Sisu (1 Viewer)

BornSlippySkyBlue said:

You are absolutely correct of course that the accuracy of any figures in the public domain is unknown and could well be miles off. I’m curious though, are you saying that you know the figure to be wrong or are you simply pointing out that nobody actually knows?

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I would suggest that nobody who posts here (with the exception of Dave Boddy) actually knows.

Information like this has never been fully in the public domain. Occasional bits of information leaks out of the club (like the sale of a player). Those connected to the club may have a greater inkling of future plans than the general public (like the abortive plans for Highfield Road). But the St Andrews deal is different and I suggest very, very few at the club will actually know the terms of the rental agreement and to so suggest details have been 'leaked' is completely absurd.

I firmly believe there are those who deliberately want to portray the deal at St Andrews as being financially disastrous for the club and they don't give a damn what the truth is.

Woodingdean_Sky_Blue said:

I would suggest that nobody who posts here (with the exception of Dave Boddy) actually knows.

Information like this has never been fully in the public domain. Occasional bits of information leaks out of the club (like the sale of a player). Those connected to the club may have a greater inkling of future plans than the general public (like the abortive plans for Highfield Road). But the St Andrews deal is different and I suggest very, very few at the club will actually know the terms of the rental agreement and to so suggest details have been 'leaked' is completely absurd.

I firmly believe there are those who deliberately want to portray the deal at St Andrews as being financially disastrous for the club and they don't give a damn what the truth is.

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Does Dave Boddy post on here? That’s interesting

shmmeee said:

He doesn’t fucking know. He’s just in full on defence force mode because someone asked a question.

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Just pointing put you're full of shit doesn't make me defensive.

Grendel said:

Are you Martin Singleton?

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No, but I used to know him.

Grendel said:

Does Dave Boddy post on here? That’s interesting

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I think you'll find he has done...

Woodingdean_Sky_Blue said:

I think you'll find he has done...

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How fascinating - tell you what let’s have a charity bet of £100 to see if it’s gone up or not

Woodingdean_Sky_Blue said:

The accounts include the following statement:

"Investment in properties
The Group has invested in certain residential and commercial properties in Phnom Penh, Cambodia. The investment of properties secured a stable stream of income for the Group and the long-term appreciation in value of the investment properties can bring further values to the Company and the Shareholders as a whole. The management will continue to explore in this business segment and will make further investments as and when potential opportunities arise. "

Later in the accounts (pages 159-160) there is a list of the principal properties owned, they are all in Cambodia.

The accounts also tell us the stadium appears to be owned by Birmingham City Stadium Limited that in turn is owned by Birmingham Sports Holdings Ltd, so you won't see clear figures for the rental of St Andrews in the accounts you have.

Interestingly, there is mention of funding for redevelopment of the stadium.

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Thanks for telling me what i already knew and caveated my post with


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Grendel said:

It’s not my bullshit

The rent at the Ricoh before departing was minimal - around £300,000 - it’s fairly obvious the rent at St Andrews is higher than that and many sources have quoted the £50k a game.

It’s clearly more expensive and I’m sure Fisher somewhere acknowledged it but then blathered on about getting better revenues from F and B

Your obtuse behaviour is rather odd

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Well we were told at the coventry CCFC supporters branch that it was more then £1m and that Vile Park was offered for 500,000 but that the history between the 2 clubs threw that out.
These are not my figures and they came from big Sisu supporters.

Woodingdean_Sky_Blue said:

I would suggest that nobody who posts here (with the exception of Dave Boddy) actually knows.

Information like this has never been fully in the public domain. Occasional bits of information leaks out of the club (like the sale of a player). Those connected to the club may have a greater inkling of future plans than the general public (like the abortive plans for Highfield Road). But the St Andrews deal is different and I suggest very, very few at the club will actually know the terms of the rental agreement and to so suggest details have been 'leaked' is completely absurd.

I firmly believe there are those who deliberately want to portray the deal at St Andrews as being financially disastrous for the club and they don't give a damn what the truth is.

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And what would be the agenda of said person or group?

Woodingdean_Sky_Blue said:

You have no idea who I am or who I might know.

If you'd read the thread you'd already have known:

"I have links with the club that go back decades and that are highly credible. I also know someone who formerly worked for the club and is a well known Walter Mitty who delights in telling tall tales."

Just because a bunch of provocateurs embark upon a course of misinformation doesn't make that misinformation true.

Come back when you've got copies of the relevant contracts, otherwise get lost.

