So how well SHOULD Thorn be doing? (1 Viewer)

DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe · Feb 24, 2012

What I think people have said (taken out of context in this particular slant on the argument) is that Thorn's performance should be taken in the context of SISU. That it is largely unfair to compare his win ratio to previous managers. That people need to take things in context. With contrary arguments, people argue their side fairly vociferously at times, but it doesn't mean the counter argument to 'Thorn Out' is that 'Thorn is the best manager we've ever had / has never made an error / is untouchable'.

Sick Boy · Feb 24, 2012

I have already stated that I do not blame him for everything, I am just sick of the acceptance of mediocrity amongst certain sections of our supporters and double-standards which have dogged the club for decades.

Sick Boy · Feb 24, 2012

DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe said:
What I think people have said (taken out of context in this particular slant on the argument) is that Thorn's performance should be taken in the context of SISU. That it is largely unfair to compare his win ratio to previous managers. That people need to take things in context. With contrary arguments, people argue their side fairly vociferously at times, but it doesn't mean the counter argument to 'Thorn Out' is that 'Thorn is the best manager we've ever had / has never made an error / is untouchable'.

I think the vociferously is probably deep frustration with the club overall and it is beginning to surface. The fans have been very calm this season all things considered and have been excellent in their support for the team. As relegation becomes a reality those who believe someone could do better than Thorn are bound to get more & more vocal.

dongonzalos · Feb 24, 2012

Nick said:
Argument I was trying to have yesterday. If the squad is shit he is a poor scout, if it is good he is a poor manager! Can't have both

I personally think under achieving and that with the players we have now we shouldn't be where we are.

I would say depth of squad is shit, there is a big difference. Again You can only sign within the limitations put infront of you. Would you really have exected for example that Adam Le Fondre would have been out of our budget. Give Thorn an average Chamionship budget not the least and see if he is good enough.

However saying all of the above personally I fully expected a relegation fight and I am sure every person on here if they are honest with themselves would have expected the same. Take a team that consistently finish just above relagation, half the money it is spending on wages, sell its best players. Allow the manager to make a couple of signings then half way through the season let him make a couple of loans. How exactly in those circumstances are we suddenly going to improve. Unless as I keep saying we have a martin oneil in charge or a neil warnock (at this level) Those managers dont exist.
I am surprised that Thorn said what he said, I wonder if it is what he truely believed. How would the players or SISU have reacted if he said we will be in a relegation fight. I dont see any issue if he admitted that, some would no doubt attack him saying he is negative. Personally I would prefer the honest approach.

When did he say this was it before they sold Juke and Turner or afterwards?

dongonzalos · Feb 24, 2012

DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe said:
Can I make what I would have considered a blindingly obvious point..?

The fans who do not want Thorn to be sacked at this point do not think he is 100% divorced from blame for our current predicament. If there is a single fan on here who believes that Andy Thorn as manager has not been responsible for any errors or dropped points, speak now or forever hold your piece...

It is not that he can do no wrong and it is not that SISU absolve every other party of blame as such. When someone is suggesting Thorn Out and you do not agree, you talk about the positives, the constraints and the shades of grey. For this reason, it may appear to the likes of SickBoy that Thorn can do no wrong with some and is untouchable. This is categorically not the case. We take his actions within the context of SISU. That is all. In much the same way, the Thorn Out lot get accused of finding ammunition in every last detail to add credence to their desire to replace the manager (press conference, loanees who have not made their debut, etc, etc.) . This is for the exact same reason... you are arguing your point and backing it up with reasons. I would imagine also that the vast majority of them do not hold Thorn 100% responsible (i.e. with SISU and the players devoid of blame).

This debate is really taking the edge off this forum for me, which shouldn't be any of your concern. I just wish that both sides could take comments at face value and try to consider both sides.

Now that I have got that off my chest, here is the truth...

We should have picked up more points away.
Thorn makes some tactical failings and questionable substitutions (or lack thereof).
SISU dictate the playing staff through their financial constraints (I categorically believe that Thorn has recently been effectively told to expect a fire sale and I expect SISU to remain in post until the close season at the very least as a result).
EVERYONE is dissatisfied at not getting out of the relegation zone.
The team needs our support.

