SISU Strategy ? (1 Viewer)

John_Silletts_Nose · Jan 24, 2014

We all guess and speculate about what SISU are doing, here is another conspiracy theory which could be true (note. Sepalla and her husband are financiers and property developers)

Plan A
Buy football club cheap, gain promotion to Premier League torealise massive revenue increases.
Exit Strategy: Sell club for large profit.
Status: FAILED and Ranson removed

Plan B
Buy stadium cheaply by bankrupting lease owners. Develop land,renegotiate contracts with tenants, giving massive revenue and capitalincreases.
Exit Strategy: Sell stadium& development for large profit; sell club for cost or some profit.
Status: FAILED so far but ON-GOING as Judicial Review may changethings

Plan C
Major property development on large green belt site.
Details: Obtain permission to build new stadium on green beltland, minimum of 60 acre site.
Use political contacts in government (Labovitch, etc), localbusinesses (Garlic, etc) and community interest (football club) to sway agovernment decision on use of green belt land.
Build small cheap stadium and other development on green beltland.
Exit Strategy: Sellfootball club, but retain property and land. Allow club to move to Ricoh ifthey wish, for a buy-out of lease contract, so freeing up stadium land orcharge large rent to club for the stadium. Change the use of the land intocommercial/residential and gain planning to build on green belt land, givingmassive capital and revenue increases.
Exit Strategy: Sell land development for large profit.
Status: ON-GOING

Astute · Jan 24, 2014

It is much simpler than that. Threaten to sue everyone to see what options they have and do whatever makes their investors the most money.

Specs WT-R75 · Jan 24, 2014

I don't like the smell of Plan D

The Gentleman · Jan 24, 2014

Is there one?

Specs WT-R75 · Jan 24, 2014

The Gentleman said:
Is there one?

It won't be pleasant

John_Silletts_Nose · Jan 24, 2014

Astute said:
It is much simpler than that. Threaten to sue everyone to see what options they have and do whatever makes their investors the most money.

Agree, that is true but they give a pretence of having a strategy to their investors.

We should target the investors (the ultimate owners) and point out that the investment strategy is losing them money.

Nick · Jan 24, 2014

John_Silletts_Nose said:
Agree, that is true but they give a pretence of having a strategy to their investors.

We should target the investors (the ultimate owners) and point out that the investment strategy is losing them money.

Surely the investors will already know if their investments are making money or not?

Hobo · Jan 24, 2014

Nick said:
Surely the investors will already know if their investments are making money or not?

Have you had an endowment mortgage? If so how accurate would you know it is performing on a month to month basis even yearly. Do you know where your money is being invested to get a retun.

If you have a pension fund Nick which markets is it invested in? SISU are in the long term pensions market?

Nick · Jan 24, 2014

Hobo said:
Have you had an endowment mortgage? If so how accurate would you know it is performing on a month to month basis even yearly. Do you know where your money is being invested to get a retun.

If you have a pension fund Nick which markets is it invested in? SISU are in the long term pensions market?

Nope I haven't had either, but if I had invested money where it could be risky or invested in something that would make a loss I would probably keep an eye on my hard earned to know how it is doing.

chiefdave · Jan 24, 2014

Nick said:
Surely the investors will already know if their investments are making money or not?

Depends really, do you know how each individual company your pension fund is investing in is doing? If it was one person investing £20m then they would be keeping an eye on what is going on, if it's a small part of a larger pension fund it's a lot easier to hide.

How does the money 'owed' to investors work? While we know they have very little chance of getting it back the fact that the club owes xyz pension fund £10m may not be so detecable if it's not shown as a loss or unlikely to be repaid.

magic82ball · Jan 24, 2014

Getting information on any investment is easy. On a week to week basis usually a Thursday (with the big high street banks anyway)as this is when the new tranche of monies are invested.

If you want to know what your endowment is worth, phone the provider and they will tell you.

wingy · Jan 24, 2014

The difference here being ,the previous Investment came from the funds ,the current investment appears to be private equity.

John_Silletts_Nose · Jan 24, 2014

Nick said:
Surely the investors will already know if their investments are making money or not?

As an example, the University of Pennsylvania Endowment Fund is only of the major investors in SISU Capital (or linked companies), this fund is worth $6.8 billion, of which only a percentage is invested in private equity funds, which is still a large figure to us but not to them.

They have no interest in how they obtain the ROI, they just want an ROI at the bottom line, CCFC are just pennies to them.

Spionkop · Jan 24, 2014

Nick, do you get someone to pick the splinters out of your backside every day, after sitting on the fence all the time?
No harm in reminding the investors in Sisu's evil plans just how their money is pouring down the drain.

magic82ball · Jan 24, 2014

chiefdave said:
Depends really, do you know how each individual company your pension fund is investing in is doing? If it was one person investing £20m then they would be keeping an eye on what is going on, if it's a small part of a larger pension fund it's a lot easier to hide.

