Sorry to start up the Stadium bollox again but... (1 Viewer)

Fergusons_Beard · Jan 29, 2020

Does anyone know how much CCFC paid to build Ricoh?

Some bollocks on Twitter that it was paid for by tax payers money but I thought City paid for clearing of brownfield site, foundations and most of rest.

In my head Council finished it off but got the 90m (?) from Tesco that was supposed to go to the club.

Again don’t shout at me if my recollection is wrong-is this out in public domain or is it all conjecture?

Hopefully OSB got answer!

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theferret · Jan 29, 2020

Fergusons_Beard said:
Does anyone know how much CCFC paid to build Ricoh?

Some bollocks on Twitter that it was paid for by tax payers money but I thought City paid for clearing of brownfield site, foundations and most of rest.

In my head Council finished it off but got the 90m (?) from Tesco that was supposed to go to the club.

Again don’t shout at me if my recollection is wrong-is this out in public domain or is it all conjecture?

Hopefully OSB got answer!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Table 1: sources of funding for construction of the Ricoh Arena Funding source Amount /£m
Receipts from the sale of land to Tesco 59m
CCC equity 10m
CCC meeting overspends 3m
CCC Prudential borrowing (see paragraph 4 below) 21m
European Regional Development Fund 4m
Advantage West Midlands 5m
Isle of Capri 6m
CCFC 2m
Other sources (interest, residual land sales) 8m
Total 118m

It's covered here: https://barnet.moderngov.co.uk/documents/s47459/Appendix A.pdf

Relatively little 'taxpayers' money was used as much of it was borrowed, around 11% of the build cost in reality. Also, it was CCFC who brokered the Tesco deal, achieving a much higher valuation than many analysts predicted.

ccfchoi87 · Jan 29, 2020

theferret said:
Table 1: sources of funding for construction of the Ricoh Arena Funding source Amount /£m
Receipts from the sale of land to Tesco 59m
CCC equity 10m
CCC meeting overspends 3m
CCC Prudential borrowing (see paragraph 4 below) 21m
European Regional Development Fund 4m
Advantage West Midlands 5m
Isle of Capri 6m
CCFC 2m
Other sources (interest, residual land sales) 8m
Total 118m

It's covered here: https://barnet.moderngov.co.uk/documents/s47459/Appendix A.pdf

Relatively little 'taxpayers' money was used as much of it was borrowed, around 11% of the build cost in reality. Also, it was CCFC who brokered the Tesco deal, achieving a much higher valuation than many analysts predicted.

Crazy to think that shortly afterwards, a 250 year lease could be obtained for so little.

tisza · Jan 29, 2020

haven't got it with me but you need to check the Council report 27 june 2006. Much more detailed breakdown of expenditure.
The clean up etc was paid by Tesco as part of their land purchase.

chiefdave · Jan 29, 2020

From memory think the Prudential loan was repaid by selling the lease to ACL, then owned 50% by us and 50% by Higgs, for a rather convenient £21m.

Think the costs in that report just cover the actual build. The design, planning etc would have all cost as well and I think, again just going from memory, we set up another company to deal with that, Arena 2001 rings a bell. Think that was eventually wound up a few million out of pocket.

tisza · Jan 29, 2020

chiefdave said:
From memory think the Prudential loan was repaid by selling the lease to ACL, then owned 50% by us and 50% by Higgs, for a rather convenient £21m.

Think the costs in that report just cover the actual build. The design, planning etc would have all cost as well and I think, again just going from memory, we set up another company to deal with that, Arena 2001 rings a bell. Think that was eventually wound up a few million out of pocket.

no think ACL was 50% the council 50% us then Higgs bought our 50%.

chiefdave · Jan 29, 2020

tisza said:
no think ACL was 50% the council 50% us then Higgs bought our 50%.

