shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I don’t get this idea that CCC are bossing Wasps around at all. Why would they let them? It’s perfectly possible for it to be in Wasps interests.
We really need someone to ask the question of CCC.
That's possibly true. In the workplace and elsewhere you often see people taking actions that they know their boss wants even though he hasn't ordered it. If it goes wrong the boss can say " i didn't tell him/her to do it". No, but everyone knows that's what he wanted
Yeah but why? I’m not doubting they appear to have done some odd things but why?Don't forget they tried to force through an ACL / Wasps takeover of the football club too.
I illustrated a point,. I'm not saying CCC were bossing Wasps around but Wasps might have thought it was in their interests to do what they thought CCC might want.I don’t get this idea that CCC are bossing Wasps around at all. Why would they let them? It’s perfectly possible for it to be in Wasps interests.
We really need someone to ask the question of CCC.
Why the need for PR then? Bringing money into the city is PR in itself. Why try to turn fans against SISU? If wasps bring these benefits there’s no need to justify their actions. It might just be they wanted public opinion on their side but as half the city doesn’t care about the club and most that do probably don’t vote it just feels a bit thin.What justifies their actions pre-SISU?
Maybe it was the Wasps promise of this amazing new training facility and all these jobs that sucked them in. Maybe it was the thought of a packed out Ricoh full of Wasps fans and fireworks while they get their freebies in Corporate? What about all the houses their owner was talking about building?
I illustrated a point,. I'm not saying CCC were bossing Wasps around but Wasps might have thought it was in their interests to do what they thought CCC might want.
You’ve also got to consider that since Sisu CCFC have been quite anti council. See aligning with council critics from the start, and apparently Fisher calling them “a bunch of communists” when asked if he’d talk to them I heard yesterday.
CCC just want an easy life. They probably wanted Wasps in because it is a good thing if you take out the impact on CCFC for a second and don’t have strong feelings about franchises. Economically it’s a positive for the city really. They also don’t want to lose the Ricoh to a party they don’t trust.
I mean look, I know for a cast iron fact that while my Dad was leading the council they weren’t anti CCFC, because I was there and I know my Dads a massive CCFC fan (that’s why I am, he got me into them), I know other councillors such as Maton are big, genuine CCFC fans. I don’t know about every single council leader or councillor, but I find it hard to believe they’d actively hate the club and wish it harm. Most are either ambivalent or actively support CCFC.
CCFCs ace in the hole has always been the ability to razzle dazzle locals. Am I naive enough to think my first game being taken into the dressing room and getting signed programs and seeing Oggy in the bath happened for any other reason than the club wanted to curry favour with the council? No not at all.
So for things to have got to this point all sides must have made some pretty major missteps. And let’s be honest, until Robins arrived Sisu were generally seen by all CCFC fans as pretty shitty owners.
Why the need for PR then? Bringing money into the city is PR in itself. Why try to turn fans against SISU? If wasps bring these benefits there’s no need to justify their actions. It might just be they wanted public opinion on their side but as half the city doesn’t care about the club and most that do probably don’t vote it just feels a bit thin.
The big PR job was before Wasps.
When you look at it on the timeline, you could say that as CCC already knew about Wasps way before Sixfields that a juicy PR hatchet job made everybody hate SISU and the backlash against Wasps coming in was minimal. Everybody hated SISU so they saw Wasps as allies, see the Trust for a perfect example of this. Wasps were riding on the wave of the Weber Shandwick stuff and people fell for it. If in doubt "It was SISU".
The PR job meant they could get away with lots of shit and how Duggins could smugly gloat about public perception.
I would like to know what the opposition think to all this?? Eg Cllr Ridley & co. They have in the past supported the councils stance against SISU but is this now a different agenda? Maybe the Tory’s need to be pushing Labour for an answer and as representatives to you and the City, it should be a no brainier. OR if they got into power, they would have the same cloud hanging over their head!!! So might be why they have not challenged anything YET??
