Match Thread Southend United vs. Coventry City Match Thread - Saturday 20th Oct (2 Viewers)

SlowerThanPlatt · Oct 22, 2018

Just looking at some data from the excellent Ben Mayhew.

Oldest average age of starting line up (in order):
Wycombe - 17th
Southend - 12th
Burton - 14th
Bristol Rovers - 20th
Rochdale - 16th
Fleetwood - 11th

Youngest average age of starting line up (in order):
Barnsley - 5th
Walsall - 8th
Coventry - 11th
Portsmouth - 1st
Charlton - 9th
Peterborough - 2nd

better days · Oct 22, 2018

SlowerThanPlatt said:
Just looking at some data from the excellent Ben Mayhew.

Oldest average age of starting line up (in order):
Wycombe - 17th
Southend - 12th
Burton - 14th
Bristol Rovers - 20th
Rochdale - 16th
Fleetwood - 11th

Youngest average age of starting line up (in order):
Barnsley - 5th
Walsall - 8th
Coventry - 11th
Portsmouth - 1st
Charlton - 9th
Peterborough - 2nd

Take out Doyler at 37 and we'd probably be the three youngest I'd guess

Adge · Oct 22, 2018

skybluegod said:
Wrong. Please don’t pretend to know what you are talking about when you don’t. It is the correct recommended position. Speaking as someone who has reffed and been assessed throughly. there is no set position for a ref to be in. He is in an incorrect position if he cannot make the correct decision. He didn’t make the correct decision. Because HE was not in the position to see.

As a senior County level 5 referee,I think I do know what I’m talking about.

Adge · Oct 22, 2018

Sky Blue Pete said:
But they are making a decision by not giving the goal! If they can’t get into a position to give that then OMG

They are in the correct position. The reason they have not given the goal is because the assistant IS NOT 100% that the ball had crossed the line because of the player on the line shielding the ball from his view.

skybluegod · Oct 22, 2018

Adge said:
As a senior County level 5 referee,I think I do know what I’m talking about.

Really well I'm almost 100% that's a load of bullshit, I work with Level 3, who's first ever lesson was, that you can be taught all of the running angles, and positions, but if you aren't in the position to see the most critical parts of the game you are in the wrong position. Yes you are right he didn't 100% know that it had gone over the line,and yes you are right he cannot give it unless he sees it. But that is HIS FAULT, and he must take the blame for that.

Nick · Oct 22, 2018

Adge said:
They are in the correct position. The reason they have not given the goal is because the assistant IS NOT 100% that the ball had crossed the line because of the player on the line shielding the ball from his view.

If the officials couldn't see, then they were in the wrong place and not keeping up with the game. It's as simple as that.

Adge · Oct 22, 2018

skybluegod said:
Really well I'm almost 100% that's a load of bullshit, I work with Level 3, who's first ever lesson was, that you can be taught all of the running angles, and positions, but if you aren't in the position to see the most critical parts of the game you are in the wrong position. Yes you are right he didn't 100% know that it had gone over the line,and yes you are right he cannot give it unless he sees it. But that is HIS FAULT, and he must take the blame for that.

Not bullshit at all. What’s his name, I may have worked with him myself. Is he in the Birminghamfa or Warwickshire area? If he is I would probably know him aswell. If you are in the area too our paths could have crossed. What level are you/did you manage to get too?

letsallsingtogether · Oct 22, 2018

Nick said:
If the officials couldn't see, then they were in the wrong place and not keeping up with the game. It's as simple as that.

Correct.
How many times do you see the linesman not up with play......

Adge · Oct 22, 2018

Nick said:
If the officials couldn't see, then they were in the wrong place and not keeping up with the game. It's as simple as that.

In your eyes, yes. The reason being is you are blinkered and just looking at it as a (Ccfc) fan. They will never be able to do any right in a fans eyes.

Nick · Oct 22, 2018

Adge said:
In your eyes, yes. The reason being is you are blinkered and just looking at it as a (Ccfc) fan. They will never be able to do any right in a fans eyes.

How is it anything to do with being blinkered? If the officials can't see what is happening then they are in the wrong position.