Sorry, you're right of course. But still the Prudential loan can pretty much be ignored on the council side as it was only really bridging until the lease was paid.

tisza · Jan 29, 2020

chiefdave said:
Sorry, you're right of course. But still the Prudential loan can pretty much be ignored on the council side as it was only really bridging until the lease was paid.

Yep. The real relevance was their "justification" of the original rent being based on ACL having to repay that loan

Specs WT-R75 · Jan 29, 2020

I think the main arguments from the council side is that as they made the net 59m gain from the land sale, then they contributed that 59m to the project, even though the net cost to the taxpayer was the 21m that ultimately ended up as the mortgage on ACL to buy the lease for 21m to zero the books. Whilst as a point of law they are of course absolutely correct... morally that money was the football clubs and it was that particular part of the transaction that ultimately puts us where we are today. Without the land deal the council would never have ended up with the freehold etc etc.

Grendel · Jan 29, 2020

What the council actually claimed was that they could not pay back the profits to the club as - ironically it contravened state aid rules.

The compromise was that the club I think had to put in £2m and was then given shares. PWKH often said that the rent of £1.3m was decided as they’d it was what we were paying at highfield road. This of course is rubbish. We weren’t and it wasn’t.

The share purchase was supposed to offset the rent payments by dividends on profits. Mcginnity sold these rights to keep his buddy happy and accepted £2m and the waiver of a £2.5m debt from Higgs. The valuation was something like £33m so he gave up the shares for a couple of million cash but never renegotiated the rent.

At that point we were stuck. Then ACL had an option of paying back £1.9m a year or take the famous loan over a longer period which they took

Then we were dead before we’d even kicked a ball

Fergusons_Beard · Jan 29, 2020

Grendel said:
What the council actually claimed was that they could not pay back the profits to the club as - ironically it contravened state aid rules.

The compromise was that the club I think had to put in £2m and was then given shares. PWKH often said that the rent of £1.3m was decided as they’d it was what we were paying at highfield road. This of course is rubbish. We weren’t and it wasn’t.

The share purchase was supposed to offset the rent payments by dividends on profits. Mcginnity sold these rights to keep his buddy happy and accepted £2m and the waiver of a £2.5m debt from Higgs. The valuation was something like £33m so he gave up the shares for a couple of million cash but never renegotiated the rent.

At that point we were stuck. Then ACL had an option of paying back £1.9m a year or take the famous loan over a longer period which they took

Then we were dead before we’d even kicked a ball

All before SISU was involved Grendel?

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Fergusons_Beard · Jan 29, 2020

Thank you to all who replied to this thread.

Most fascinating and enlightening.

Dispels a lot of myths too.

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Grendel · Jan 29, 2020

Fergusons_Beard said:
All before SISU was involved Grendel?

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Yes

Flying Fokker · Jan 29, 2020

The sad thing is that SISU could have bought the stadium but blew it. instead Coventry has two Rugby clubs. Pathetic.

Grendel · Jan 29, 2020

Flying Fokker said:
The sad thing is that SISU could have bought the stadium but blew it. instead Coventry has two Rugby clubs. Pathetic.

No they were never given that opportunity

Hadji's_Goatee · Jan 29, 2020

Flying Fokker said:
The sad thing is that SISU could have bought the stadium but blew it. instead Coventry has two Rugby clubs. Pathetic.

No, the sad thing is the club we’re shafted long before SISU came on the scene, by a greedy, corrupt local authority. And I’m sure McGinity is far from covered in glory - he was paid to let it happen. Think. His plastics company was the winning tender for the stadium seats.

When Richardson brokered that deal with Tescos, the councils greedy eyes lit up, they wanted some of that action. How we came out of that with only 50% stake and rent to pay is a travesty.

Sky Blue Pete · Jan 29, 2020

Grendel said:
No they were never given that opportunity

I think they were but it wasn’t the plan when they first took over

Ring Of Steel · Jan 29, 2020

Sky Blue Pete said:
I think they were but it wasn’t the plan when they first took over

This is correct, they were, but it was as a result of all the dead ends and arguing, it was offered as a potential way to bring it all to a head.