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Stop spreading misinformation then.
Where is your proof of the deal being better then the Ricoh.
If you dont have any do one!

shmmeee said:

Decisions about where we play have nothing to do with the club. If they did we’d be back already. The only reason to stay away is wider political games/emotional reactions and always has been.


I mean, you’re not someone with links to the club and you aren’t being corroborated by others with links to the club, soooo

Sorry if it upsets you but based on the rumours from multiple sources those are roughly the figures. If you’ve got sources saying otherwise crack on, otherwise cry more.

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Yep I remember you saying that before, rational

Woodingdean_Sky_Blue said:

The £50 pa is just an example of how anyone might make up a figure. What happened around the arrangement at St Andrews is someone (or a group) invented a figure and then set about repeating it at every possible opportunity. As Goebbels said:

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it "

You seem to be one of those keen on promoting the idea that a deal at St Andrews can't be as good as a deal at the Ricoh, even though you have precisely no actual evidence to support this. Tell me, do you admire what Goebbels did for the world of propaganda?

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You've gone off the deep end here fella.

Well let's suppose COVID had never happened, and we had gone on to comfortably secure promotion on the pitch. Going into the 20/21 season at the respective venues, we would clearly sell more season and matchday tickets at the Ricoh than St Andrew's, as any survey of the fan base or common sense will tell you. The question is how much, so some back of a fag packet calculations:

We sold 6,850 STs in 2018/19, about 3,000 in 2019/20. Let's assume for argument's sake a 25% increase in ST sales on promotion, that'd be 8,560 at the Ricoh, 3,800 in Birmingham. Assuming an average ST price of £250, we'd get:

£1.7m at Ricoh, £950k at St Andrew's. That alone, would mean we'd need to be paying a good £800k less in rent in Birmingham on that basis before we even look at matchday revenue, commercial income, additional sponsorship etc.

I was going to crunch some more numbers but don't see the need.

Grendel said:

We pay somewhere in the region of £50k a game at St Andrews - there is some additional access to revenues from the catering but even when fans were there it has to be a minimal amount.

we still paid for stewards and I’d assume also policing

it’s not been done as it’s cheap the motive was not cost saving

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Yep, not cost saving, never has been. The terms at St. Andrews were similar to what was on the table for the Ricoh last year. This has been done to death a bit.

Woodingdean_Sky_Blue said:

You have no actual figures and no contracts to make a comparison.

You're a bullshitter.

Thank fuck you were also bullshitting when you said you were going to stand for election to the Trust. The last thing we all need is another uneducated, opinionated, twat like you.

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50k per game is just over £1m per year. Don't think he's a million miles away with that figure.

mark82 said:

50k per game is just over £1m per year. Don't think he's a million miles away with that figure.

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Or even pounds...

Grendel said:

How fascinating - tell you what let’s have a charity bet of £100 to see if it’s gone up or not

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Tell you what, let's not gamble as it is against my religion.

Instead, why don't you produce copies of the contracts you must surely have to back your fantastic claims?

Waiting....

letsallsingtogether said:

Well we were told at the coventry CCFC supporters branch that it was more then £1m and that Vile Park was offered for 500,000 but that the history between the 2 clubs threw that out.
These are not my figures and they came from big Sisu supporters.

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But the figures didn't come from the club and nor did the tale about Villa Park.

People are speculating and that's my point.

letsallsingtogether said:

Stop spreading misinformation then.
Where is your proof of the deal being better then the Ricoh.
If you dont have any do one!

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Sorry you don't understand...

Brighton Sky Blue said:

You've gone off the deep end here fella.

Well let's suppose COVID had never happened, and we had gone on to comfortably secure promotion on the pitch. Going into the 20/21 season at the respective venues, we would clearly sell more season and matchday tickets at the Ricoh than St Andrew's, as any survey of the fan base or common sense will tell you. The question is how much, so some back of a fag packet calculations:

We sold 6,850 STs in 2018/19, about 3,000 in 2019/20. Let's assume for argument's sake a 25% increase in ST sales on promotion, that'd be 8,560 at the Ricoh, 3,800 in Birmingham. Assuming an average ST price of £250, we'd get:

£1.7m at Ricoh, £950k at St Andrew's. That alone, would mean we'd need to be paying a good £800k less in rent in Birmingham on that basis before we even look at matchday revenue, commercial income, additional sponsorship etc.

I was going to crunch some more numbers but don't see the need.

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I really haven't gone off the deep end, I've just pointed out that nobody at our level knows the rental deal details.

