Sisu, We Don't Believe You! (1 Viewer)

GaryPendrysEyes · Dec 20, 2013

The photo we have seen today of a lego stadium apparently produced by a 12 year old for £10 pocket money just confirms what many of us knew already, your 'plan' for a 'Sisu Arena' is a myth, with no substance.
It is simply a pretence, with Coventry fans and the people of Coventry just collateral damage, in pressuring ACL, CCC to handover the Ricoh to you and cheap.
You have over the last few months spent a few £1000 talking, sketching and spinning this myth. Just enough, you hope, to give credibility to the tale. You have failed.

It simply proves, and any reference to 'Highfield Rd 2' simply makes it more cynical and cruel, that you are not a fit and proper owner of CCFC or the Ricoh.

My opinion of course, I trust we are still allowed them.

mrtrench · Dec 20, 2013

For me, the cast iron proof that SISU will never do this is that there is no high margin profit to be had.

Hedge funds invest in distressed debt etc. because it is cheap. If they can turn it around the returns they get can be hundreds of percent larger than initial investment. Property developers build and let buildings. Their returns are far less spectacular. If SISU's investors wanted exposure to property, built and paid for at market price, they would buy shares in British Land.

The only motivation here is to get the Ricoh on the cheap - hence all the bluff. Actually acquiring the land and building the stadium would only go ahead if they though that they could still bankrupt ACL in the meantime and it would be worth the investment on the land.

GaryPendrysEyes · Dec 20, 2013

Agreed, Sisu's business is managing debt not property development. Are they really going to sink 20m into a long term venture with massive risk?

What gets me is most seem to accept it's not gonna happen and it's just a game plan, but don't seem to be bothered that Cov fans and Citizens are, if true, basically being lied to and used.

afan4life · Dec 20, 2013

Don't understand why they need 12.000 seater ??
2000 would suffice

grego_gee · Dec 20, 2013

mrtrench said:
For me, the cast iron proof that SISU will never do this is that there is no high margin profit to be had.

Hedge funds invest in distressed debt etc. because it is cheap. If they can turn it around the returns they get can be hundreds of percent larger than initial investment. Property developers build and let buildings. Their returns are far less spectacular. If SISU's investors wanted exposure to property, built and paid for at market price, they would buy shares in British Land.

The only motivation here is to get the Ricoh on the cheap - hence all the bluff. Actually acquiring the land and building the stadium would only go ahead if they though that they could still bankrupt ACL in the meantime and it would be worth the investment on the land.

I think they have ample room for profit. It turns the land around such a development into prime retail land worth much more.
Remember the Councils input to the Ricoh was only £10m most of the rest came from grants and selling off parts of the site.
The Council managed to secure an "asset" that is apparently conceived as worth £118m for an outlay of only £10m
SISU can do that over again.

SIR ERNIE · Dec 20, 2013

GaryPendrysEyes said:
Agreed, Sisu's business is managing debt not property development. Are they really going to sink 20m into a long term venture with massive risk?

What gets me is most seem to accept it's not gonna happen and it's just a game plan, but don't seem to be bothered that Cov fans and Citizens are, if true, basically being lied to and used.

Totally right GPE. These owners are laughing at the club, it's fans and it's history. They don't give a toss, they treat CCFC with utter contempt.

However for me the buck stops with the FL.

For me, they are ultimately responsible for our situation because they are allowing SISU to treat them and one of their oldest member clubs in this way.

SISU fail the FL's 'Fit & Proper' test on numerous counts.

The FL need to be lobbied from all angles to bring this mob down.

GaryPendrysEyes · Dec 20, 2013

afan4life said:
Don't understand why they need 12.000 seater ??
2000 would suffice

We have gone from Operation Premiership to relegation and a 12000 seater 'plan' in less than 6 years. A lesson in business failure.

wafw1971 · Dec 20, 2013

What happens if next week the announce the have purchased the land, would we still not believe them. At this moment in time Sisu have done everything they said they would, what makes you think they are bluffing this time?

