Sorry to start another Thorn thread .... (1 Viewer)

Otis · Dec 1, 2011

And I am not having a go at all here or trying to get into an argument with pro-Thorn supporters. Just want to see why people who support AT think what they think. Just thought that this question is very relevant to people's stance.

My question here is a straight forward one. Putting aside all the points about lack of investment and players not being of a very good quality etc.

The question is; Why do you think the tactics we are deploying are the right tactics for us and do you believe there is any other way we can play?

Gaz · Dec 1, 2011

I'll try to give you my view on it Otis

The way I see it is that our current manager and our last manager are about as different as you can get it in terms of playing style.

Aidy was a long ball ball tactics man

Thorn is a play it out from the back on the ground tactics man.

We are not doing well with Andy at the mo and it failed with hoof football with Aidy.

So it makes me think that there must be somthing else that is the problem.

Just my view

Macca · Dec 1, 2011

you're pissing in the wind my friend.

Thorn is the most popular manager I can remember (why I don't know).

A lot of it is down to SISU hatred.

Some of it is down to wanting stability (albeit in league 1)

Things have changed in the clubs support over the last 10 years, no militancy anymore, happy clappy types. I think its because of the slow but sure decline that has slowly conditioned people to dross.

I shan't stop supporting them though have accepted that it will sink lower and lower over the next few years. But when its your club its just what you have to do!

Not sure given the surrender this year whether I'll see every game but next year we can start again I guess

ICHAN · Dec 1, 2011

As macca says a lack of any kind of success style of football over the last 10 years (as some may not have supported or remember the prem days, not having a go at those who do not remember and feel sorry for them in a way) and the dross of nothing over this period may have weighed them down and have become complasent in what we have had over this time and had to endour as fans of the club and have come accustomed to it.
It's like anything, have crap for so long you get used to it and conditioned to it, not anyones fault thats just the way I see it.

Otis · Dec 1, 2011

Thorn obviously thinks this the way to play. I, myself would like to see us play at a higher tempo as I feel it's all a bit slow and ponderous. This doesn't mean you need quicker players either, just up the tempo when we are in possession.

Though the diamond is okay I think we are too predictable. I really liked the way we played against West Ham and for the first time this season I believed we might have a reasonable chance of staying up.

Macca · Dec 1, 2011

Trouble is what is Thorns motivation? If you are in a job that seems to have no threat of sack and huge amounts of support from the fans even with shocking results then what the hell keeps you awake at night?

skyblueben83 · Dec 1, 2011

I think he derserves a chance because he's managed to get 13 points with having players like Baker, Bell, O'Donovan in the first team! And then all the teenagers. How he's got any points at all I don't know.

TheHellion · Dec 1, 2011

Are the tactics we use the right ones for us?

Well, not according to results they're not. At least not the way we're currently using them.

Is there any other way we can play?

Well, I may not come across clearly on this one, but here goes. The way we play football works IF it's done properly, I mean passing forward and not just backwards or sideways over the pitch all the time. If you're going to play the passing game, you have to look up and see what is ahead of you. The ball has to go forward, into the attacking areas in the shortest possible time at the lowest possible altitude. The problem is that we're not able to do that. Why? I think it's down partly to coaching, and partly because we've lost players who helped us to do that last season. But the question is, losing those players aside, is it so difficult for so-called professionals to understand the basic principles of the passing game and apply them during matches? Now because we don't create the chances, we're putting ourselves under pressure and we're not coping and losing points because of it.

The way we play could work, but it's only going to work if the ball starts moving forward more regularly and with more urgency. I believe if that happened, we'd see more goals and hopefully less pressure on the defence. So, the tactics we're using could work if used properly, but at the moment, the way we're using them isn't working.

johnniericoh · Dec 1, 2011

Keep saying it - it's glaringly obvious that AT plays a safety first defensive approach.

Centre mids (Gael and Connor) have scored NIL goals in 22 games played between them - with a total of just 8 attempts at goal !!!

Sideways, backwards any where but forward, strikers wandering up and down the flanks chasing lost causes instead of lurking in the pen box.

Come on AT take the brakes off - uplift the pace and tempo - dominate that final third.