Whether you want Thorn Out or not, I would actually question how much difference it really makes right now. He is in post. SISU have not completed the 'listen to a fucking word your fans say' mandatory training. We are in the biggest relegation fight in recent memory, with the most limited squad. If he keeps us up, I will applaud him. If he takes us down, I won't blame him exclusively. My opinion... I won't force it on you or give two shits if you disagree. But I am going to vocally support the team and manager from now until the end of the season and think it is a bit of a shame if anyone withholds that just because they are disillusioned with Andy Thorn.

Top comment

DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe · Feb 24, 2012

Sick Boy said:
I think the vociferously is probably deep frustration with the club overall and it is beginning to surface. The fans have been very calm this season all things considered and have been excellent in their support for the team. As relegation becomes a reality those who believe someone could do better than Thorn are bound to get more & more vocal.

Both sides argue their points vociferously on here, nothing wrong with that. I just tire of the same shouts repeatedly doing the rounds, but if I was that bothered I would have stopped passing comment. I don't begrudge anyone their opinion, was just looking for a bit of balance from both parties and an acceptance that we are where we are, Thorn is where he is and the Club needs our support (even if the board do not, the manager may not, and so on and so on).

Just for what it's worth, I am not 'Thorn Out'. But, guess what... I also believe someone could do better than him. I argue his case in the context of SISU and address his decisions (tactical, etc.) as I see them. I have an opinion and see things in my own way, same as any football fan. Players I dislike have to probably work harder for credit than ones I do like. It is the same with the manager, undoubtedly. I would suggest, however, that if SISU sacked Thorn there is a possibility we will do a Wolves, employ no one fast (because no one is as cheap as Thorn's £100k / year) and be relegated by a stretch. No one knows, so it is probably not fair to state that anyone who doesn't want Thorn sacked is damning the Club they support to League 1 (not that you did, but you get the inference generally, I hope). If we go down, I will blame SISU. If we stay up, I will thank Thorn. That is as black and white as I will get on the matter.

dongonzalos · Feb 24, 2012

Sick Boy said:
So SISU are the scapegoat for our dreadful away form?

Are you sure Coleman & Reid are worse managers than Thorn?

In a recent interview with Reid and Coleman they both stated that they were unable to achieve at Coventry due to the actions of the owners. They have been sacked a new manager comes in nothing changes. I am not saying Reid and Coleman are good managers but in their opinion their ability to perform as managers was due to false promises provided by the owners

Otis · Feb 24, 2012

Brighton Sky Blue said:
The majority of City fans I'd say are actually somewhere in the middle-it's the polar opposites that do my, and yours, and everyone else's heads in here. OTT criticism is met by OTT defences-and it only takes one 'Thorn's the worst manager we've ever had' or 'Thorn is a fantastic manager and nobody could do better' to start it all off. Once someone does, the thread's essentially a write-off.

Exactly. The majority of fans are in the middle and they don't think Thorn is doing a great job and they don't think he is shit either. They do think Thorn is partly to blame for our predicament. They do realise his hands are tied. They don't expect miracles. They do think the squad is weak but that the players should be good enough to be making more of a fist of it. They don't make excuses for Thorn everytime something goes wrong and they don't blame him for every defeat.

As always the truth lies somewhere inbetween, but Thorn most certainly has cost us points and is partially to blame for some of our woes. I think the argument should just be how much rather than the 'it isn't his fault at all' tagline.

I never wanted him to be sacked, but can plainly see he is struggling a bit and a bit of of his depth, especially now. Now, not only is he inexperienced as a manager, he also has no experience of a relegation dogfight.

As per usual the truth is never black and white. If we win tomorrow I'm sure people will be giving Thorn a pat on the back on here. If we lose he will get flak and quite rightly too. At the end of the day the buck stops with him.

Otis · Feb 24, 2012

Otis said:
Of course it does, Forest, a case in point last week. Thorn thought we were doing fine and didn't look in any trouble in the first half. All well and good and most certainly true, but we could all see as fans that Forest were there for the taking and we should have gone for the throat from the off.

What we got however was a cautious, keep it tight and retain possession game from the Sky Blues. Now no-one could argue that tactic has served us well in away games can they. No-one could argue that point as the results prove otherwise.

Seems clearly apparent that away from home we are too cautious and try to keep possession and keep it all tight. In view of the fact that pretty much every game away from home this season we have made terrible gaffes at the back that have resulted in goals and defeats, you would have thought we might try and consider having the ball a bit more in the opposition half.

