So what do you get for £6.5 million? (9 Viewers)

Grendel · May 4, 2014

I've asked a few times but if CCFC purchase the share what do they get?

Food revenues - do they get these revenues? I thought that ACL own only a percentage and compass the rest. Do they just get half of less than 50%

Do they get half the revenue from all non football related events?

Will they have equal say with the council on future policy decisions?

Will they take on and be responsible for half of the outstanding mortgage?

spider_ricoh · May 4, 2014

No idea, probably not really "yes" to any of those.

What's why I have constantly said we should go back on a rent-only deal. All these "matchday revenues" and "arena management" issues are nothing to do with the club, it doesn't hurt us not to have these. What does hurt us, is not having 10k+ for home games in League 1. That is the biggest difference between success and failure.

Grendel · May 4, 2014

spider_ricoh said:
No idea, probably not really "yes" to any of those.

What's why I have constantly said we should go back on a rent-only deal. All these "matchday revenues" and "arena management" issues are nothing to do with the club, it doesn't hurt us not to have these. What does hurt us, is not having 10k+ for home games in League 1. That is the biggest difference between success and failure.

But the share we are told is worth £6.5 million. For that there must be some benefits - what?

skybluetony176 · May 4, 2014

Probably at least half of what we would get for the speculated £40m cost of building the stadium of Joy. Sounds like a good deal when you put it like that. Shame they didn't cough up £5.5m when they had the opportunity. The thing you can't put a price on is that the ricoh is in Coventry. The stadium of Joy on the other hand? *

ccfc92 · May 4, 2014

Grendel said:
But the share we are told is worth £6.5 million. For that there must be some benefits - what?

conferencing, the hotel, the jaguar hall exhibitions maybe?

It would be nice to find out how much revenue the Ricoh actually generates without CCFC, then we can ask is it worth having to pay £6.5 million?

skybluetony176 · May 4, 2014

Grendel said:
But the share we are told is worth £6.5 million. For that there must be some benefits - what?

Aside from playing in Coventry you mean. Out of interest how much do you estimate the club has lost in revenue at suxfields this season?

Grendel · May 4, 2014

skybluetony176 said:
Probably at least half of what we would get for the speculated £40m cost of building the stadium of Joy. Sounds like a good deal when you put it like that. Shame they didn't cough up £5.5m when they had the opportunity. The thing you can't put a price on is that the ricoh is in Coventry. The stadium of Joy on the other hand? *

Tony with respect that hasn't answered any of my questions.

Do you know any of the answers?

Grendel · May 4, 2014

skybluetony176 said:
Aside from playing in Coventry you mean. Out of interest how much do you estimate the club has lost in revenue at suxfields this season?

So you is think the club should be held to hostage and pay £6.5 million just for the privelege of playing in Coventry.

Jesus Christ.

Philosoraptor · May 4, 2014

Grendel said:
I've asked a few times but if CCFC purchase the share what do they get?

Food revenues - do they get these revenues? I thought that ACL own only a percentage and compass the rest. Do they just get half of less than 50%

Do they get half the revenue from all non football related events?

Will they have equal say with the council on future policy decisions?

Will they take on and be responsible for half of the outstanding mortgage?

Its an interesting question Grendel. Does it give you access to the land around the stadium for development as well?

ccfc92 · May 4, 2014

Grendel said:
So you is think the club should be held to hostage and pay £6.5 million just for the privelege of playing in Coventry.

Jesus Christ.

is the 6.5 million for ACL's share? what was Higgs share worth again?

Grendel · May 4, 2014

ccfc92 said:
is the 6.5 million for ACL's share? what was Higgs share worth again?

Higgs share is £6.5 million - its a sizeable investment - what do you get?

ccfc92 · May 4, 2014

Grendel said:
Higgs share is £6.5 million - its a sizeable investment - what do you get?

ah cheers.

to put it politely, feck all surely?

skybluetony176 · May 4, 2014

Grendel said:
Tony with respect that hasn't answered any of my questions.

Do you know any of the answers?

With respect. As sisu are reluctant to tell us exactly or even roughly what benefits playing at a sisu owned stadium will have for the club how is anyone supposed to know? I think my answer is as best as you're going to get.

If sisu purchase the higgs half share I would expect us to get half of the benefit sisu would allow us to have at a sisu 100% owned stadium. That's as much detail as anyone possible could give you until our owners are kind enough to tell us exactly what sisu ownership means for the club. Not a difficult task you would think.

The only measurable bonus is the fact that we'll be playing home games at home.

skybluetony176 · May 4, 2014

Grendel said:
So you is think the club should be held to hostage and pay £6.5 million just for the privelege of playing in Coventry.

Jesus Christ.

Aside from the fact that a deal was on the table for £5.5m you seem to have diverted away from the question about losses incurred eacg season we're at suxfields.

ccfc92 · May 4, 2014

skybluetony176 said:
With respect. As sisu are reluctant to tell us exactly or even roughly what benefits playing at a sisu owned stadium will have for the club how is anyone supposed to know? I think my answer is as best as you're going to get.