Do Something !!1

PUSB

Otis · Dec 1, 2011

TheHellion said:
Are the tactics we use the right ones for us?

Well, not according to results they're not. At least not the way we're currently using them.

Is there any other way we can play?

Well, I may not come across clearly on this one, but here goes. The way we play football works IF it's done properly, I mean passing forward and not just backwards or sideways over the pitch all the time. If you're going to play the passing game, you have to look up and see what is ahead of you. The ball has to go forward, into the attacking areas in the shortest possible time at the lowest possible altitude. The problem is that we're not able to do that. Why? I think it's down partly to coaching, and partly because we've lost players who helped us to do that last season. But the question is, losing those players aside, is it so difficult for so-called professionals to understand the basic principles of the passing game and apply them during matches? Now because we don't create the chances, we're putting ourselves under pressure and we're not coping and losing points because of it.

The way we play could work, but it's only going to work if the ball starts moving forward more regularly and with more urgency. I believe if that happened, we'd see more goals and hopefully less pressure on the defence. So, the tactics we're using could work if used properly, but at the moment, the way we're using them isn't working.

Very good post and well reasoned.

Otis · Dec 1, 2011

johnniericoh said:
Keep saying it - it's glaringly obvious that AT plays a safety first defensive approach.

Centre mids (Gael and Connor) have scored NIL goals in 22 games played between them - with a total of just 8 attempts at goal !!!

Sideways, backwards any where but forward, strikers wandering up and down the flanks chasing lost causes instead of lurking in the pen box.

Come on AT take the brakes off - uplift the pace and tempo - dominate that final third.

Do Something !!1

PUSB

We upped the tempo against West Ham and it was our best performance of the season.

smileycov · Dec 1, 2011

Otis said:
Thorn obviously thinks this the way to play. I, myself would like to see us play at a higher tempo as I feel it's all a bit slow and ponderous. This doesn't mean you need quicker players either, just up the tempo when we are in possession.

Though the diamond is okay I think we are too predictable. I really liked the way we played against West Ham and for the first time this season I believed we might have a reasonable chance of staying up.

I am a keep Thorn man, not through anything other than they will not change him. That would cost money it aint gonna happen. So i am supporting him and the team best i can. However i do like AT style of play, the problem we have (and he does) is we lack pace. Even the WHU game we attack sooooooo slow!! he cannot coach pace. I suppose his inexperience is at fault here in the fact he cant seem to get around this fact and change it up. If you look at us we keep the ball well, move it around but we just cannot get it forward quick enougfh. At millwall it drove them bonkers, but with no penetration it was only a matter of time before we got punished. They got the ball and flew at us, the youngsters couldn't cope. He is not the best, he is inexperienced and we will go down playing pretty football, that is how he wants to play. however without funding to get new players in there is frig all he can do. Get a top manager in....we still would have a squad without pace. Maybe that is why Aidy got us to hoof it up the field beacuse we couldnt run it!

smileycov · Dec 1, 2011

Sorry Otis, re-read yours....i do think pace is important not just Tempo !

Otis · Dec 1, 2011

smileycov said:
Sorry Otis, re-read yours....i do think pace is important not just Tempo !

It would certainly help for sure. We do have pace in the squad, just not enough of it. Would say Christie and Hussey are pretty quick, Bigi and Thomas too and McDonald is known for his pace. Pity we haven't had chance to see it yet. Haven't seen Gardner yet so cannot comment.

ashbyjan · Dec 1, 2011

I would rather have the patient ball retention football of Thorn than the mindless route one football of Boothroyd. However where Thorn has failed is not his system but the fact he hasn't recognised that he doesn't have the players to play in that system. It worked at the tail end of last season because we had King up front, hold it up, running into channels, making space for himself and Juke, we had Gunnarson running from midfield, getting into the box, making himself available, we had Sheff playing one-two's, going for returns. This season King is gone and we have a choice of Platt, ROD or Cody - none offer anything close to what Marlon did. Gunnarson has been replaced by Connor who is a different type of player and doesn't like going forward as much and Sheff has been replaced by a frigging lazy statue. Thorn may want to play a certain way but as we don't have the personnel to do so and he has no chance of recruiting suitable players he should look at what he has and find a system that suits. Also we need to mix it up not constantly tip tap about, sideways and backwards but occasionally get it forward quickly and not be totally predicatable.
Yes for one game we upped the tempo and did ok (still lost but better) but the next game back to slow predictable crap.