It’s worth somebody asking for their thoughts. It’s also well worth (as somebody did) contacting local MPs and getting them to ask questions of the council.I would like to know what the opposition think to all this?? Eg Cllr Ridley & co. They have in the past supported the councils stance against SISU but is this now a different agenda? Maybe the Tory’s need to be pushing Labour for an answer and as representatives to you and the City, it should be a no brainier. OR if they got into power, they would have the same cloud hanging over their head!!! So might be why they have not challenged anything YET??
That still doesn't explain CCC's attitude to CCFC before SISU though does it? It's all well and good saying "Tim Fisher said a nasty" but CCC were being cunts to CCFC even before anybody knew who Tim Fisher was so it doesn't stack up.
How has it worked out for the local economy and the Ricoh? We heard the council shouting about SISU would just mortgage against the Ricoh and burden it with debt? Wasps have done exactly what CCC publicly said SISU would do and why they were against SISU owning it.
How much of the public perception is down to the expensive PR campaign? Of course SISU are not goodies and have not been right about everything but how much of the Weber Shandwick stuff did exactly as intended?
I guess what I am saying Nick is I think they would have gotten away with that shit anyway, why the effort to spin it and hide things. Maybe it is as simple as trying to smooth things out and I’m over thinking it.
But who was being cunts? Honest question again I’m not as into this as you? And why does someone who isn’t there any more being cunts matter today?
That’s my point. I bring my Dad up (not particularly willingly as you know) because that’s not rumour or a one sided account from someone trying to sell a book, that’s my lived experienced. So I know, for a fact, there was a point where relations between CCC and CCFC were positive.
So just saying “oh CCC are cunts and always have been” doesn’t really help shed any light. Who is a c**t? How were they a c**t? Why were they cunts? Are they still being cunty?
It’s a thought terminating cliche that doesn’t get us anywhere.
And I mention the Fisher comment not because he “did a nasty” but because it was his reply when a olive branch was offered. It shows that for him he was letting his personal politics cloud his judgement. Going to Les Reid shows that. Going to Nikki whatsherface shows that. Sisu have consistently been anti council, not surprising a hedge fund doesn’t like left wing government. But their lack of understanding and seemingly political beliefs have meant some major missteps for the club.
You saying “oh they just hate us and always have” is not only demonstrably untrue and frankly a childish way of understanding competing motivations. Your theory that a bunch of people that on average are avid CCFC fans just hate CCFC makes no sense at all. So let’s look at another theory.
There is a difference between CCC being ambivalent at best, and them actively working against the club, however.That still doesn't explain CCC's attitude to CCFC before SISU though does it? It's all well and good saying "Tim Fisher said a nasty" but CCC were being cunts to CCFC even before anybody knew who Tim Fisher was so it doesn't stack up.
How has it worked out for the local economy and the Ricoh? We heard the council shouting about SISU would just mortgage against the Ricoh and burden it with debt? Wasps have done exactly what CCC publicly said SISU would do and why they were against SISU owning it.
How much of the public perception is down to the expensive PR campaign? Of course SISU are not goodies and have not been right about everything but how much of the Weber Shandwick stuff did exactly as intended?
I would like to know what the opposition think to all this?? Eg Cllr Ridley & co. They have in the past supported the councils stance against SISU but is this now a different agenda? Maybe the Tory’s need to be pushing Labour for an answer and as representatives to you and the City, it should be a no brainier. OR if they got into power, they would have the same cloud hanging over their head!!! So might be why they have not challenged anything YET??
But who was being cunts? Honest question again I’m not as into this as you? And why does someone who isn’t there any more being cunts matter today?
That’s my point. I bring my Dad up (not particularly willingly as you know) because that’s not rumour or a one sided account from someone trying to sell a book, that’s my lived experienced. So I know, for a fact, there was a point where relations between CCC and CCFC were positive.
So just saying “oh CCC are cunts and always have been” doesn’t really help shed any light. Who is a c**t? How were they a c**t? Why were they cunts? Are they still being cunty?
It’s a thought terminating cliche that doesn’t get us anywhere.
