Stand up if you've never watched Wasps (13 Viewers)

Sisu wanted the freehold but it wasn't available so they moved us to increase the likelihood of it being available. This was the ownership model they preferred so it was fine to temporarily move us to Northampton for business purposes. Glad we've cleared that up tony.

This notion of wasps are here, get on with it. I assume that applies to sisu too?

The double standards amongst are fan base is shocking. If you put sisu before a sentence, it's wrong. Put wasps before a sentence and the excuses are flying round. That isn't a defence of sisu it's asking for consistency.

As fans who had a club ripped from it's home. You would think we could manage to all be consistent in condemning another club being moved. Maybe it's just literally because it was sisu.

So TF said we were building a new ground, wouldn't take on the loan etc. That is why CCFC fans were ok with the sale to wasps? That we all believed the stadium was to be built so was ok for wasps to have ours? That is comedy gold dongo. Our fans didn't cause a riot as it was getting one up on sisu. Which is what they appear most concerned about, sadly.

chiefdave said:

Why are you putting additional conditions on it? That's not how it should work, an owners fancies a certain ground arrangement so they up and move across the country.

Stop making excuses for them. The primary consideration should be the history of the club and its supoorters not what type of stadium deal the owner desires.

When QPR move out of Loftus Road will you be happy for SISU to move us there as they desire stadium ownership? Nobody in their right mind would say it is OK for us to move out of Coventry just because the owners want ownership rather than any other type of ground agreement yet your using that reasoning to justify claims Wasps had no other option than to move to Coventry.

BTW as you are convinced Wasps had no chance of moving to Brentford who do you think the three rugby clubs Brentford said they were in talks with about 50 / 50 ownership of the new stadium were? I would suggest Wasps were one of the three as pretty much every press report from the time puts them as the favourites.

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I’m not putting additional conditions on anything. They always stated that they wanted to move away from the match day rental model much as we have. Difference being they took the opportunity when it arose.

I’m not making excuses for anything, just dealing with the reality. You’re trying to invent an alternative reality thinking it’s backing your argument when in fact when you strip it back it diminishes your argument and it’s very easily stripped back.

Not sure where you’re getting 50/50 ownership with a Rugby club from. I can’t find anything. Do you have a link?

SISU aren’t moving us anywhere as they would never fund it. They wouldn’t fund the purchase of something local which they’re now arguing was sold on the cheap so they aren’t going to fund a move to London, Belfast or anywhere else. If you have to keep inventing fantasy to make an argument you don’t have an argument. Which is all you’ve done. Invent fantasy to win an argument. Make an argument based on facts and I’ll happily concede any point you’re trying to make, however doing it on fantasy just makes you a fantasist.

SkyBlueZack said:

Sisu wanted the freehold but it wasn't available so they moved us to increase the likelihood of it being available. This was the ownership model they preferred so it was fine to temporarily move us to Northampton for business purposes. Glad we've cleared that up tony.

This notion of wasps are here, get on with it. I assume that applies to sisu too?

The double standards amongst are fan base is shocking. If you put sisu before a sentence, it's wrong. Put wasps before a sentence and the excuses are flying round. That isn't a defence of sisu it's asking for consistency.

As fans who had a club ripped from it's home. You would think we could manage to all be consistent in condemning another club being moved. Maybe it's just literally because it was sisu.

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Ha ha ha. Yeah OK that’s exactly what I said. Not. You’re another fantasist. A poor mans Grendull at best.

SkyBlueZack said:

So TF said we were building a new ground, wouldn't take on the loan etc. That is why CCFC fans were ok with the sale to wasps? That we all believed the stadium was to be built so was ok for wasps to have ours? That is comedy gold dongo. Our fans didn't cause a riot as it was getting one up on sisu. Which is what they appear most concerned about, sadly.