Grendel · Jan 30, 2020

Sky Blue Pete said:
I think they were but it wasn’t the plan when they first took over

no they weren’t despite Linnell and his sources claiming otherwise

Grendel · Jan 30, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
This is correct, they were, but it was as a result of all the dead ends and arguing, it was offered as a potential way to bring it all to a head.

No you are referring to the HOT for the Higgs share only which famously broke down

Ring Of Steel · Jan 30, 2020

Grendel said:
No you are referring to the HOT for the Higgs share only which famously broke down

With all due respect, your record for facts since I came back on here is mesmerisingly bad.

Flying Fokker · Jan 30, 2020

Grendel said:
No they were never given that opportunity

Or did they stress ACL beforehand. They must have been shit tenants if they were never given the opportunity.

I know there was the issue of the rent but why did they take it on? was it with the intention of never paying? Who knows . So what ways the plan...develop a positive relationship with all parties? At the time there was no Wasps. We were the only show in town according to Fisher. Then ACL/ Higgs/CCC sell out at a ridiculously cheap offer. Probably a 50% discount when all loans etc paid off. Then city cut their cloth, alienated the fans once.

Then there is all the other missed opportunities. Player contracts ran out and we recruited 2nd division players and managers.

mark Robins is doing a fantastic job. The next step has to be a return to Coventry. I guess this year is our best shot Because there is momentum.

Hadji's_Goatee · Jan 30, 2020

This whole SISU / Stadium thing is a straw man debate.

The council started it all with the dodgy deals building the stadium. A foundation for financial disaster for the club.

If it was done right SISU would never have gotten involved.

Trace it back. The council drew first blood.

Feb57 · Jan 30, 2020

In 2003 Sir Derek Higgs agreed to buy CCFC’s 50 % share in the arena(ACL) for 6.5 million pounds. The caveat was the club then had the first option for I think 5 years to buy back the shares at the 6.5 million plus an additional amount worked out by a previously agreed formula. Unfortunately SISU never saw fit to purchase this share when they had the goodwill of the council and the charity which I suspect would have gone through at the time without a hitch (Ranson at the time said it was not a priority in a meeting he had with the category B shareholders (they were previously full shareholders in CCFC) at the Ricoh ). This was then reported in the press.
By the time the WASPS turned up, the chance of SISU, the council and charity doing business had long been soured. The ironic thing here is that WASPS paid the charity 2.77 million pounds for the 50% share. SISU put an offer in which again I believe matched WASP’s offer but it was rejected by the charity.
One last thing, it is believed that although the Charity owned the 50%, for them to sell it, the owner of the other 50% had to agree with the sale and approve the purchaser. If they did not agree they could veto the sale.
Ask yourselves in 2014 what chance did SISU have of obtaining agreement from either the council or later the WASP’s of getting that approval.
It’s just a pity that Sir Derek passed away, having met him on several occasions I firmly believe that this situation would never have been allowed to happen had he still been at the helm of the charity instead of the balloon man.
I have recalled the above from memory and a bit of research so stand to be corrected except for the previous sentence which is my own personal belief.

The coventrian · Jan 30, 2020

Hadji's_Goatee said:
This whole SISU / Stadium thing is a straw man debate.

The council started it all with the dodgy deals building the stadium. A foundation for financial disaster for the club.

If it was done right SISU would never have gotten involved.

Trace it back. The council drew first blood.

Didn't the club/previous owners start it by running it so badly the council had to bail us out in the first place or do we just carry on blaming everyone else

tisza · Jan 30, 2020

The coventrian said:
Didn't the club/previous owners start it by running it so badly the council had to bail us out in the first place or do we just carry on blaming everyone else

Yep. Basically drew up the plans on the back of a fag packet.
From completely underestimating decontamination costs to failing to secure the funds to buy the land in the 1st place.
The scheme was typical Richardson - having a punt, don't worry something will turn up etc...
The concept of a new stadium was fine just the execution a total fiasco (for CCFC)

skybluebeduff · Jan 30, 2020

Flying Fokker said:
The sad thing is that SISU could have bought the stadium but blew it. instead Coventry has two Rugby clubs. Pathetic.