And I mention the Fisher comment not because he “did a nasty” but because it was his reply when a olive branch was offered. It shows that for him he was letting his personal politics cloud his judgement. Going to Les Reid shows that. Going to Nikki whatsherface shows that. Sisu have consistently been anti council, not surprising a hedge fund doesn’t like left wing government. But their lack of understanding and seemingly political beliefs have meant some major missteps for the club.
You saying “oh they just hate us and always have” is not only demonstrably untrue and frankly a childish way of understanding competing motivations. Your theory that a bunch of people that on average are avid CCFC fans just hate CCFC makes no sense at all. So let’s look at another theory.
There is a difference between CCC being ambivalent at best, and them actively working against the club, however.
Now, if we do indeed go backwards, it was ultimately Dave Nellist who iniststed that any Ricoh deal involved commitments to regeneration of the surrounding area, before he signed up to it (the Ricoh deal was campaigned for by the club btw, McGinnity was very forward in being proactive in encouraging that deal to be made, to divest the club of their responsibilities to build it) and that has, arguably, handicapped the stadium being seen as just a sports stadium from that point on.
When we come to ACL, we should probably target national government rather than local government. Local government has been made to pay its way more and more, both in commercially justifying their actions, and in having funding withdrawn. As far as I am aware, CCC is not one of the better off councils and doesn't have the cash to throw around. Therefore, any deal (and remember, the club pushed for the deal) would have to make it pay its way.
At that stage, we get this horrible crunch, where the interests of ACL don't marry the interests of CCFC. That's still kept in check while CCFC owned half of ACL but... that didn't last long!
So it's certainly not working against the club to begin with (the directors did a fine job in that by themselves!), but it does end up financially straightjacketed. Elements such as stadium branding etc. yes, I would argue we have an intransigent council, but McGinnity had taken all the stuff about the cup winners down at Highfield Road - they weren't alone in being shit in realising the emotional connection of the club.
Fast forward to SISU, and it seems relations were actually OK between most parties involved. The personal stuff seemed to be agitated by Seppala and Mutton seemingly not getting on, and having vastly differing perspectives. It must have been very hard for Seppala, a ruthless businesswoman who makes decisions swiftly, to understand a council that drags its feet as much through following the process it has to follow. Likewise, Mutton's comments about SISU were deeply unhelpful, and they badly needed some empathy about how, ultimately, SISU were a business who didn't need to have that emotional connection of fan and then yes, things broke down, seemingly irrevocably.
To get where we ended up, where every single member of the council voted for the Wasps deal, regardless of party allegiance, is... unprecedented (to borrow a Covid trendy word!) really. usually you have one or two rogues who see either an opporunity to make a name on being different, or because they can get something for themselves and / or their ward. That's not really a council conspiracy, and *something* in that deal made it important to be passed. i'd assume the main thing is transferring risk onto Wasps, rather than the council, tbh, and allowing CCC therefore to budget with less constraints.
It's safe to say (as, well, it's been for the past half a dozen years plus) that none of the parties cover themselves in glory with their attitude. Current events don't change that really, they just continue along the same lines...
Relationships probably soured in 2005 when we said we couldn’t afford the rent and the council stuck 2 fingers up to our request
probably find out that like the original sale meeting it's not available to the publicThis is where somebody needs to do some digging and find out what the people voting were told in the no minutes, NDA meeting to make them all agree.
We have already seen that it was a condition about CCFC not being damaged and how Duggins laughed that off.
It's alright saying Tim Fisher said something nasty and hated the council, look at how actual Council Leaders have behaved. That goes for Mutton, Lucas and Duggins. Does Tim Fisher being a smarmy c**t give a council leader the excuse to be?