Some games against tough opposition of course you have to keep it tight. Forest was not one of those games though. There were 3 vital points in the offing and they had only scored once in eight homes games. That in turn should have dictated our tactics somewhat and encouraged us to throw a bit more caution to the wind and go on the offensive.

I'm pretty sure that we are all going to look back at that Forest game and say "That was our big chance. Had we won that one then maybe, just maybe we would have stayed up."

Can I also just add that we haven't achieved a single clean sheet away from home all season. Another reason why I am a bit baffled by how we set up our stall last week.

Definitely most of the blame should be aimed towards the players, but all this talk from Thorn about us being comfortable and staying solid and being under no threat, along with the cautiousness that was clearly displayed, just strikes me as a case of us missing a massive opportunity by our trying to keep things tight rather than go for the win.

No clean sheets away all year tells me we need to change our approach. We are conceding and losing goals anyway with us playing cautiously so I can't see how or why we would think an away win is going to just occur all of a sudden. We need to score goals away. You won't score goals if you sit back and defend and simply set out to keep possession all game long. Stats say we let in at least one goal every game away from the Ricoh.

We set our stall that way again against Leshtur and once again we may find we lose 1-0. If not by more.

I know I am obsessed with our away form, but without any points on the road we are definitely down as far as i am concerned.

Moff · Feb 24, 2012

Less than 10 goals away from home = loserville as far as im concerned

Otis · Feb 24, 2012

Moff said:
Less than 10 goals away from home = loserville as far as im concerned

And that's going to continue if we continue being cautious. This fact must have filtered down to the opposition teams and I would offer that teams putting us on the rack for the last 10-15 mins know that it is incredibly unlikely that we will score.

We need to change our approach. Been saying that for weeks now. Personally I would rather see us lose 3-1 or 4-2 than 1 or 2 nil. At least then I will have known that we probably have given it a go.

Nonleagueherewecome · Feb 24, 2012

Nick said:
Argument I was trying to have yesterday. If the squad is shit he is a poor scout, if it is good he is a poor manager! Can't have both

I personally think under achieving and that with the players we have now we shouldn't be where we are.

Not really: the squad is shit because there aren't enough players, not to mention too many lacking experience (none of whom were scouted by Thorn) being relied upon to play every single week (making inconsistency far more likely).

The squad would certainly be stronger if it contained any of Westwood, Aron, Dann, Fox or Lukas. And they were scouted by Thorn.

Sick Boy · Feb 24, 2012

Nonleagueherewecome said:
Dann, Fox they were scouted by Thorn.

I am sure Thorn joined after Coleman took charge.

wingy · Feb 24, 2012

Was'nt there comment at the time that dowie was involved ,no proof just conjecture.

Grendel · Feb 24, 2012

wingy said:
Was'nt there comment at the time that dowie was involved ,no proof just conjecture.

Ranson said they were nothing to do with dowie. My take on that is dowie signed them. Thorn didn't join the club until dowie was sacked so nothing to do with him.

SydneySkyBlue · Feb 24, 2012

Alan Poole, the man on the archives at the CT, doesn't seem to think so.
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/co...ng-rallying-around-andy-thorn-92746-30289728/

"Throw in Scott Dann and Danny Fox, both of whom were recruited during his spell as chief scout and rapidly shipped out at a healthy profit, and it’s hardly surprising that the Sky Blues’ fortunes have waned."

This article seems to suggest Thorn was a Ranson recruit too.
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/co...ventry-city-says-gary-hoffman-92746-29036508/

...which would make sense as Ranson claimed his 'scouts' had dibs on Fox and Dann before he and SISU came to the club.

SydneySkyBlue · Feb 24, 2012

Nice to see more posters on here that are able to see shades of grey!

Grendel · Feb 24, 2012

GinettasStickySofa said:
Alan Poole, the man on the archives at the CT, doesn't seem to think so.
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/co...ng-rallying-around-andy-thorn-92746-30289728/

"Throw in Scott Dann and Danny Fox, both of whom were recruited during his spell as chief scout and rapidly shipped out at a healthy profit, and it’s hardly surprising that the Sky Blues’ fortunes have waned."

This article seems to suggest Thorn was a Ranson recruit too.
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/co...ventry-city-says-gary-hoffman-92746-29036508/

...which would make sense as Ranson claimed his 'scouts' had dibs on Fox and Dann before he and SISU came to the club.