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Ironically the only ones who did do anything are the most vocal ones against sisu. The only ones you could say welcomed them with open arms were the ones who are more vocal blaming everyone else. They protested wasps move here as much as they protested our move to Northampton. Consistent at least. You’re claim of anything to get one up on sisu is just empty rhetoric and nonsense and not a reflection of our fan base. I’m sure if you look hard enough you’d find some individuals that think that way but they don’t represent the majority view point regardless of how you try to manipulate it so they do. Perhaps you’re ashamed at your own impotence at protesting the sale to wasps so you’re shifting the blame. Who knows.

skybluetony176 said:

Ha ha ha. Yeah OK that’s exactly what I said. Not. You’re another fantasist. A poor mans Grendull at best.

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It is what you said. You said Wasps couldn't stay in London because the ownership model they wanted wasn't available. I applied that logic to SISU and Northampton. This is exactly what I mean about double standards. It's one rule for Wasps and different for SISU. Wasps had to move as they needed more than match day rental but it's ok for CCFC to be match day rental to Wasps. The only reason you have for that is SISU incompetence. That reasoning is as bad as SISU's incompetence. The council only put £10million in, CCFC paid the same in rent and brought in Rioch as sponsors and we got fuck all for it. You and others are ok with that because of SISU and their behaviour. I'm not and there is many others like me as this thread has proved.

Nothing fantasist about it. Ashamed at my own impotence? No, didn't agree moving to Northampton, don't agree with Wasps being here. I didn't go to Northampton to watch, I haven't been to the Ricoh.

I think we should be very grateful to the Northampton public for having loyalty to their two historic clubs rather than jumping on the bandwagon like the people of Coventry have.

Grendel said:

The petition reached 2,700

Wasps fans threaten weekend protests over club's move to Coventry's Ricoh Arena

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Threaten....But did they take place? The protests were a whimper at best. They were pathetic. Coventry fans have been far more outraged on their behalf. If you go on their forum they think Coventry fans and especially on this forum are a bunch of Ludites and that is putting it politely.

chiefdave said:

How does everyone else afford it? They were offered use of the Brentford Community Stadium which is just over a mile from their original ground but turned it down. London Irish will be moving there instead.

How have clubs like Barnet and AFC Wimbledon managed it, not exactly clubs renowned for being loaded.

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And who cares if they could afford it or not. They're a London team, not a Midlands one.

stupot07 said:

Its actually hilarious watching people trying to morally justify wasps moving to 90 miles to Coventry. Lolz

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

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And even funnier when people like LAST and Tony desperately defend the move and Wasps constantly even though they apparently don't care for them.

From the Independent.


There was a chance for Wasps to return near to where they were born and bred, but they decided against it. A Centre of Sports Excellence is being planned for Borehamwood, about 10 miles north of Wasps' old home (now a housing estate) in Sudbury, near Wembley.

The Premiership club were invited in as partners by the landowners, Legal & General, and the local Hertsmere Borough Council, with a 15,000-seater stadium worth £22 million and a hotel on site for added revenue. But Wasps wanted to own and control it. End of deal.

Another option was to continue ground-sharing with a football club, as Wasps and half-a-dozen others have done since rugby's Year Zero of 1995, when the sport went open and a little old clubhouse and homely single grandstand wouldn't cut it for a "customer experience".

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inRead invented by Teads
Among the many sports clubs jockeying for position around London, in some of the world's most expensive real estate, Brentford FC have a stadium planned near Chiswick. Again, Wasps could not see the point. They wanted a better business plan.

So Wasps are off to Coventry, led by two men who have been involved with the club for barely two years: Derek Richardson, the Irish owner, and Nick Eastwood, the former Rugby Football Union financial director, who is chief executive.


There is another Wasps, of course – the amateur rugby club based in Acton, west London, who are already looking for new tenants to use the training facilities currently being rented by the professionals. For the avoidance of confusion, let's call the amateurs Wasps and the professionals Pro Wasps.