I think if the Council don't intervene then they will build it.

shmmeee · Dec 20, 2013

grego_gee said:
I think they have ample room for profit. It turns the land around such a development into prime retail land worth much more.
Remember the Councils input to the Ricoh was only £10m most of the rest came from grants and selling off parts of the site.
The Council managed to secure an "asset" that is apparently conceived as worth £118m for an outlay of only £10m
SISU can do that over again.

Do you ever post anything remotely accurate?

Sisu won't have access to regional development funds or be able to make promises about planning.

Also, any ground that meets Fishers requirements for land will be so far out of town and competing with places like the Arena Park anyway.

Finally, you fail to mention how the club would pay even £10m debt when the current interest payments to Sisus existing loans are 10 times the Ricoh rent offer.

chiefdave · Dec 20, 2013

grego_gee said:
It turns the land around such a development into prime retail land worth much more.

That's all going to depend on location. Out in the middle of nowhere with a few thousand people turning up every other Saturday (possibly with little or no public transport links) will never be prime retail land. The difference with the Ricoh site is that it was previously contamintated land within the city that couldn't be used, by cleaning it up they could then interest the likes of Tesco, a totally different scenario to someone miles out of the city.

grego_gee said:
Remember the Councils input to the Ricoh was only £10m most of the rest came from grants and selling off parts of the site.

Much of the money used could not have been used if it was a private project as it came from regeneration funds and the like. Thats before you even consider that the economic situation was much different when that money was being given out. I can't see many grants being given to SISU to build a statium to make money for themselves.

Of course all these questions could be avoided if SISU had actually given us details of how the project will be funded.

ThroughThickAndThin · Dec 20, 2013

wafw1971 said:
What happens if next week the announce the have purchased the land, would we still not believe them. At this moment in time Sisu have done everything they said they would, what makes you think they are bluffing this time?

I think if the Council don't intervene then they will build it.

I agree with this post and I'm not sure why more people don't.

GaryPendrysEyes · Dec 20, 2013

wafw1971 said:
What happens if next week the announce the have purchased the land, would we still not believe them. At this moment in time Sisu have done everything they said they would, what makes you think they are bluffing this time?

I think if the Council don't intervene then they will build it.

Fisher said plans were 6 weeks away, we got a Legoland drawing after 6 months. If we see £100,000s committed then I might believe they are mad enough. So far all talk and flim flam for their game of attrition. The ball as ever is in the court of the business owner Sisu, if they want to make an offer for the Ricoh, let's hear it, not this game plan.

chiefdave · Dec 20, 2013

wafw1971 said:
What happens if next week the announce the have purchased the land, would we still not believe them. At this moment in time Sisu have done everything they said they would, what makes you think they are bluffing this time?

No they haven't, in June Fisher said in a couple of weeks we would have all the details - plans, location etc. We're now 6 months into a 3 year project and there's no plans, just an artists impression, there's no site, and we're told that is now months away, they've not even applied for planning permission let alone been granted it.

I said a long time ago buying land was meaningless. They could buy land, even submit plans with no intention of building it. Land will generally hold its value and in the grand scheme of things some off the shelf plans and submitting for planning permission cost very little. Until the thing is being built personallly I will not belive it is happening.

Noggin · Dec 20, 2013

grego_gee said:
I think they have ample room for profit. It turns the land around such a development into prime retail land worth much more.
Remember the Councils input to the Ricoh was only £10m most of the rest came from grants and selling off parts of the site.
The Council managed to secure an "asset" that is apparently conceived as worth £118m for an outlay of only £10m
SISU can do that over again.

Does it though? because it seems to me we already have more out of the city shopping areas than we need, we already have more large supermarkets than we need, the fact we have have by far the biggest shop we've ever had suggests to me that those places are currently cheap to get a lease for and thus there is significantly more supply than demand. wouldn't we have seen more developments at the ricoh over the last few years if it was really attractive.

sky blue john · Dec 20, 2013

grego_gee said:
I think they have ample room for profit. It turns
the land around such a development into prime retail land worth much more.
Remember the Councils input to the Ricoh was only £10m most of the rest came from grants and selling off parts of the site.
The Council managed to secure an "asset" that is apparently conceived as worth £118m for an outlay of only £10m
SISU can do that over again.