The Ricoh was never on the market, it was sold behind our backs by the council, completely ignoring a club that bears its name for the past 137 years...

Grendel · Jan 30, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
With all due respect, your record for facts since I came back on here is mesmerisingly bad.

Er not really. You think Sisu have put £75m into the club. Then you didn’t. Then it’s £60m then it’s £101m - when did this happen? No doubt the venue was “somewhere in the Cayman Islands” lol

tisza · Jan 30, 2020

found that costings file & report

Ring Of Steel · Jan 30, 2020

Grendel said:
Er not really. You think Sisu have put £75m into the club. Then you didn’t. Then it’s £60m then it’s £101m - when did this happen? No doubt the venue was “somewhere in the Cayman Islands” lol

The point is that nobody knows, clearly not you, and its way more than £20m. That was clearly established. I know you've taken a pasting recently, and I actually feel bad at how many times I've had no choice but to smarten you up- however stay in control of your emotions, don't turn into a stalker.

By the way, the Gil Merrick is the one with two tiers at St Andrews, you know, the one which has "4,500 seats" but which we've been given 6,000 seats for, I guess they must be building a temporary stand

Nick · Jan 30, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
The point is that nobody knows, clearly not you, and its way more than £20m. That was clearly established. I know you've taken a pasting recently, and I actually feel bad at how many times I've had no choice but to smarten you up- however stay in control of your emotions, don't turn into a stalker.

By the way, the Gil Merrick is the one with two tiers at St Andrews, you know, the one which has "4,500 seats" but which we've been given 6,000 seats for, I guess they must be building a temporary stand

Hasn't somebody gone through and cleared it all up?

Sky Blue Trust - Fact or Fiction, Myth or Truth (Part 1) - 11th February 2019

SkyBlueDom26 · Jan 30, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
By the way, the Gil Merrick is the one with two tiers at St Andrews, you know, the one which has "4,500 seats" but which we've been given 6,000 seats for, I guess they must be building a temporary stand

Literally like a broken record, keep mentioning it 30 times a day lol its boring

Grendel · Jan 30, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
The point is that nobody knows, clearly not you, and its way more than £20m. That was clearly established. I know you've taken a pasting recently, and I actually feel bad at how many times I've had no choice but to smarten you up- however stay in control of your emotions, don't turn into a stalker.

By the way, the Gil Merrick is the one with two tiers at St Andrews, you know, the one which has "4,500 seats" but which we've been given 6,000 seats for, I guess they must be building a temporary stand

No it’s not “clearly established” at all other than in your own head - it’s established the funding from Sisu was the amount still sitting in ARVO. The balance on the original SBSL would have included outside source funding including the arrangement with Prozone. The inflated debt is paper exercises as per the link I sent which you oddly ignored

Id be fascinated to know how you think funds can be moved to the Caymen Islands and for what purpose.

I never said the two tiers had 4,500’- you seem to have major comprehension issues

On this particular matter you’ve made a statement we were offered the whole of ACL to purchase but surprise surprise have no actual evidence at all

Grendel · Jan 30, 2020

Nick said:
Hasn't somebody gone through and cleared it all up?

Sky Blue Trust - Fact or Fiction, Myth or Truth (Part 1) - 11th February 2019

Oh dear

Grendel · Jan 30, 2020

SkyBlueDom26 said:
Literally like a broken record, keep mentioning it 30 times a day lol its boring

It’s a curious deflection from the real aim he’s trying to get over which is the clubs owners have spent millions more than they actually have which is a very odd argument to make

Sorry to start up the Stadium bollox again but... (1 Viewer)

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