How does the money 'owed' to investors work? While we know they have very little chance of getting it back the fact that the club owes xyz pension fund £10m may not be so detecable if it's not shown as a loss or unlikely to be repaid.

Again, any pension portfolio will be diversified over up to 100 different companies, In SISU case, they would not necessarily take 100% of a pension fund but might receive say 5% of this with the rest spread out into other investment areas at the fund managers choice. It would take an investor with balls of steel to invest 100% with one company as if they go tits up, you've done your money.

chiefdave · Jan 24, 2014

magic82ball said:
Again, any pension portfolio will be diversified over up to 100 different companies, In SISU case, they would not necessarily take 100% of a pension fund but might receive say 5% of this with the rest spread out into other investment areas at the fund managers choice. It would take an investor with balls of steel to invest 100% with one company as if they go tits up, you've done your money.

I'd be interested to know if the amount they've invested still sits happily on the balance sheet. Could explain their reluctance to let go of CCFC as that would be the point at which they'd have to write that money off? Is that how it works or have the been slowly writing it off over time?

Nick · Jan 24, 2014

Spionkop said:
Nick, do you get someone to pick the splinters out of your backside every day, after sitting on the fence all the time?
No harm in reminding the investors in Sisu's evil plans just how their money is pouring down the drain.

You are getting boring. Can't you and Fred go and hunt for sisus evil lair?

Don't really see how asking that surely they know they are losing money is sitting on the fence?

Covstu · Jan 24, 2014

I have a pension and know exactly where my money is going and how it is performing. I have the opportunity to move that money around into lower/higher risk markets and ethical/unehtical funding streams. This is no different so they know exactly where their money is going but the question is probably more around what is the plan to improve that yield and to be honest they are probably not that concerned as long as they get a return.

Nick · Jan 24, 2014

Covstu said:
I have a pension and know exactly where my money is going and how it is performing. I have the opportunity to move that money around into lower/higher risk markets and ethical/unehtical funding streams. This is no different so they know exactly where their money is going but the question is probably more around what is the plan to improve that yield and to be honest they are probably not that concerned as long as they get a return.

So if you saw your money wasn't going very well ie sisu you could just sack them off and move it?

Captain Dart · Jan 24, 2014

Well explained Mr nose, the interesting thing here is either the club or the city get screwed. I don't really like either option, i prefer a path where SISU take the hit.

John_Silletts_Nose · Jan 24, 2014

Spionkop said:
Nick, do you get someone to pick the splinters out of your backside every day, after sitting on the fence all the time?
No harm in reminding the investors in Sisu's evil plans just how their money is pouring down the drain.

I think it's wrong to complain about Nick, he is the forum regulator and is entitled (as all are) to ask questions and can be on either side of a discussion. Sometimes he may do it to provoke a reaction.

SISU's plans are not evil to them or their investors, they are just not clear to us and I believe if revealed they are more detrimental to CCFC than we realise.

magic82ball · Jan 24, 2014

chiefdave said:
I'd be interested to know if the amount they've invested still sits happily on the balance sheet. Could explain their reluctance to let go of CCFC as that would be the point at which they'd have to write that money off? Is that how it works or have the been slowly writing it off over time?

Absolutely no way will it be written off.

To get value on the investment, every penny accrued will be added on to the debt, this is the only way they can be certain of a profit when they come to sell.

In SISU's instance, they might be happy with a break even figure or even a small loss on sale but that will only be written off at sale.

chiefdave · Jan 24, 2014

magic82ball said:
Absolutely no way will it be written off.

To get value on the investment, every penny accrued will be added on to the debt, this is the only way they can be certain of a profit when they come to sell.

In SISU's instance, they might be happy with a break even figure or even a small loss on sale but that will only be written off at sale.

I don't mean written off at our end so it's not owed by the club anymore (even tho Fisher did state around 18 months ago that every penny put in by SISU had been converted to equity!). I meant do they decrease the value in the pension pot so that over time its not as noticable if it all goes tits up and the money isn't there to pay back. Not sure I'm explaining it very well as I don't know the correct terminology!

magic82ball · Jan 24, 2014

Nick said:
So if you saw your money wasn't going very well ie sisu you could just sack them off and move it?

Depends if its a managed fund or not.

If a fund manager has it, he will have yours and a 1000 other people's money who all want to invest in exactly the same way (i.e. Low Risk, Medium, Adventurous etc.) So picking the individual companies of hedge funds is difficult, the only real way to mitigate that is to either change your risk strategy to ethical for example (surprisingly SISU are not in this category) or to manage the fund yourself and you pick the 20 odd companies that you want in your portfolio - this is a lot riskier though so a pension fund for example would almost always use managed but personal may be self select investments.

magic82ball · Jan 24, 2014

chiefdave said:
I don't mean written off at our end so it's not owed by the club anymore (even tho Fisher did state around 18 months ago that every penny put in by SISU had been converted to equity!). I meant do they decrease the value in the pension pot so that over time its not as noticable if it all goes tits up and the money isn't there to pay back. Not sure I'm explaining it very well as I don't know the correct terminology!