Your in fairy tale land with Sisu !!!!

chiefdave · Dec 20, 2013

Just to change the subject for a minute here's the full details of Pompey's new ground which will replace Fratton Park

http://www.dezeen.com/2007/04/27/portsmouth-fc-by-herzog-de-meuron/

It's due to open in 2012

RPHunt · Dec 20, 2013

There is, of course, no pot of gold to be had from building a football stadium on this scale.

If there was, there are dozens of property companies, who actually understand the business, that would be doing this in partnership with the many League clubs now occupying ramshackle grounds.

It is good to see that Fisher has fooled no one apart from a few simpletons.

dongonzalos · Dec 20, 2013

grego_gee said:
I think they have ample room for profit. It turns the land around such a development into prime retail land worth much more.
Remember the Councils input to the Ricoh was only £10m most of the rest came from grants and selling off parts of the site.
The Council managed to secure an "asset" that is apparently conceived as worth £118m for an outlay of only £10m
SISU can do that over again.

Grego

If the councils is worth 118.

SISU (ccfc) will be in debt to a tune of nearly 100 million with the costs of this, the Northampton debacle plus the current debt. If it ever happened.

Do you think they will recoup 100 million for something far inferior to the Ricoh?

grego_gee · Dec 20, 2013

shmmeee said:
Do you ever post anything remotely accurate?

Sisu won't have access to regional development funds or be able to make promises about planning.

Also, any ground that meets Fishers requirements for land will be so far out of town and competing with places like the Arena Park anyway.

Finally, you fail to mention how the club would pay even £10m debt when the current interest payments to Sisus existing loans are 10 times the Ricoh rent offer.

The total input to the Ricoh from grants was less than £10m so not very significant, but grants would be available to any developer not only a council.
Interestingly the illustrations show us only a stadium bowl.
The Ricoh has a great deal of high cost/ft building on the side that is much higher cost than the stadium bowl itself. Probably less than half of cost of the Ricoh went on the stadium bowl. ie £59m of the £118 (£30m out of the £60m construction cost)
They are proposing a stadium with a reduced capacity so the cost could be expected to be less than that (but not half).
If we say the cost is £40m, and if they can apply leverage at the same rate as the Ricoh they would only need to invest £4m themselves!

GaryPendrysEyes · Dec 20, 2013

RPHunt said:
There is, of course, no pot of gold to be had from building a football stadium on this scale.

If there was, there are dozens of property companies, who actually understand the business, that would be doing this in partnership with the many League clubs now occupying ramshackle grounds.

It is good to see that Fisher has fooled no one apart from a few simpletons.

...And of course we already have a ground, have a significant part of the fanbase who might not go to a 'Sisu Arena', council/planning issues-- which makes it even less business attractive and a lot more risky...

dongonzalos · Dec 20, 2013

chiefdave said:
Just to change the subject for a minute here's the full details of Pompey's new ground which will replace Fratton Park

View attachment 3141

http://www.dezeen.com/2007/04/27/portsmouth-fc-by-herzog-de-meuron/

It's due to open in 2012

Puts it all in perspective

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Dec 20, 2013

grego_gee said:
The total input to the Ricoh from grants was less than £10m so not very significant, but grants would be available to any developer not only a council.
Interestingly the illustrations show us only a stadium bowl.
The Ricoh has a great deal of high cost/ft building on the side that is much higher cost than the stadium bowl itself. Probably less than half of cost of the Ricoh went on the stadium bowl. ie £59m of the £118 (£30m out of the £60m construction cost)
They are proposing a stadium with a reduced capacity so the cost could be expected to be less than that (but not half).
If we say the cost is £40m, and if they can apply leverage at the same rate as the Ricoh they would only need to invest £4m themselves!

I can't even believe I'm bothering to type this; but on what basis do you think a grant would be awarded to develop green or brown field land given there's an unused stadium a couple of miles away that's fit for function?

magic82ball · Dec 20, 2013

wafw1971 said:
What happens if next week the announce the have purchased the land, would we still not believe them. At this moment in time Sisu have done everything they said they would, what makes you think they are bluffing this time?

