Starting League One, on -10 points (2 Viewers)

TommyAtkins · Apr 16, 2012

coundonskyblue said:
"SISU haven't lied."

Basically your saying all these people lied:

Jay Tabb
Ray Ranson
Westwood
Mick McCarthy (When we were trying to get Eastwood on loan)
Sammy Clingan's agent
Marlon King
Gary Hoffman

and Sisu were telling the truth on every occasion when dealing these?

So did Wayne Rooney and his agent lie when he moved to Man Utd.

On one hand, we can say that SISU lied - but if they did, then they did exactly the same as every other person involved in football transfers.

Or on the other hand, we can say that someone of the individuals you mentioned lied.

Ask Andy Thorn - he will tell you that Marlon King lied to him and lied to Cov fans. Even Marlon King's agent subsequently admitted that King has promised to sign for Cov but that the agent secured a better deal.

And why take Ranson and Hoffman's word? Ransom promised to leave this club in a better condition then when he found it - did he lie?

coundonskyblue · Apr 16, 2012

TommyAtkins said:
So did Wayne Rooney and his agent lie when he moved to Man Utd.

On one hand, we can say that SISU lied - but if they did, then they did exactly the same as every other person involved in football transfers.

Or on the other hand, we can say that someone of the individuals you mentioned lied.

Ask Andy Thorn - he will tell you that Marlon King lied to him and lied to Cov fans. Even Marlon King's agent subsequently admitted that King has promised to sign for Cov but that the agent secured a better deal.

And why take Ranson and Hoffman's word? Ransom promised to leave this club in a better condition then when he found it - did he lie?

All those people there may or may not have lied. However I find it very unlikely that all of them were all 100% in the wrong when dealing with Sisu.

In some cases the individuals may have been lying and on other occasions it would have been Sisu lying. There is always 2 sides to every argument, so frankly to say Sisu havent ever lied once is nonsense.

Nonleagueherewecome · Apr 16, 2012

TommyAtkins said:
Come on, who hasnt been treated like that at any ground.

And don't forget: ACL determine the rules, not SISU. They might be influenced by SISU but then again, they might not.

Pretty sure the "No anti-SISU banners" policy was actually something to do with..er, blimey, what was their name again..someone mentioned it just now..ah, SISU, that was them!!!

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

TommyAtkins · Apr 16, 2012

6 Generations said:
'Fans forget'?? I don't forget. In fact i've spent 46 years of my life not forgetting to follow my club, come what may. 50 of my 53 years in existence have witnessed my club being in the top 2 tiers of the football pyramid. We can hardly be described as naturally progressing to our true level of division 3.

Fans, sir do not forget. Please try to enlighten me on Tim Fisher's statement live on BBC Radio. Did he tell the truth?Yes or no, please.

We came from Division Three. Perhaps, in the future, our time in the top flight will be seen as nothing more than a (prolonged) aberration.

I wonder how Luton fans recall their time in the top flight of English football.

We have no divine right to any status and to date, we have done nothing but try to retain or regain that ststatus with money we don't have.

As for Fisher, I don't see any evidence that he lied. And if he did lie, he did nothing different from Sillett, Hill, Richardson, Robins etc etc in making encouraging statements to the press.

I seem to recall Robins "promising" we would be the Real Madrid of English football. Did he lie?

Or do we make a difference when we judge people based on whether or not we like them?

coundonskyblue · Apr 16, 2012

TommyAtkins said:
6 Generations said:

'Fans forget'?? I don't forget. In fact i've spent 46 years of my life not forgetting to follow my club, come what may. 50 of my 53 years in existence have witnessed my club being in the top 2 tiers of the football pyramid. We can hardly be described as naturally progressing to our true level of division 3.

Fans, sir do not forget. Please try to enlighten me on Tim Fisher's statement live on BBC Radio. Did he tell the truth?Yes or no, please.

We came from Division Three. Perhaps, in the future, our time in the top flight will be seen as nothing more than a (prolonged) aberration.

I wonder how Luton fans recall their time in the top flight of English football.

We have no divine right to any status and to date, we have done nothing but try to retain or regain that ststatus with money we don't have.

As for Fisher, I don't see any evidence that he lied. And if he did lie, he did nothing different from Sillett, Hill, Richardson, Robins etc etc in making encouraging statements to the press.

I seem to recall Robins "promising" we would be the Real Madrid of English football. Did he lie?

Or do we make a difference when we judge people based on whether or not we like them?

Click to expand...

What exactly do you mean by 'we come from Division 3'? Man Utd used to play in the Football Alliance, is that where they come from?

We have been in the league for over 90 years, easily over 70 of those years have been in the top 2 divisions.

Nonleagueherewecome · Apr 16, 2012

TommyAtkins said:
So did Wayne Rooney and his agent lie when he moved to Man Utd.

On one hand, we can say that SISU lied - but if they did, then they did exactly the same as every other person involved in football transfers.

I don't know that every person ever involved in a transfer ever has lied, but even so, did your teacher never say to you "Two wrongs don't make a right"!

Nonleagueherewecome · Apr 16, 2012

TommyAtkins said:
6 Generations said:

As for Fisher, I don't see any evidence that he lied. And if he did lie, he did nothing different from Sillett, Hill, Richardson, Robins etc etc in making encouraging statements to the press.

QUOTE]

They delivered some of whart they promised. Fisher managed to fail to increase the size of our squad and deserves a huge slice of ~"credit" for ensuring we went down.

Honestly, if you had set out to get relegated, you couln't have done a more comprehensive job of it than SISU have. I wish all of them early and painful deaths.

Click to expand...