If sisu purchase the higgs half share I would expect us to get half of the benefit sisu would allow us to have at a sisu 100% owned stadium. That's as much detail as anyone possible could give you until our owners are kind enough to tell us exactly what sisu ownership means for the club. Not a difficult task you would think.

The only measurable bonus is the fact that we'll be playing home games at home.

Whilst I know what your saying, I think he's just talking about the Ricoh, and the benefits. No "sisu's superbowl".

To be fair IMO, the higgs share doesn't have much revenues in it. as a charity, they are by law, not meant to be a profit making company, so I imagine ACL pay back Higgs investment and not much else.

Maybe someone with more facts can speculate for us?

Terry Gibson's perm · May 4, 2014

I have no idea to the answers on any of the questions but I am am pretty sure CCFC won't be buying it will be one of the Sisu companies and then leased/rented back to CCFC, if I really thought that the owners would be CCFC and could only remain as CCFC and not be saddled with any debts or mortgaged in any way I would be happy to let them have the whole lot as that would benefit the team and really at the end of it all that is what matters not Sisu investors.

Philosoraptor · May 4, 2014

I think keeping the cost of the share and the charity out of the thread and work out what you get if you become a partner in ACL would be quite an interesting thread.

Kingokings204 · May 4, 2014

I don't know the answer to your question and doubt anyone on here would but the club doesn't need to buy this. Renting is fine if it is cheap/reasonable and access the match day revenues.

It's what 90% of clubs do

Astute · May 4, 2014

Grendel said:
So you is think the club should be held to hostage

So you is think the club should be held to hostage by playing in Northampton whilst Joy tries to get the Ricoh for her investors on the cheap?

No our club shouldn't be held to hostage by Joy. And we shouldn't try to blame everyone but SISU for us being there.

skybluetony176 · May 4, 2014

ccfc92 said:
Whilst I know what your saying, I think he's just talking about the Ricoh, and the benefits. No "sisu's superbowl".

To be fair IMO, the higgs share doesn't have much revenues in it. as a charity, they are by law, not meant to be a profit making company, so I imagine ACL pay back Higgs investment and not much else.

Maybe someone with more facts can speculate for us?

I thought all profits made at the ricoh are being reinvested back into the ricoh. So neither CCC or Higgs are pocketing any profit? Obviously that would all change once sisu get involved, should that ever happen.

ccfc92 · May 4, 2014

Terry Gibson's perm said:
I have no idea to the answers on any of the questions but I am am pretty sure CCFC won't be buying it will be one of the Sisu companies and then leased/rented back to CCFC, if I really thought that the owners would be CCFC and could only remain as CCFC and not be saddled with any debts or mortgaged in any way I would be happy to let them have the whole lot as that would benefit the team and really at the end of it all that is what matters not Sisu investors.

many would say this is a paranoid opinion of sisu, but it's a relevant concern imagine being a businessman/woman, and having a company to sink all debts into with the only consequence being the football club goes out of business? I'm sure most would be tempted.

but on the flip side, let's hope sisu ARE looking to make CCFC and the Ricoh a successful project and are just going about things the wrong way ATM

chiefdave · May 4, 2014

Grendel said:
I've asked a few times but if CCFC purchase the share what do they get?

Food revenues - do they get these revenues? I thought that ACL own only a percentage and compass the rest. Do they just get half of less than 50%

Do they get half the revenue from all non football related events?

Will they have equal say with the council on future policy decisions?

Will they take on and be responsible for half of the outstanding mortgage?

On the basis that we get back what was in the share we sold to Higgs then the club would get:

50% of all non matchday revenues (or at least the share ACL receives as part of the joint venture which is just under 80% I think)

100% of all matchday revenues (as above)

50% stake in ACL so you would assume equal say of future policy decisions. It would be a lot easier for the club to obtain the type of deal they want if they had a 50% stake in the company that deal was being made with

50% liability on outstanding mortgage. No idea how the security of the mortgage is setup so not sure what happens if ACL were to go bust. Would the club become liable? I would think it most likely the lease would revert to the council.

martcov · May 4, 2014

One big plus would be reducing the number of parties in the dispute. CCC and SISU would be working together and sharing revenue. It would be easier to deal with any potential CCFC rental agreement if SISUwere getting half of the Rent back as a 50 50 Partner in ACL.

Terry Gibson's perm · May 4, 2014

ccfc92 said:
many would say this is a paranoid opinion of sisu, but it's a relevant concern imagine being a businessman/woman, and having a company to sink all debts into with the only consequence being the football club goes out of business? I'm sure most would be tempted.

but on the flip side, let's hope sisu ARE looking to make CCFC and the Ricoh a successful project and are just going about things the wrong way ATM

Would you trust them with it?

skybluetony176 · May 4, 2014

chiefdave said:
On the basis that we get back what was in the share we sold to Higgs then the club would get:

50% of all non matchday revenues (or at least the share ACL receives as part of the joint venture which is just under 80% I think)

100% of all matchday revenues (as above)

50% stake in ACL so you would assume equal say of future policy decisions. It would be a lot easy for the club to obtain the type of deal they want if they had a 50% stake in the company that deal was being made with

50% liability on outstanding mortgage. No idea how the security of the mortgage is setup so not sure what happens if ACL were to go bust. Would the club become liable? I would think it most likely the lease would revert to the council.