I think if the Council don't intervene then they will build it.

I still wouldnt beleive them. Until I see a spade in the ground I will never beleive their spin. I'ts all pressure tactics.

However, Should they amaze me by actually building then I think, assuming it is in Coventry versinity the tact should change and people should go and support the team.

Noggin · Dec 20, 2013

magic82ball said:
I still wouldnt beleive them. Until I see a spade in the ground I will never beleive their spin. I'ts all pressure tactics.

However, Should they amaze me by actually building then I think, assuming it is in Coventry versinity the tact should change and people should go and support the team.

We can discuss that then for sure, but I can't see Coventry city football club existing by then, at best we are in the conference.

magic82ball · Dec 20, 2013

Noggin said:
We can discuss that then for sure, but I can't see Coventry city football club existing by then, at best we are in the conference.

Unfortunately your probably right.

Joy Division · Dec 20, 2013

A friend of mine who has worked on the planning for the AMEX stadium in Brighton is finding this all quite amusing and intriguing after emailing him the telegraph link this morning.

GaryPendrysEyes · Dec 20, 2013

Joy Division said:
A friend of mine who has worked on the planning for the AMEX stadium in Brighton is finding this all quite amusing and intriguing after emailing him the telegraph link this morning.

Tell us more..... does he like Legoland?

italiahorse · Dec 20, 2013

wafw1971 said:
What happens if next week the announce the have purchased the land, would we still not believe them. At this moment in time Sisu have done everything they said they would, what makes you think they are bluffing this time?

I think if the Council don't intervene then they will build it.

I think if they have done a business plan they will know that people will drop off like flies in supporting a team outside Coventry.
Perhaps 12,000 will be enough for the numbers left, but as Coventry fans is that what we want?
We have been at the Ricoh for big matches and that will be lost forever.
Just imagine getting into the Premiership and again living the dream. That will be gone forever.

Houdi · Dec 20, 2013

chiefdave said:
Just to change the subject for a minute here's the full details of Pompey's new ground which will replace Fratton Park

View attachment 3141

http://www.dezeen.com/2007/04/27/portsmouth-fc-by-herzog-de-meuron/

It's due to open in 2012

Indeed Bristol City announced plans for a new 30,000 stadium at Ashton Vale in November 2007, more than 6 years ago. Planning permission was granted in 2009, but was blocked by protestors, so now they are looking to redevelop Ashton Gate. This all took place with Council support and fan backing, so SISU's 12-18 month timescale is looking like a little wishful thinking.

Senior Vick from Alicante · Dec 20, 2013

The thing that makes their argument unconvincing for me at the moment is the modular design with 12000 capacity part. If you want to maximise ticket revenues you will need more than 12000 seats and I believe this would not be enough if the proposed build was within a couple of miles of the city, this would also inhibit the amount they can put on the playing field through FFP rules. Its all just a smoke screen to add to their unconvincing land grab strategy, I don't believe the stadium will be built and the sooner the Judicial review is concluded the closer we will be to getting a real outcome to this whole sorry affair. Why would you build a 12000 capacity when one promotion would increase the gate size in excess of your seats available. NOPM

asb · Dec 20, 2013

chiefdave said:
Just to change the subject for a minute here's the full details of Pompey's new ground which will replace Fratton Park

View attachment 3141

http://www.dezeen.com/2007/04/27/portsmouth-fc-by-herzog-de-meuron/

It's due to open in 2012

They produced pictures and everything just like SISU have, they hired the services of a reputable company to manage the design just like SISU have, ("The firm is responsible for both the Beijing National Stadium, centrepiece of next year’s Beijing Olympics, and the Allianz Arena football stadium in Munich") but unlike SISU they had named the location, so one step ahead. So it was built right, as per the picture?

Surely once you have produced some concept art you are fully committed.

GaryPendrysEyes · Dec 20, 2013

Is there a firm 'next milestone' Sisu have committed to with regard to this stadium? I dont mean consultation, or talking; I mean a key milestone like a detailed plan, location/planning request, sign-off of the finance package...

Sisu, We Don't Believe You! (1 Viewer)

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