You’re quite possibly right. But that was different owners. Relationship with Sisu started OK IIRC. Also, that was the point to start getting your ducks in a row for an alternative. As I e said repeatedly the rent was almost certainly too high especially after we dropped to L1, but the strategy for fixing that has been an absolute clusterfuck
Weren't SISU the council's preferred option and they basically nixed the 2 other potential buyers (the American one and another)?You’re quite possibly right. But that was different owners. Relationship with Sisu started OK IIRC. Also, that was the point to start getting your ducks in a row for an alternative. As I e said repeatedly the rent was almost certainly too high especially after we dropped to L1, but the strategy for fixing that has been an absolute clusterfuck
probably find out that like the original sale meeting it's not available to the public
Maybe Wasps already have an indemnity with CCC to benefit Wasps. We've thought all along that Wasps were naive if they didn't think SISU were the litigious type. Would explain why CCC want the indemnity clause if they'd have to pay Wasps?So unraveling this means that after State Aid thingy Wasps give council mega bucks and go out of business which leaves CCC with a white elephant but 54m in the bank.
SISU/CCFC are unaffected.
The bit I don’t understand is that why have WASPS withdrawn the indemnity clause when they stand to lose the most.
And why have CCC insisting on it when (according to you) they really don’t stand to lose much at all?
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So Tim Fisher's personal politics clouded his judgement but when you have Mutton / Lucas clearly having clouded judgements that's OK?
Go to the Fletcher thread, he gives examples of the Council working against CCFC in his time with both ACL and CCFC. That was pre-SISU so it shows "They hated Fisher" isn't an excuse for them.
You are indirectly doing what I am talking about, you are effectively saying "It was SISU" for the reasoning of the council being against CCFC. It wasn't, it was going on before they were even here.
You are far too quick to write things off that are there in black and white as a conspiracy.
I think this is where Ranson becomes an issue. Sisu never wanted a football club they just wanted the quick profit he promised, they gave him the cash and he wasn’t bothered about sorting the arena as he wanted to play football club. When he fucked off and sisu were left with something they didn’t want and had no idea how to run they looked at our outgoings, saw the rent was killing us, tried to renegotiate and that’s when the relationship between the two of them soured.You’re quite possibly right. But that was different owners. Relationship with Sisu started OK IIRC. Also, that was the point to start getting your ducks in a row for an alternative. As I e said repeatedly the rent was almost certainly too high especially after we dropped to L1, but the strategy for fixing that has been an absolute clusterfuck
You haven’t seen anything yetFuckinell...HELP
IM DROWNING IN DAMAGE LIMITATION
I think this is where Ranson becomes an issue. Sisu never wanted a football club they just wanted the quick profit he promised, they gave him the cash and he wasn’t bothered about sorting the arena as he wanted to play football club. When he fucked off and sisu were left with something they didn’t want and had no idea how to run they looked at our outgoings, saw the rent was killing us, tried to renegotiate and that’s when the relationship between the two of them soured.
This is where somebody needs to do some digging and find out what the people voting were told in the no minutes, NDA meeting to make them all agree
Great email. I hope that all of the local MPs get involved and start to put pressure on CCC.i dont whether I've done the right thing but as supporter of CCFC for 50 +years but not a resident of Coventry in any of that time I have sent a short letter to all of the local MP's
i attach the same below
Feel Free to criticise
Dear Member of Parliament
Coventry City Council and Wasps Rugby Club
You may well know about the situation with Coventry City FC being forced to play their home games in Birmingham. There appears to be a lot of underlying misinformation and misleading information as to why this is case.
Having heard a report on local radio CWR which you may now be aware of, it appears that the main problem with the refusal of wasps to allow CCFC to play games in the city that bears their name is due to the fact that the local authority appear to insist on CCFC signing an indemnity against damages which may occur following the complaint to the EU about state aid for the sale of the Ricoh Arena to wasps.
Is it right that the local authority should impose this condition on its football club which bears it’s name
Can questions be asked about the validity of the indemnity.
In my simplistic way of thinking two questions come to mind:
Does Coventry City council think it has broken state aid rules or done anything wrong or illegal in the sale of the Ricoh Arena to Wasps
If the answer is No why do they need an indemnity
If the answer is yes, they think they might have done something illegal or wrong then why should CCFC pay for that mistake.
I am writing to you all as local MPs because this situation cannot be allowed to continue just to protect Coventry City Council
There is great deal more to this than I know but is it right that 10s of thousands of people in Coventry and Warwickshire are losing out on their support and love of the local football team at the whim of the local authority and an erstwhile London Rugby Club
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