they saved the day. 5 painfull years later we are in a worst position than if they had not saved the day.

We don't know that for a fact - we can only speculate. For all we know, there might not have been a Coventry City Football Club had the takeover not gone through.

mememe · Apr 17, 2012

Don't worry Hoffman will save us

Grendel · Apr 17, 2012

dongonzalos said:
SISU were aware of all of the above when they bought the club and saved us from administration dropping into the bottom 3, 4 points from safety. They saved us from our 37 million million pound debt
at the time. We now have an estimated 38 million
So effectively they have achieved relegation for us which is
what administration would have done but this way we still
have our debts and it has taken 5 painful years to get there
with them selling every decent player we like to watch due to their very bad decision to buy the club and deviate from their original business plan.

This is speculation and not relevant. Administration would have bought us relegation and an ownership of a consortium owned by Robinson as he was the one other game in town.
The better players we had then were not affordable. We were paying wages and not our debts. No better than Portsmouth. Sisu gave us an extension before our misery. Not a great 5 years but better than the alternative which was nothing.

SISU disgrace (7 Viewers)

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