Thorn was definitely recruited by Ranson. No doubt there. Surprised you seem to see that as a positive along with Coleman, Boothroyd etc.

dongonzalos · Feb 24, 2012

GinettasStickySofa said:
Alan Poole, the man on the archives at the CT, doesn't seem to think so.
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/co...ng-rallying-around-andy-thorn-92746-30289728/

"Throw in Scott Dann and Danny Fox, both of whom were recruited during his spell as chief scout and rapidly shipped out at a healthy profit, and it’s hardly surprising that the Sky Blues’ fortunes have waned."

This article seems to suggest Thorn was a Ranson recruit too.
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/co...ventry-city-says-gary-hoffman-92746-29036508/

...which would make sense as Ranson claimed his 'scouts' had dibs on Fox and Dann before he and SISU came to the club.

Interesting reading

Grendel · Feb 24, 2012

dongonzalos said:
Interesting reading

Other than Alan Poole is the journalist....

rob9872 · Feb 24, 2012

Can we just put this to bed now? He isn't going to be sacked at this stage of the season. Who could we realistically get that will make a difference? Like him or loathe him we are stuck with eachother so please support him and the lads from now to the end of the season.

For those who point out how our form differs from home to away, can I point out that historically teams win twice as many home games as away. That means we would expect to have won 3 games. There is a thing over the short term called variance which can be luck affected. Over the long term that does tend to be more even, but when you consider how recent 4 of those wins have come at home, when you take into account conficence palying at home v away, particularly when away teams know we won't roll over at home and will set up diferently at home v away and when you have a monkey on your back because everyone points out your away record at every opportunity so players becoame nervous if leading in the closing stages (like Blackpool) then its easy to see why there is a difference. Forest last week was shocking, but that is not indicative of recent performances imo. Please stop being so negative some of you.

It is clear that with young players especially how quicly that can transfer onto the pitch. If you want this club to survive in this league, then whatever you feel about the players. the owners or the management, now is the time to unite behind them. We need all of us pulling together because that goal or that point may be the difference between that line which divides success and failure - PUSB!

Grendel · Feb 24, 2012

rob9872 said:
Can we just put this to bed now? He isn't going to be sacked at this stage of the season. Who could we realistically get that will make a difference? Like him or loathe him we are stuck with eachother so please support him and the lads from now to the end of the season.

For those who point out how our form differs from home to away, can I point out that historically teams win twice as many home games as away. That means we would expect to have won 3 games. There is a thing over the short term called variance which can be luck affected. Over the long term that does tend to be more even, but when you consider how recent 4 of those wins have come at home, when you take into account conficence palying at home v away, particularly when away teams know we won't roll over at home and will set up diferently at home v away and when you have a monkey on your back because everyone points out your away record at every opportunity so players becoame nervous if leading in the closing stages (like Blackpool) then its easy to see why there is a difference. Forest last week was shocking, but that is not indicative of recent performances imo. Please stop being so negative some of you.

It is clear that with young players especially how quicly that can transfer onto the pitch. If you want this club to survive in this league, then whatever you feel about the players. the owners or the management, now is the time to unite behind them. We need all of us pulling together because that goal or that point may be the difference between that line which divides success and failure - PUSB!

I agree with most of that but to say the sacking would make no difference ignores very recent history, it made a difference last season with 10 games to go.

SydneySkyBlue · Feb 24, 2012

That's the thing Rob, the way some are acting on here you'd think he'd lost the dressing room and we don't know where our next win will come from.

If you're in a relegation battle and the team are still playing for you then why risk throwing that away?

Grendel · Feb 24, 2012

GinettasStickySofa said:
That's the thing Rob, the way some are acting on here you'd think he'd lost the dressing room and we don't know where our next win will come from.

If you're in a relegation battle and the team are still playing for you then why risk throwing that away?

Playing for him? Do you just ignore the away record since his joining the club. Is Thorn travel sick and cannot attend these games?!!

rob9872 · Feb 24, 2012

kduffy said:
I agree with most of that but to say the sacking would make no difference ignores very recent history, it made a difference last season with 10 games to go.

But that hasn't answered the question of who would realistically make adifference that would come and what are you basing that on? When AB was sacked we were on an 18 game winless run and he had funds to spend. Thorn is far from perfect but he isn't going to be sacked (at least not until we are mathematically down) whether you think he should or not so we need to support him.