Their player could have blocked it on the line with his hand and if the ref wasn't looking and the players body was blocking the linos view then they were in the wrong position to see what is going on. Watching it back, there ref had a pretty clear line of sight to it, maybe he just wasn't paying attention/

It isn't that complicated.

Adge · Oct 22, 2018

Nick said:
How is it anything to do with being blinkered? If the officials can't see what is happening then they are in the wrong position.

Their player could have blocked it on the line with his hand and if the ref wasn't looking and the players body was blocking the linos view then they were in the wrong position to see what is going on.

It isn't that complicated.

Jeez! They were not in the wrong position! Get a grasp of that firstly.
Secondly, sometimes an incident will occur in a game of football in a split second such as this DESPITE officials doing everything they can by being up with play and in the correct zone/position. It happens.

Just as a side note, were the officials in last season’s 2 playoff games against Notts County up with play/in the right positions?

Nick · Oct 22, 2018

Adge said:
Jeez! They were not in the wrong position! Get a grasp of that firstly.
Secondly, sometimes an incident will occur in a game of football in a split second such as this DESPITE officials doing everything they can by being up with play and in the correct zone/position. It happens.

Just as a side note, were the officials in last season’s 2 playoff games against Notts County up with play/in the right positions?

If they can't see something, they are surely in the wrong position? It isn't as if we are talking about something Burge was doing where it was completely off the ball.

It was hardly split second either, all the players saw it (including ones not far from the ref). Their fans saw it, our player who took the corner saw it.

Not too sure why you are trying to claim bias, it wasn't a foul on Bayliss against Notts County in the first leg. The same as the Southend fans were saying how it was clearly over the line.

Nick · Oct 22, 2018

The top one shows where the ref is standing, clear view to it.

Isn't as if there's a massive crowd blocking his view is it? Surely he doesn't stand still, he moves about to be able to follow the ball?

We aren't talking a high powered shot like Lampards where it bounces quicker than the eye can process.

The lino should also be looking at the defenders foot, how far in the goal did it need to go to clear it? His trailing arm is near enough touching the net, his leg goes right back.

His front leg is just on the line, so if the ball is behind it then it is over the line.

It's all well and good saying "human error". It would probably be human error if I tried to tackle Luke Thomas and ended up putting him in the stand because I would be so much slower. Does that mean it shouldn't be a foul?

Issue is that refs don't have to answer to their mistakes.

robbiethemole · Oct 22, 2018

SlowerThanPlatt said:
Just looking at some data from the excellent Ben Mayhew.

Oldest average age of starting line up (in order):
Wycombe - 17th
Southend - 12th
Burton - 14th
Bristol Rovers - 20th
Rochdale - 16th
Fleetwood - 11th

Youngest average age of starting line up (in order):
Barnsley - 5th
Walsall - 8th
Coventry - 11th
Portsmouth - 1st
Charlton - 9th
Peterborough - 2nd

does this mean other teams should give us a 2 goal lead cos we're playing with youths????

Adge · Oct 22, 2018

Nick said:
View attachment 10774 View attachment 10775

The top one shows where the ref is standing, clear view to it.

Isn't as if there's a massive crowd blocking his view is it? Surely he doesn't stand still, he moves about to be able to follow the ball?

We aren't talking a high powered shot like Lampards where it bounces quicker than the eye can process.

The lino should also be looking at the defenders foot, how far in the goal did it need to go to clear it? His trailing arm is near enough touching the net, his leg goes right back.

View attachment 10776

His front leg is just on the line, so if the ball is behind it then it is over the line.

It's all well and good saying "human error". It would probably be human error if I tried to tackle Luke Thomas and ended up putting him in the stand because I would be so much slower. Does that mean it shouldn't be a foul?

Issue is that refs don't have to answer to their mistakes.

So the issue has gone from “They are/were in the wrong position” to “they do not have to answer for their mistakes”? They do have to answer to their mistakes-it’s just not done in public.

Adge · Oct 22, 2018

Nick said:
If they can't see something, they are surely in the wrong position? It isn't as if we are talking about something Burge was doing where it was completely off the ball.