Eastwood has spent the week explaining the decision, unapologetically after the fact. Richardson, who is said to dislike the limelight, has yet to present himself to the press; perhaps he will do so when Leinster, where his rugby heart is said to lie, visit Coventry in January. Even though Pro Wasps are taking on a £13.4m loan at the Ricoh Arena to add to their existing losses, and they will need to spend on training facilities, marketing and the playing squad, they are confident in their gamble.

It is a trifecta based on rising TV revenues, a crowd ready and waiting in the Coventry area, and ancillary revenue streams at the Arena making the whole thing workable. In this Sky Blue thinking, Eastwood is predicting to break even in "three or four years".

If it comes across as ad hoc – Pro Wasps' first match at Coventry is in mid-December – then it is only in keeping with the knee-jerk nature of English rugby. Year Zero 1995 was when a coherent plan for the professional game might have been made. All we got was a mad rush to jam as many competitions into the season as possible – and if the players are smashed to smithereens, make sure there are doctors at every match to pick up the pieces.

The Rugby Football Union favour light-touch regulation. Nominally the governing body, the RFU describe the Premiership clubs as "independent". They have had nothing to say on the Coventry move other than to confirm, if anyone asked, that as long as Pro Wasps keep their academy licence in the London area, they are not flouting the regulation designed to stop a club being bought in one place and parachuted into another, treading on others' toes and avoiding the tedious hard work of fighting upwards through the leagues.

So while Pro Wasps move to Coventry, we have Pro London Welsh playing in Oxford with very few Welshmen, and Pro London Irish, similarly, employing a cosmopolitan squad in Reading. There is no Premiership club in the rugby hotbed of Cornwall; Pro Sale Sharks have lost supporters, not gained them, by moving 20 miles from Stockport to Salford, but still they strive with a vision of representing the North-west. In Leeds, we have Yorkshire Carnegie: a club or a county?

English rugby is what you might call an unplanned economy, but perhaps we should take solace in it reflecting the glory of the game itself, forever teetering between the ordered and the chaotic.

SkyBlueZack said:

It is what you said. You said Wasps couldn't stay in London because the ownership model they wanted wasn't available. I applied that logic to SISU and Northampton. This is exactly what I mean about double standards. It's one rule for Wasps and different for SISU. Wasps had to move as they needed more than match day rental but it's ok for CCFC to be match day rental to Wasps. The only reason you have for that is SISU incompetence. That reasoning is as bad as SISU's incompetence. The council only put £10million in, CCFC paid the same in rent and brought in Rioch as sponsors and we got fuck all for it. You and others are ok with that because of SISU and their behaviour. I'm not and there is many others like me as this thread has proved.

Nothing fantasist about it. Ashamed at my own impotence? No, didn't agree moving to Northampton, don't agree with Wasps being here. I didn't go to Northampton to watch, I haven't been to the Ricoh.

I think we should be very grateful to the Northampton public for having loyalty to their two historic clubs rather than jumping on the bandwagon like the people of Coventry have.

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Again you’re fantasising. I never said it’s OK for wasps to have ownership and CCFC not.

I’ve never said it’s OK for wasps to move here in pursuit of ownership. Again you’re fantasising. It is the reality of what they did and fantasising that they had opportunity to do the same in London doesn’t make it worse that they did move here and isn’t needed because moving here is about as bad as it could be for us and for their historic fan base. It couldn’t be any worse and you’re not going to win arguments or make the situation look worse with fantasy. It is what it is and that’s bad enough. I don’t understand why someone who’s an intelligent poster in general (I’m talking about Dave here not you or Grendull) has to invent context to his argument. Especially when it’s not needed.

I’ve never said we had a good rental agreement at the Ricoh so again you’re fantasising.

torchomatic said:

And even funnier when people like LAST and Tony desperately defend the move and Wasps constantly even though they apparently don't care for them.