smileycov · Dec 1, 2011

Like the look of Gardner, if he can get hold of the midfield maybe, just maybe we can start to press on more. The midfield is where we really fall down, baker looks like he is running on sand half the time. Bigi and Thomas do not really pick it up and press on, maybe AT at fault there, we do need to get him help. Not gonna happen though is it

Otis · Dec 1, 2011

smileycov said:
Like the look of Gardner, if he can get hold of the midfield maybe, just maybe we can start to press on more. The midfield is where we really fall down, baker looks like he is running on sand half the time. Bigi and Thomas do not really pick it up and press on, maybe AT at fault there, we do need to get him help. Not gonna happen though is it

Not unless he promotes Carsely into an assistant managing sort of role. Any help is only going to come from within I think.

Unless they get someone like Sillet or Gould to try and assist in some way.

Covstu · Dec 1, 2011

I agree with most comments, i am pro thorn at the moment. Dont get me wrong i dont think he is the best manager around (or even close) but we have no other option IMO. I like his style of play however it raises the question about was the team (and skill base) based around AB's previous tactics and therefore the team are not able to play a ball to feet style of play?? Hence why we always pass back rather than using a creative ball through.

We have lost some key players which have not been replaced (our 4 spine players), you onyl have to look at how well Aron is playing for Cardiff to see what quality we lost there and attacking natured. we need to use Bigi in a more attackign light and even Sammy for that matter because he has a great shot on him.

oldskyblue58 · Dec 1, 2011

I find it a little frustrating that we support the manager simply because we know there is unlikely to be a change. But that is the position I find myself in.

Truth is I think that AT is a nice guy but I dont rate his managerial skills from what i have seen to date. Even given the excuses (reasons) proffered by many I still dont think he has what it takes right now at this level. We never were in a position where we could allow a complete managerial novice to learn the ability on this particular job.

In terms of how we play the game then we lack pace not just physically but mentally. We move the ball slowly around the pitch and react to movement but dont create it. We let in goals in part because we do not pressure the ball in opponents half but also because we dont take the ball forward quick enough thereby moving the team up the pitch. In effect we invite pressure sooner because we play deep because we move the ball so slowly risking losing it in midfield by poor passing, retention and lack of quality.

If the problem of speed or tempo is because of the players we have then we are playing the wrong system. If we have the right players to play the system then AT fails to get the best out of them and the system. Either way AT hasnt changed his principles and whilst i can applaud the intention to play passing football it isnt working as it should be. Part of that is down to inexperience on his part.

Grendel · Dec 1, 2011

Macca said:
you're pissing in the wind my friend.

Thorn is the most popular manager I can remember (why I don't know).

A lot of it is down to SISU hatred.

Some of it is down to wanting stability (albeit in league 1)

Things have changed in the clubs support over the last 10 years, no militancy anymore, happy clappy types. I think its because of the slow but sure decline that has slowly conditioned people to dross.

I shan't stop supporting them though have accepted that it will sink lower and lower over the next few years. But when its your club its just what you have to do!

Not sure given the surrender this year whether I'll see every game but next year we can start again I guess

You've just answered the question -- SISU have made Thorn some kind of odd ant-hero. Fan's seem to see him as one of them a real bloke who gives a cheery wave whenever we are losing (again).
Harsh reality is he is clueless and sadly fooling his supporters. He will dread the day SISU go as that is the end of his little journey into football management. I am tired of it because the same arguments are deployed by his followers and none them mention any tangible strengths he has.

AT fans say I make the same argument all the time but the issue is never answered -- with the SAME resources, SAME owners would you support Peter Reid or Boothroyd both better managers (look at trophies, win ratios before you start). Answer is no. Some will say they like his style of football. What a joke. It is the most boring sterile football I have ever seen. The only reason he mentioned football style was to get fans on his side post-Boothroyd. Yes slag off the prior boss in public - a sign of huge insecurity.