Well effectively yes.

If a particular investment is not performing in a fund then it will have a negative effect on the fund (pension pot) but the effects of this may be diluted somewhat if there are other investments in the fund that are over performing. Its very unlikely that the average international SISU investor would know that they have ballse'd up with a CCFC just by simply looking at their pension statements, it just shows bottom line figures.

But the point remains that the debt still wont be written off until the asset is crystalized - Sold off.

chiefdave · Jan 24, 2014

magic82ball said:
But the point remains that the debt still wont be written off until the asset is crystalized - Sold off.

So that could be an incentive for SISU to stick around? If they were to leave they would have to right off the investment and then questions might be asked.

Wonder if there are any rules about what you can invest in, I know all investment is a risk but could SISU face any kind of action for continuing to put investors money into CCFC with little or no chance of a return?

grego_gee · Jan 24, 2014

But its not a public investment fund, its more like a millionaires club!

grego_gee said:
Here is a definition of What is a hedge fund from Investopedia
link

John_Silletts_Nose · Jan 24, 2014

magic82ball said:
Well effectively yes.

If a particular investment is not performing in a fund then it will have a negative effect on the fund (pension pot) but the effects of this may be diluted somewhat if there are other investments in the fund that are over performing. Its very unlikely that the average international SISU investor would know that they have ballse'd up with a CCFC just by simply looking at their pension statements, it just shows bottom line figures.

But the point remains that the debt still wont be written off until the asset is crystalized - Sold off.

I think this is a good point and why the investors should be targeted and informed about the way in which the CCFC investment is being mis-managed and losing money in the hope of a big payday which may not arrive.

SISU keep a small footprint online and hide any negative press that investors may see, the threat to sue regarding posting a link to the Guardian article is an example of this approach.

chiefdave · Jan 24, 2014

John_Silletts_Nose said:
I think this is a good point and why the investors should be targeted and informed about the way in which the CCFC investment is being mis-managed and losing money in the hope of a big payday which may not arrive.

Didn't we go down this road before and it was said it was near impossible to identify who the investors in the funds were? That said if more coverage was gained in the likes of the FT that could lead to questions being asked of SISU.

magic82ball · Jan 24, 2014

chiefdave said:
So that could be an incentive for SISU to stick around? If they were to leave they would have to right off the investment and then questions might be asked.

Wonder if there are any rules about what you can invest in, I know all investment is a risk but could SISU face any kind of action for continuing to put investors money into CCFC with little or no chance of a return?

Its the reason have stuck around so long, its the reason they bought us back after going into admin.

They will only sell when they feel they have adequate return on their investment.

2 things will happen:

Either they will get control of the Arena and sell the club as a package to give them maximum returns

or

They don't get control of the Arena and they will liquidate straight away to mitigate further losses.

Talk of a new stadium is just talk, it would cost more to build than they would ever get by simply agreeing to a reduced rent and selling CCFC.

ccfcway · Jan 24, 2014

Nick said:
So if you saw your money wasn't going very well ie sisu you could just sack them off and move it?

100% correct Nick. people used to invest theri money by way of season tickets. We saw they moved us to Northampton and over 9,000 moved that season ticket money away from them

grego_gee · Jan 24, 2014

Where is all this going I pray?
Fan power is all very well - (and I am all in favour of even fan ownership, given time, money and organisation)
but I think it really should stop a little way short of aspiring to oust and then
choosing your own millionaire owners.

bigfatronssba · Jan 24, 2014

grego_gee said:
Where is all this going I pray?
Fan power is all very well - (and I am all in favour of even fan ownership, given time, money and organisation)
but I think it really should stop a little way short of aspiring to oust and then
choosing your own millionaire owners.

Why shouldn't we have that power?

John_Silletts_Nose · Jan 24, 2014

magic82ball said:
Its the reason have stuck around so long, its the reason they bought us back after going into admin.

They will only sell when they feel they have adequate return on their investment.

2 things will happen:

Either they will get control of the Arena and sell the club as a package to give them maximum returns

or

They don't get control of the Arena and they will liquidate straight away to mitigate further losses.

Talk of a new stadium is just talk, it would cost more to build than they would ever get by simply agreeing to a reduced rent and selling CCFC.

I think there is another option where they buy and have permission to build on a 60-70 acre green belt site. Then sell the club to someone else, change the use of green belt land development and sell for an inflated figure, so making the ROI required.

grego_gee · Jan 24, 2014

bigfatronssba said:
Why shouldn't we have that power?

Why do you think you should?
It is after all their money!

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