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You do realise LAST physically protested the move? I know you do so don’t understand why you’re pretending you don’t.

Haven’t defended anything. Them moving here is despicable on every level. Never said otherwise. Just not going to invent scenarios to justify that stance. It’s also not needed. You just need to point out the facts to make it look despicable, that’s enough. You want to try and spin pointing that out as a defence. Why?

torchomatic said:

The Premiership club were invited in as partners by the landowners, Legal & General, and the local Hertsmere Borough Council, with a 15,000-seater stadium worth £22 million and a hotel on site for added revenue. But Wasps wanted to own and control it. End of deal.

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That'll be excused, but if you exchange the Wasps for SISU, it wouldn't be. Hypocrites. Hypocrites everywhere.

skybluetony176 said:

Again you’re fantasising. I never said it’s OK for wasps to have ownership and CCFC not.

I’ve never said it’s OK for wasps to move here in pursuit of ownership. Again you’re fantasising. It is the reality of what they did and fantasising that they had opportunity to do the same in London doesn’t make it worse that they did move here and isn’t needed because moving here is about as bad as it could be for us and for their historic fan base. It couldn’t be any worse and you’re not going to win arguments or make the situation look worse with fantasy. It is what it is and that’s bad enough. I don’t understand why someone who’s an intelligent poster in general (I’m talking about Dave here not you or Grendull) has to invent context to his argument. Especially when it’s not needed.

I’ve never said we had a good rental agreement at the Ricoh so again you’re fantasising.

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You have said Wasps couldn't stay in London as there wasn't an ownership model that suited them. You keep excusing them though, doing a grand job.

SkyBlueZack said:

You have said Wasps couldn't stay in London as there wasn't an ownership model that suited them. You keep excusing them though, doing a grand job.

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I’m not excusing them. That is the reality. Torch has just provided another link that confirms that. I don’t like it that they moved here, I don’t agree with them moving here but the reality is there wasn’t an ownership model in London that their owners were willing to get on board with. No amount of pretending otherwise is going to change that. That’s the only point I’ve made and that isn’t justifying either them buying the Ricoh lease or the council selling it to them. Like I keep repeatedly saying no one needs to invent anything to justify not wanting them here. The reality is enough.

And our owners weren't willing to get on board with what ACL were offering, so moved to Northampton, is that ok?

Oh, and Torch's link didn't confirm what you were saying either. It says they were invited as partners to a 15000 stadium with a hotel for additional revenue, so pretty similar to the Ricoh. They wouldn't own or control it though, so weren't interested. Sound familiar?

Also puts an end to any notion of being partners with Wasps as they have previously turned one down, admittedly if shit hits the fan, they might want someone to bail them out but they have no interest in a mutually beneficial arrangement, just one that suits them.

SkyBlueZack said:

And our owners weren't willing to get on board with what ACL were offering, so moved to Northampton, is that ok?

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Clearly Tony thinks it is as the business model didn’t suit the owners of the club.

SkyBlueZack said:

You have said Wasps couldn't stay in London as there wasn't an ownership model that suited them. You keep excusing them though, doing a grand job.

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Of course they could stay in London, they could have played on a park pitch.
The point you can't seem to take in is that like all clubs you need to survive financially first.
Common sense would dictate that if there was a better option in London they would have taken it.
You don't move a team from its fans without serious consideration (unless your Sisu)

I suggest aspirations of remaining a top club came into it as well and hence the need to have other income streams rather than just rent.
CCFC owners don't seem to have those aspirations hence we are just ticking over as cannon fodder in L2.

This is not justifying it for them but just pointing out the logic as I see it.
From my point of view I enjoy watching them play as well which is something I struggle with at the football.

italiahorse said:

Of course they could stay in London, they could have played on a park pitch.
The point you can't seem to take in is that like all clubs you need to survive financially first.
Common sense would dictate that if there was a better option in London they would have taken it.
You don't move a team from its fans without serious consideration (unless your Sisu)

I suggest aspirations of remaining a top club came into it as well and hence the need to have other income streams rather than just rent.
CCFC owners don't seem to have those aspirations hence we are just ticking over as cannon fodder in L2.