Then people say he got Marlon King scoring goals - I make it 7 in 14 (4 sub) with Boothroyd and 3 in 10 with Thorn (exc. penalties). God what an impressive motivator. As if King would have even looked at this club if Andy Thorn was in charge.

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Dec 1, 2011

Meh I am tired of posting my opinions as people have there opinions which is fair enough. Thorn needs to change things or make way for someone that can, given the fact they Thorn should have changed things 10 games or so ago leads me towards the opinion that he is either incapable or unwilling to change things.

TheParsonsHose · Dec 1, 2011

It's supporting with no real choice for me.

I would prefer the long ball if it meant more wins and out of the bottom three. A passing game means nothing in the end and whilst it's better on the eye than say long ball reaults matter most.

As for the formation with no plan B and a lack of willingness to change it doesn't look good for the rest of the season. I am not gonna boo Thorn or call for his head and see no point. Perhaps were resigned to the fact that we are and will be no better than our current league

PUSB

sky blue john · Dec 1, 2011

We are discussing current players and systems but whats going to to happen when in a months time juke and Clingan go, we have very limited options now !!!!!

stupot07 · Dec 1, 2011

kduffy said:
You've just answered the question -- SISU have made Thorn some kind of odd ant-hero. Fan's seem to see him as one of them a real bloke who gives a cheery wave whenever we are losing (again).
Harsh reality is he is clueless and sadly fooling his supporters. He will dread the day SISU go as that is the end of his little journey into football management. I am tired of it because the same arguments are deployed by his followers and none them mention any tangible strengths he has.

AT fans say I make the same argument all the time but the issue is never answered -- with the SAME resources, SAME owners would you support Peter Reid or Boothroyd both better managers (look at trophies, win ratios before you start). Answer is no. Some will say they like his style of football. What a joke. It is the most boring sterile football I have ever seen. The only reason he mentioned football style was to get fans on his side post-Boothroyd. Yes slag off the prior boss in public - a sign of huge insecurity.

Then people say he got Marlon King scoring goals - I make it 7 in 14 (4 sub) with Boothroyd and 3 in 10 with Thorn (exc. penalties). God what an impressive motivator. As if King would have even looked at this club if Andy Thorn was in charge.

Under your assumption that marlons penalties don't count You could argue that thorn has improved juke got him scoring.

Juke scored 2 in 33 under boothroyd (exc the 3 pens), were as he's scored 10 in 30 under thorn (exc the 1 pen).

Lord_Nampil · Dec 1, 2011

Hes lost the plot, iv lost the faith!!!!

http://www.ccfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10269~2533198,00.html

Grendel · Dec 1, 2011

stupot07 said:
Under your assumption that marlons penalties don't count You could argue that thorn has improved juke got him scoring.

Juke scored 2 in 33 under boothroyd (exc the 3 pens), were as he's scored 10 in 30 under thorn (exc the 1 pen).

That is getting really desparate -- answer the Peter Reid point

Heggspusb · Dec 1, 2011

Hi guys new to the forum is there any news on what keys said on talksport about poss takeover ? Or any other news ?

CJparker · Dec 1, 2011

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Johnnythespider · Dec 1, 2011

I wan't him to stay because i'm fed up of the manager merry go round, new manager arrives has three to six month honeymoon period and people start to call for him to go. i think he is trying to get the team playing the way i want to see us play. If he takes us down unless we can get a top man in to replace him i'd like to see him get a chance to bring us back up. so not because of sisu or his lack of budget, although they are major factors, but because i'm fed up of new manager every other year.

Grendel · Dec 1, 2011

Johnnythespider said:
I wan't him to stay because i'm fed up of the manager merry go round, new manager arrives has three to six month honeymoon period and people start to call for him to go. i think he is trying to get the team playing the way i want to see us play. If he takes us down unless we can get a top man in to replace him i'd like to see him get a chance to bring us back up. so not because of sisu or his lack of budget, although they are major factors, but because i'm fed up of new manager every other year.

There is more chance of me travelling to Mars than Thorn getting us back up. Playing the way you like to see us play? It's boring and fans are quitting in droves.. and I will be amongst them if he is around next season.