It was hardly split second either, all the players saw it (including ones not far from the ref). Their fans saw it, our player who took the corner saw it.

Not too sure why you are trying to claim bias, it wasn't a foul on Bayliss against Notts County in the first leg. The same as the Southend fans were saying how it was clearly over the line.

So, tell us where they should be standing then? And I’ll save you the “in the best/correct position to see” line.

Nick · Oct 22, 2018

Adge said:
So, tell us where they should be standing then? And I’ll save you the “in the best/correct position to see” line.

The ref moves so he can see the ball and what's happening. Common sense really?

I've screenshoted his position, why didn't he see?

Maybe common sense doesn't count?

Refs need to be accountable for their decisions, "human error" isn't really a reason.

Officials being way behind the game happens far too often, there was the game the other week where the ref and both officials all looked middle aged and over weight. All struggled to keep up and were miles behind play.

Sky Blue Harry H · Oct 22, 2018

Adge said:
So, tell us where they should be standing then? And I’ll save you the “in the best/correct position to see” line.

In the best position to see

Sky Blue Harry H · Oct 22, 2018

As it was at Southend, perhaps the lino could have used this?

dazed&confused · Oct 22, 2018

I might be in a minority of one, but I don't think either of Nick's screen shots that include the Southend defender sitting on his arse with the ball near his right knee, 'prove' that all of the ball was across the line. Sorry. It's close, I'll give you that, but not definitive. The ball being in the air is the problem. Perspective plays dangerous games. I'd need to see a photo from above to be sure.

Nick · Oct 22, 2018

dazed&confused said:
I might be in a minority of one, but I don't think either of Nick's screen shots that include the Southend defender sitting on his arse with the ball near his right knee, 'prove' that all of the ball was across the line. Sorry. It's close, I'll give you that, but not definitive. The ball being in the air is the problem. Perspective plays dangerous games. I'd need to see a photo from above to be sure.

Have a look at the ones further back. It's pretty clear

dazed&confused · Oct 22, 2018

Nick said:
Have a look at the ones further back. It's pretty clear

Which post number is that?

Johnnythespider · Oct 22, 2018

Nick said:
The ref moves so he can see the ball and what's happening. Common sense really?

I've screenshoted his position, why didn't he see?

Maybe common sense doesn't count?

Refs need to be accountable for their decisions, "human error" isn't really a reason.

Officials being way behind the game happens far too often, there was the game the other week where the ref and both officials all looked middle aged and over weight. All struggled to keep up and were miles behind play.

The inexcusable thing with this is it wasn't a split second thing where the ball bounced down behind the line and out again, the player on the line has had to lift his leg back over the ball in order to kick it out. The referee is in a good position to see this and that is why this is such a shocking and poor decision, regardless of who is playing. If he hasn't seen it from where he is standing he should be sent straight to Specsavers.

Adge · Oct 22, 2018

Johnnythespider said:
The inexcusable thing with this is it wasn't a split second thing where the ball bounced down behind the line and out again, the player on the line has had to lift his leg back over the ball in order to kick it out. The referee is in a good position to see this and that is why this is such a shocking and poor decision, regardless of who is playing. If he hasn't seen it from where he is standing he should be sent straight to Specsavers.

And I’ll say it again-it’s the assistant who will be giving it if it’s over the line, not the referee.

Johhny Blue · Oct 22, 2018

dazed&confused said:
I might be in a minority of one, but I don't think either of Nick's screen shots that include the Southend defender sitting on his arse with the ball near his right knee, 'prove' that all of the ball was across the line. Sorry. It's close, I'll give you that, but not definitive. The ball being in the air is the problem. Perspective plays dangerous games. I'd need to see a photo from above to be sure.

Minority of two.
I was going to post something similar but didn’t get around to it. I have watched highlights over and over and seen all the pictures and the claims of “two yards over” are ridiculous. Without VAR it’s tough for the ref (or lino) to be 100% sure.
For the record I’m not saying it wasn’t in, just that I haven’t seen anything 100% conclusive.
Bottom line is buttefly sneezes and all that the game could have been totally different if it had been allowed. Let’s take the points and move on.

CovInEssex · Oct 22, 2018

Anyone else not fussed because we won anyway?