This is not justifying it for them but just pointing out the logic as I see it.
From my point of view I enjoy watching them play as well which is something I struggle with at the football.

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Would it be acceptable to move CCFC if it meant that we would thrive financially as a top club?

Grendel said:

Clearly Tony thinks it is as the business model didn’t suit the owners of the club.

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Clearly Tony doesn’t as he’s repeatedly said that just as he’s repeatedly said it doesn’t justify wasps moving here. That’s why I boycott wasps and always will and that’s why I boycotted Northampton. Did you take that same principle on both scenarios? No you didn’t. Maybe you’re one of the hypocrites Zacks talking about.

You just seemed to have perfectly demonstrated my point without realising it. To be fair to Zack he’s at least confirmed like myself he has the same principle of not attending Northampton or wasps.

Zack. I apologise for calling you a poor mans Grendull. You have at least demonstrated a consistent principle unlike hypocrite Grendull.

Sick Boy said:

Would it be acceptable to move CCFC if it meant that we would thrive financially as a top club?

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It doesn’t work though. MK Dons accounts tell us that. It doesn’t work financially or as a vehicle to promote you to a top club. So it ain’t going to happen for that reason alone before you even get into the argument about whether SISU would finance it in the first place.

skybluetony176 said:

Clearly Tony doesn’t as he’s repeatedly said that just as he’s repeatedly said it doesn’t justify wasps moving here. That’s why I boycott wasps and always will and that’s why I boycotted Northampton. Did you take that same principle on both scenarios? No you didn’t. Maybe you’re one of the hypocrites Zacks talking about.

You just seemed to have perfectly demonstrated my point without realising it. To be fair to Zack he’s at least confirmed like myself he has the same principle of not attending Northampton or wasps.

Zack. I apologise for calling you a poor mans Grendull. You have at least demonstrated a consistent principle unlike hypocrite Grendull.

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I like it when you attempt to come across as superior. It just highlights your stupidity and inferiority even more.

Grendel said:

I like it when you attempt to come across as superior. It just highlights your stupidity and inferiority even more.

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Snigger. Did you demonstrate a consistent principle like me and Zack then? A simple yes or no will be fine. It’s no isn’t it? Whether you agree with me or not my principles are at least consistent. Attempt doesn’t come into it.

skybluetony176 said:

Snigger. Did you demonstrate a consistent principle like me and Zack then? A simple yes or no will be fine. It’s no isn’t it? Whether you agree with me or not my principles are at least consistent. Attempt doesn’t come into it.

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Oh yes you certainly are consistent Tony I will give you that

Grendel said:

Oh yes you certainly are consistent Tony I will give you that

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I’ll take that as a no. We all knew it was a no anyway. Don’t need to make myself look superior to you when you willingly line yourself up with double principles to look inferior.

Sick Boy said:

Would it be acceptable to move CCFC if it meant that we would thrive financially as a top club?

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I wouldn't follow them.
They would have to change there name so I wouldn't relate to it.
Wasps reverted to their original name from London Wasps which means they can pick up fans from anywhere.
Same reason that if they changed there name to Coventry Wasps they would loose a lot of the original fans.

skybluetony176 said:

I’ll take that as a no. We all knew it was a no anyway.

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The move to Sixfields was a temporary move approved by the Football League.

You’ve spent more time and effort justifying wasps position here than you’ve ever spent on a match thread related to ccfc

I wonder why - DIY on Monday by any chance?

Never attended a Wasps game in my life at the Ricoh, never will. The only occasion I would watch a Wasps game would be if the played CRFC at Butts Park Arena. Wasps moved the club away from their loyal supporters, nothing short of disgusting.