Grendel · Feb 24, 2012

rob9872 said:
But that hasn't answered the question of who would realistically make adifference that would come and what are you basing that on? When AB was sacked we were on an 18 game winless run and he had funds to spend. Thorn is far from perfect but he isn't going to be sacked (at least not until we are mathematically down) whether you think he should or not so we need to support him.

Boothroyd had no funds to spend there was a transfer embargo from January. He had academy players on the bench that month. No he isn't going to be sacked but that doesn't mean many cannot express their frustration at this apathy the club has taken towards his obvious inability to do the job.

rob9872 · Feb 24, 2012

He was the wrong man. He was always the wrong man, but he was the man we could afford who would be prepared to put up with the rug pulled from under him who was raw and had no experience. He was the cheap option. He is a better manager than at the start of this I am certain. He is not a bright guy as his interviews often confirm, but he tries to play the right way (I will avoid entertaining because it often isn't), he has the players (imo) working for him. To compare with AB who had awful footballing style, was experienced and wouldn't get any better, played a direct game without pace on the wings is unfair imo. It is also unfair to suggest they had teh same budget. AB had money to spend not only on signings but a much greater budget for wages. Thorn may or may not be useless but he has certainly been shafted and I'm sure if he thought he would ever be offered another opportunity in the short term, then he would have walked away from the mess that he may be partially culpable for but certainly didn't create.

dongonzalos · Feb 24, 2012

kduffy said:
Boothroyd had no funds to spend there was a transfer embargo from January. He had academy players on the bench that month. No he isn't going to be sacked but that doesn't mean many cannot express their frustration at this apathy the club has taken towards his obvious inability to do the job.

Ha ha this is why I feel that sacking managers is stupid sound familiar .............

Feb 11th 2011

Last week Coventry City manager Aidy Boothroyd said he could do with bringing in one or two loan signing to boost his injury depleted squad, but that now looks as if it might not happen.
With the emergency loan window now open, Boothroyd has revealed that at the moment it is unlikely that he will sign any new players.
He explained to the CT: "It is never that simple and it is no use going off and getting players similar to what we have got. We want to get players who are as good or better and the availability has got to be there and that's not always the case."
"So sometimes it is better to battle on with what you have got, so that's what we will do and try to get our best players back fit."

SydneySkyBlue · Feb 24, 2012

kduffy said:
Playing for him? Do you just ignore the away record since his joining the club. Is Thorn travel sick and cannot attend these games?!!

If they've stopped playing for him then perhaps you'd like to explain our home form. Do you just ignore that?

SydneySkyBlue · Feb 24, 2012

dongonzalos said:
Ha ha this is why I feel that sacking managers is stupid sound familiar .............

Feb 11th 2011

Last week Coventry City manager Aidy Boothroyd said he could do with bringing in one or two loan signing to boost his injury depleted squad, but that now looks as if it might not happen.
With the emergency loan window now open, Boothroyd has revealed that at the moment it is unlikely that he will sign any new players.
He explained to the CT: "It is never that simple and it is no use going off and getting players similar to what we have got. We want to get players who are as good or better and the availability has got to be there and that's not always the case."
"So sometimes it is better to battle on with what you have got, so that's what we will do and try to get our best players back fit."

It's a running theme at our club that seems remarkably to have gone unnoticed.

Grendel · Feb 24, 2012

GinettasStickySofa said:
If they've stopped playing for him then perhaps you'd like to explain our home form. Do you just ignore that?

What over the whole season?

Grendel · Feb 24, 2012

GinettasStickySofa said:
If they've stopped playing for him then perhaps you'd like to explain our home form. Do you just ignore that?

Actually if "playing for him" equates to wins can you please advise when this will actually START on our travels?

SydneySkyBlue · Feb 24, 2012

So unless a team wins all matches home and away then the manager has lost the dressing room?

SydneySkyBlue · Feb 24, 2012

No you're right, we should be taking the league by storm with our riches.

Grendel · Feb 24, 2012

GinettasStickySofa said:
So unless a team wins all matches home and away then the manager has lost the dressing room?

No I think the cliche is nonsense to be honest but if a team has the worst way record in Britain it hardly justifies a comment at all really does it? Tactics win matches not a great big love in.

So how well SHOULD Thorn be doing? (1 Viewer)

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