I appreciate your 'fag packet calculations', at least you've given some thought to the matter rather than simply plucking a figure from the air and running with it.

The bottom line though is still that we don't know what we pay at St Andrews. The rent at St Andrews might be more than the £800k you alluded to, or it could be less.

Woodingdean_Sky_Blue said:

I really haven't gone off the deep end, I've just pointed out that nobody at our level knows the rental deal details.

I appreciate your 'fag packet calculations', at least you've given some thought to the matter rather than simply plucking a figure from the air and running with it.

The bottom line though is still that we don't know what we pay at St Andrews. The rent at St Andrews might be more than the £800k you alluded to, or it could be less.

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Pretty sure it was confirmed as not a million miles away as Mark says

Woodingdean_Sky_Blue said:

Tell you what, let's not gamble as it is against my religion.

Instead, why don't you produce copies of the contracts you must surely have to back your fantastic claims?

Waiting....

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It’s not a gamble Chris it’s based on the fact that the club paid £535,000 in lease payments in their last year at the Ricoh and that includes the payments to the Higgs academy

Woodingdean_Sky_Blue said:

I really haven't gone off the deep end, I've just pointed out that nobody at our level knows the rental deal details.

I appreciate your 'fag packet calculations', at least you've given some thought to the matter rather than simply plucking a figure from the air and running with it.

The bottom line though is still that we don't know what we pay at St Andrews. The rent at St Andrews might be more than the £800k you alluded to, or it could be less.

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St Andrews would need to be £800k cheaper than the Ricoh even before you factor in match day tickets. There is no comparison.

We are not going to be able to get a better idea of the rent deal at St Andrews until we get to see the 2020 accounts. These may not be seen until late May 2021 however as Companies House have extended filing requirements from 9 months to 12

Even then there is going to be some element of calculated guesswork because there are a number of rental or operating lease contracts and they are not individually identified. What we will know at that point will be the totals paid on operating leases and the notes on financial commitments.

For example the operating leases disclosed in the 2019 SBS&L accounts and in even more detail in the 2019 Otium accounts, showed rents paid in total was £535,831. Notes in the accounts disclose that non cancellable financial commitments due within 1 year dropped by £363k - it is a reasonable assumption is that the fall was mainly made up of the Ricoh rent. Other rents would be Higgs Centre, other training venues, and perhaps the shop depending on the arrangement

These figures give sufficient basis to calculate a reasonable guesstimate of the St Andrews rent when we see the 2020 financials.

Were there other costs involved ? We wont know for certain but if direct costs are similar between the two years then that might indicate that other costs involved at St Andrews in no different way to the Ricoh

On things like the better share of F&B at St Andrews, well depends what is being compared. We may have got a deal at St Andrews that gave us the turnover from our matches but if it did, don't forget 100% of costs & overheads related to that turnover come with it. We may have got a better share of the net profits (at the Ricoh we were told by the participants that they split F&B net profit 50:50 which made CCFC 15% of total turnover. Now they may have got a bigger percentage this time around say 25%. Say on average each attending supporter spent £3 then on 2019/20 attendance average of 6677 that equates to £461k less VAT = £384k say 40% profit margin overall = £154k giving CCFC £96k

Yes it is still guess work but you do not have to calculate to the nearest £ to get a feel for things.

In terms of SISU they really don't have much choice but to act as bank of last resort. They are not doing anything really different to most other clubs. No one has much needed additional turnover or gate money. If they let CCFC fail then they or their clients physically lose millions. at the moment they can say the investors have a hope of recovery however small that hope is. They are not going to be putting millions in, indeed over recent years (subject to seeing 2020 & 2021 accounts) have taken out more than they put in. I suspect the reason we have had funds to spend has been to do more with the player deals done by MR and his backroom team - but you could praise them for letting MR use those funds (like most other football clubs). We still have major problems, and that has been exacerbated by the fact the transfer market (a mainstay of our financial plan) has stalled to some degree during the pandemic. What has been much better has been the communication and PR, started from a very low bar though didn't it, and some of the major parts are for now at least still just words

I think the best thing that SISU are doing is staying quiet, but that is a two edge sword based on history of the relationship

Finally can one of the people having "close ties" to the club remind SBS&L directors that they need to file their confirmation statement

mark82 said:

Yep, not cost saving, never has been. The terms at St. Andrews were similar to what was on the table for the Ricoh last year. This has been done to death a bit.

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Didn’t realise this TBF. Although will take a pinch of salt as “terms” is a very wide range.