That would seem the most obvious scenario of what a sisu owned company would get. What's not clear is, is that company going to be either otium or SBS&L or (as I think was suggested by TF himself) another sisu company not connected to the club. If the latter surely it would be prudent to seek reassurances from sisu of what this would mean for the club otherwise the club could have been better off under the original rental deal at the ricoh, who knows.

chiefdave · May 4, 2014

skybluetony176 said:
That would seem the most obvious scenario of what a sisu owned company would get. What's not clear is, is that company going to be either otium or SBS&L or (as I think was suggested by TF himself) another sisu company not connected to the club. If the latter surely it would be prudent to seek reassurances from sisu of what this would mean for the club otherwise the club could have been better off under the original rental deal at the ricoh, who knows.

You would want ownership under the same holding company as the football club but it doesn't necessarily have to be owned directly by the club. There are legitimate company structures where they club don't directly own the stake in ACL but get all the benefit from it.

skybluetony176 · May 4, 2014

chiefdave said:
You would want ownership under the same holding company as the football club but it doesn't necessarily have to be owned directly by the club. There are legitimate company structures where they club don't directly own the stake in ACL but get all the benefit from it.

I understand that. What none of us know is that going to be the situation?

Perhaps someone could push ML on this next time they have a meeting with them.

If we're walking the club into something let's do that with our eyes open. With the greatest of respect to Rob we're still sleep walking at the moment.

ccfc92 · May 4, 2014

skybluetony176 said:
I thought all profits made at the ricoh are being reinvested back into the ricoh. So neither CCC or Higgs are pocketing any profit? Obviously that would all change once sisu get involved, should that ever happen.

I'm not sure, this is the problem. It's all a web of ifs, buts and maybes. None of us have a Law degree, and even those with an understanding of business are struggling to make the figures work for either "side"

I was talking to an accountant who's a friend, and she couldn't get her head around what's going on at CCFC atm, but the circumstances are a different story to this thread.

ccfc92 · May 4, 2014

Terry Gibson's perm said:
Would you trust them with it?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the only way it would work is if there's contracts binding SISU to use the Ricoh to primarily help CCFC.

ccfc92 · May 4, 2014

martcov said:
One big plus would be reducing the number of parties in the dispute. CCC and SISU would be working together and sharing revenue. It would be easier to deal with any potential CCFC rental agreement if SISUwere getting half of the Rent back as a 50 50 Partner in ACL.

I'd agree with this, ACL/CCC are one party in a way, and if Higgs were out of the equation, it's a simple ACL and CCFC

Ian1779 · May 4, 2014

ccfc92 said:
I'd agree with this, ACL/CCC are one party in a way, and if Higgs were out of the equation, it's a simple ACL and CCFC

Even better would be Higgs selling up, then ACL being bought out - only leaving CCFC and CCC

ccfc92 · May 4, 2014

Ian1779 said:
Even better would be Higgs selling up, then ACL being bought out - only leaving CCFC and CCC

would that mean CCC own the bricks and mortar, and CCFC run the Ricoh for them?

diggerdaley · May 4, 2014

I imagine the maintenance costs of running the Arena complex must be quite high,why would sisu want this cost when they could rent ? I suspect they have an ulterior motive for owning the Ricoh,using it as collateral against other investments for example,they have no interest in a football club.

chiefdave · May 4, 2014

ccfc92 said:
would that mean CCC own the bricks and mortar, and CCFC run the Ricoh for them?

CCFC would need to buy the Higgs 50% and CCC 50% and then you'd be in that situation. CCC would own the freehold, CCFC would hold the lease. For me this is the best way forward and something that all sides should work towards. Once in that position the club are free to renegotiate any contracts with Ricoh tenants as needed and the lease can be extended, preferably on a peppercorn rent.

CCC retain security, CCFC take effective ownership.

Ian1779 · May 4, 2014

chiefdave said:
CCFC would need to buy the Higgs 50% and CCC 50% and then you'd be in that situation. CCC would own the freehold, CCFC would hold the lease. For me this is the best way forward and something that all sides should work towards. Once in that position the club are free to renegotiate any contracts with Ricoh tenants as needed and the lease can be extended, preferably on a peppercorn rent.

CCC retain security, CCFC take effective ownership.

Definitely the best option. CCFC control everything that goes on in the complex. The club can hire an events expert (AEG for example) to run the stadium in conjunction with them.

So what do you get for £6.5 million? (9 Viewers)

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