Never went to Sixfields, for the same principle above. Disgrace that the owners of CCFC did what the did and led us all to believe that a new stadium would be built. Built on the back of an agenda of court actions.

What I do not understand is, how can people slate Wasps, but attended Sixfields? Hypocrisy? justifying it by stating it was approved by the football league is laughable. At the time the approval was based on the owners of CCFC building a new stadium. We all knew that was never going to happen. Wasps move to Coventry was ratified by the Professional Game Board (PGB). That approval (Including the RFU) must mean it is acceptable?

Rugby Football Union approval

skybluetony176 said:

Didn’t Barnet take possession of the site though back in 2006? Richardson didn’t take ownership of Wasps until 2013 so it was never an option.

Dave, if you want to prove a point you need to be doing it with reality not fiction.

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chiefdave said:

I'm not saying that specific site, I'm saying it is possible. Other teams mange it. They even manage it incredibly close to Wasps traditional home.

Anyway Wasps moved temporarily to High Wycombe in 2002 so could easily have got involved with any plans from that point on as other Premiership sides have done.

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You are right Dave, some people choose to ignore the reality like Saracens move back to London, as all they want to believe is its fiction.

italiahorse said:

Of course they could stay in London, they could have played on a park pitch.
The point you can't seem to take in is that like all clubs you need to survive financially first.
Common sense would dictate that if there was a better option in London they would have taken it.
You don't move a team from its fans without serious consideration (unless your Sisu) .

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How did Saracens manage to do it then?

chickentikkamasala said:

led us all to believe that a new stadium would be built.

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Well... tried to*

Wasps are a grubby opportunist bunch of carpet-bagging cunts.......I hope their franchise fails and all those greedy selfish wankers who enabled them by buying up the bonds lose their money.

I have never been to a wasps game....

I have seen wales v all blacks and also Pontypool v Llanelli when i was a kid .....way back before the game turned pro.....but I have little to no interest in watching either code of rugby these days......

Cov v Pontypool was always one of the bigger fixtures in the country, back in the day...

Moff said:

How did Saracens manage to do it then?

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Massive debts and an owner that throws money in and guarantees the growing £45M debt.
A ground that has no major additional incomes and no plan to pay off the debt.

Generally Midfield said:

Seems dead simple to me - you either believe that (a) clubs are rooted in a particular area and should stay there or (b) you say clubs can move wherever they like. If you believe in (a) you oppose CCFC going to Nton and Wasps coming to Cov. If you believe (b) then it's fine for Wasps to move here and sisu can move CCFC wherever they want.

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That’s a neat summary of the point, and if it was that simple there would be absolutely no room for argument. But it’s not, because not all moves are exactly the same.

Many of the most vehement “anti-franchise, anti-Wasps” posters on here seem to think that London rugby clubs playing in places like Reading, Watford and High Wycombe is perfectly natural and OK, and doesn’t count as moving. Or Wasps could have moved from High Wycombe to West Ham to retain their identity. Some even seem comfortable with the outskirts of Birmingham as a location for the Sky Blues – indeed one prominent poster described the NEC as a “perfect” venue for Coventry City! How’s that for anti-franchise credentials?

This regional concept of belonging is a bit nebulous for me. Surely it’s not simply about travel time, how much parking there is and whether you can drive there in your company car. It’s about whether a club belongs in a specific place or not, and whether their fans care enough to stand up for that. Wasps supporters (after more than 10 years way outside the M25) didn’t, so I can’t see a lot of point fretting endlessly on their behalf in Christmas week three years later. Where does it get us? However, through the Sixfields episode our fans demonstrated beyond doubt that Coventry City can only play in Coventry. If people don’t think there’s a difference, fair enough.

In answer to the OP, I’ve never watched Wasps, but it’s not out of moral superiority. I just can’t see myself going to rugby matches. But IMO the people who go deserve to enjoy themselves without being subjected to vicious character assassination.