Adge · Oct 22, 2018

[QUOTE="Nick, post: 1630100, member: 1"]The ref moves so he can see the ball and what's happening. Common sense really?

I've screenshoted his position, why didn't he see?

Maybe common sense doesn't count?

Refs need to be accountable for their decisions, "human error" isn't really a reason.

Officials being way behind the game happens far too often, there was the game the other week where the ref and both officials all looked middle aged and over weight. All struggled to keep up and were miles behind play.[/QUOTE]
Wrong. You think the referee is just looking at the ball? He is looking at the ball aswell as the bigger picture in the penalty area to see if there are other infringements also. Hence why he is standing on the edge of the area to get an overall view.

Sky Blue Harry H · Oct 22, 2018

CovInEssex said:
Anyone else not fussed because we won anyway?

Must have been that bang on your head mate, they equalised straight after you were led off the pitch 2-2 !!

CovInEssex · Oct 22, 2018

Sky Blue Harry H said:
Must have been that bang on your head mate, they equalised straight after you were led off the pitch 2-2 !!

Haha when the old bill were giving me a telling off down the side walkway bit all the southend fans were giving me abuse and a couple of them said "we scored straight after you mug"

Also, on their forum there's a couple people suggesting we could well be top 6

Nick · Oct 22, 2018

Adge said:
[QUOTE="Nick, post: 1630100, member: 1"]The ref moves so he can see the ball and what's happening. Common sense really?

I've screenshoted his position, why didn't he see?

Maybe common sense doesn't count?

Refs need to be accountable for their decisions, "human error" isn't really a reason.

Officials being way behind the game happens far too often, there was the game the other week where the ref and both officials all looked middle aged and over weight. All struggled to keep up and were miles behind play.

Wrong. You think the referee is just looking at the ball? He is looking at the ball aswell as the bigger picture in the penalty area to see if there are other infringements also. Hence why he is standing on the edge of the area to get an overall view.[/QUOTE]Yes, he missed it. Simple as that

Doyle was out by the lino and he saw it.

He might be well looking at the bigger picture, he missed a goal.

dazed&confused · Oct 22, 2018

Johhny Blue said:
Minority of two.
I was going to post something similar but didn’t get around to it. I have watched highlights over and over and seen all the pictures and the claims of “two yards over” are ridiculous. Without VAR it’s tough for the ref (or lino) to be 100% sure.
For the record I’m not saying it wasn’t in, just that I haven’t seen anything 100% conclusive.
Bottom line is buttefly sneezes and all that the game could have been totally different if it had been allowed. Let’s take the points and move on.

Exactly. But, I will add, had the positions been reversed and had that goal been awarded against us, I certainly wouldn't be sitting here now thinking, 'rats, but, hey, you know what, that was unquestionably the right decision from the ref as the ball was obviously over the line'.

Grendel · Oct 22, 2018

Clive Allen anyone?

Adge · Oct 22, 2018

Nick said:
Wrong. You think the referee is just looking at the ball? He is looking at the ball aswell as the bigger picture in the penalty area to see if there are other infringements also. Hence why he is standing on the edge of the area to get an overall view.

Yes, he missed it. Simple as that

Doyle was out by the lino and he saw it.

He might be well looking at the bigger picture, he missed a goal.[/QUOTE]
Last I’m saying on it-he didn’t miss it and would have seen where the ball was (near the goal line). The assistant didn’t miss it either and again would have seen the ball near the goal line. They were not 100% sure the ball had crossed the goal line therefore can’t award a goal.

Johhny Blue · Oct 22, 2018

CovInEssex said:
Anyone else not fussed because we won anyway?

Everyone except Tom Davies

LilleSkyBlue · Oct 22, 2018

Johhny Blue said:
Everyone except Tom Davies

About Tom Davies: what was he doing for their goal? Seemed to be cantering back jerkily then slowing down and watching as Hopper skinned Willis and fired it across. Could he not have made more of an effort to block the shot or get to the goal line?

Otherwise he had a very good game.

Match Thread Southend United vs. Coventry City Match Thread - Saturday 20th Oct (2 Viewers)

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