ICHAN · Dec 1, 2011

Lord_Nampil said:
Hes lost the plot, iv lost the faith!!!!

http://www.ccfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10269~2533198,00.html

Funny the other week they could not hit a barn door, they have got managers sacked etc now they are giving there all.
I understand people not wanting a merry go round of managers every 6 months to a year and yes stability is the way forward, I think most agree on this.
Most know and agree the squad is not the best.
Most knew and agree we were/will struggle.
But the big question is, surely 2 wins all season is not good enough, sorry but it is not, regardless of the squad we should have had more than 2 wins this season.
We can not last stamina wise for 90mins and teams know this thats why we concede in the last minutes of the game because they know we tire as a team physically and mentally.
There is no passion in them as a unit, the team fight has gone, where they should be fighting hammer and nail to grind out at least some results, they just seem to be conceded to the fact that we are going to lose.
So this must come down to the management/coaching of the team.
Surely by now they should be physically fit enough to last the game out, and if not why, more so the experianced/senior players who should be getting the young lads and encouraging them and dragging them through to the end.
If not then those who are senior players should be getting coached/managed asked as to why they are not performing and get a big huge kick up there arse and I think this is not happening, or if it is then why are they not respecting what is being said to them?
Is AT too weak a man to lay down the law? I would be surprised if he is being an ex crazy gang memeber.
So if he is not getting his messages across then surely he has lost the dressing room and all respect from the players/ some of the stronger characters in the dressing room.
So unfortunatly either he has to go and someone come in and sort this shower out or we just carry on with the inevitable until the end of a long miserable season in the life of a CCFC supporter.

Grendel · Dec 1, 2011

ICHAN said:
Funny the other week they could not hit a barn door, they have got managers sacked etc now they are giving there all.
I understand people not wanting a merry go round of managers every 6 months to a year and yes stability is the way forward, I think most agree on this.
Most know and agree the squad is not the best.
Most knew and agree we were/will struggle.
But the big question is, surely 2 wins all season is not good enough, sorry but it is not, regardless of the squad we should have had more than 2 wins this season.
We can not last stamina wise for 90mins and teams know this thats why we concede in the last minutes of the game because they know we tire as a team physically and mentally.
There is no passion in them as a unit, the team fight has gone, where they should be fighting hammer and nail to grind out at least some results, they just seem to be conceded to the fact that we are going to lose.
So this must come down to the management/coaching of the team.
Surely by now they should be physically fit enough to last the game out, and if not why, more so the experianced/senior players who should be getting the young lads and encouraging them and dragging them through to the end.
If not then those who are senior players should be getting coached/managed asked as to why they are not performing and get a big huge kick up there arse and I think this is not happening, or if it is then why are they not respecting what is being said to them?
Is AT too weak a man to lay down the law? I would be surprised if he is being an ex crazy gang memeber.
So if he is not getting his messages across then surely he has lost the dressing room and all respect from the players/ some of the stronger characters in the dressing room.
So unfortunatly either he has to go and someone come in and sort this shower out or we just carry on with the inevitable until the end of a long miserable season in the life of a CCFC supporter.

I agree 100% -- that's rare isn't it?

ICHAN · Dec 1, 2011

Very rare kduffy but thats the beauty of forums one minute people disagree but the next agree with no hard feelings most of the time as long as people are adult enough to keep things civil.

Otis · Dec 2, 2011

"The Sky Blues have been praised in sections of football for playing the game 'the right way' but have been unlucky recently regarding results."

I'm sure we're getting lots of praise for the way we play from sections in football. Their football teams keep taking points off us."

stupot07 · Dec 2, 2011

kduffy said:
That is getting really desparate -- answer the Peter Reid point

No that wasn't getting desperate - you made a point that excluding penalties Marlon scored more under boothroyd than thorn, I as stating an alternative viewpoint that lukas has score x5 as many goals from open play under thorn than under boothroyd in 3 less games. You stated that therefore thorn did not get marlon scoring, i'm stating that he has got lukas scoring.

To answer your point about reid and boothroyd. If they were working with the same set of players, under the same financial constraints, etc as Thorn is now, the I would be backing them as I am backing thorn now.

Sorry to start another Thorn thread .... (1 Viewer)

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