TommyAtkins · Apr 16, 2012

Nonleagueherewecome said:
TommyAtkins said:

6 Generations said:

As for Fisher, I don't see any evidence that he lied. And if he did lie, he did nothing different from Sillett, Hill, Richardson, Robins etc etc in making encouraging statements to the press.

QUOTE]

They delivered some of whart they promised. Fisher managed to fail to increase the size of our squad and deserves a huge slice of ~"credit" for ensuring we went down.

Honestly, if you had set out to get relegated, you couln't have done a more comprehensive job of it than SISU have. I wish all of them early and painful deaths.

Click to expand...

We are going to be relegated because R and R screwed our club. Not SISU. If we had spent more money to improve our squad, we would be guilty of repeating the same errors as before.

No one owes us a club. Our club has to be run as a viable business.

It was a pleasure to discuss this with you. Until your last comment. Which, frankly, does you no credit at all.

Click to expand...

TommyAtkins · Apr 16, 2012

coundonskyblue said:
TommyAtkins said:

What exactly do you mean by 'we come from Division 3'? Man Utd used to play in the Football Alliance, is that where they come from?

We have been in the league for over 90 years, easily over 70 of those years have been in the top 2 divisions.

Click to expand...

And Man Utd have been able to sustain that. Even with debts, they are being managed.

We have been living on other people's money for over a decade and now its time to face the consequences.

Northampton Town went to Division One and back down again. We are doing the same, just over a much longer period.

No matter how much that is to be regretted, it has become inevitable.

And people need to get a grip of this: Hoffman, if he takes over, will be cutting costs as well. And the new UEFA rules will stop him spending money on the squad.

coundonskyblue · Apr 16, 2012

TommyAtkins said:
coundonskyblue said:


 
 
And Man Utd have been able to sustain that. Even with debts, they are being managed.
 
We have been living on other people's money for over a decade and now its time to face the consequences.
 
Northampton Town went to Division One and back down again. We are doing the same, just over a much longer period.
 
No matter how much that is to be regretted, it has become inevitable.
 
And people need to get a grip of this: Hoffman, if he takes over, will be cutting costs as well. And the new UEFA rules will stop him spending money on the squad.

Click to expand...


 

But Northampton have always been in the lower divisions. We started in division 2 in 1919, since then we have spent the overwhelming majority of our time in the top 2 divisions. Currently there are only about 8 clubs that have been in the top 2 divisions longer than us.

TommyAtkins · Apr 16, 2012

coundonskyblue said:


TommyAtkins said:


 

But Northampton have always been in the lower divisions. We started in division 2 in 1919, since then we have spent the overwhelming majority of our time in the top 2 divisions. Currently there are only about 8 clubs that have been in the top 2 divisions longer than us.

Click to expand...

Even if one accepts that case - and I am sure you are right - it doesn't change the situation. We went from Third Division under Hill to the first. Now we are going back to the Third Division.

Perhaps the 3rd Division will be our sustainable level.

Personally, I suspect the old 4th Division beckons.

Largely because we spent millions we didn't have in an attempt to stay in the top flight.

You can't just spend money regardless of the consequences.

Godiva · Apr 16, 2012

TommyAtkins said:
coundonskyblue said:

Perhaps the 3rd Division will be our sustainable level.

Personally, I suspect the old 4th Division beckons.

Largely because we spent millions we didn't have in an attempt to stay in the top flight.

You can't just spend money regardless of the consequences.

Click to expand...

You are right about 'we can't just spend money ...', but I don't believe that league 2 will be our natural - or sustainable - level.
I think we are ahead of many clubs in terms of adjusting our cost structure to the new regulations, and within a few seasons that will put us in a very good condition compared to most clubs our size.
Should we get relegated - and that is still not determined (but likely) - then we may be one of few clubs who actually can afford to pick up some good players on more realistic wages.

valiant15 · Apr 16, 2012

Are r&r still here then?

TommyAtkins · Apr 16, 2012

valiant15 said:
Are r&r still here then?

Yes - their legacy will affect this club for years to come

TommyAtkins · Apr 16, 2012

Godiva said:
TommyAtkins said:

You are right about 'we can't just spend money ...', but I don't believe that league 2 will be our natural - or sustainable - level.
I think we are ahead of many clubs in terms of adjusting our cost structure to the new regulations, and within a few seasons that will put us in a very good condition compared to most clubs our size.
Should we get relegated - and that is still not determined (but likely) - then we may be one of few clubs who actually can afford to pick up some good players on more realistic wages.

Click to expand...

Godiva - I am extremely concerned that, in the event of relegation, our financial situation will be £3-4 million worse off due to the loss of Championship revenue. I would also expect a drop in attendances.

Therefore, despite all the cost-cutting, we will be facing the same situation - more cuts to get the deficit down.

Most fans seem to believe that Hoffman will take over and invest in the squad. Whereas all the evidence suggests that the new UEFA financial fairplay rules will prevent him from spending anything on players, until the club sorts its deficit out.

I agree - we are ahead of many clubs - but the situation is not sufficiently mature for us to generate transfer funds.

Neither Clingan nor Cranie will stay, will which help to reduce the deficit but I think Hoffman (or whoever, even SISU) will be forced to shed more players.

I think we face the real prospect of a struggle. Again

Godiva · Apr 16, 2012

Nostalgiadamus said:
TommyAtkins said:

Was that meant as a joke?

The rules that you refer to only affect a club's ability to compete in European competitions.

When do you see them as being a concern for CCFC?

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The rules have been adopted by the FA and for league 1 clubs it means a club can only spend up to 55% of their revenue on player wages.

valiant15 · Apr 16, 2012

Uncle albert and 'during the war' springs to mind.

Bobby Firenze · Apr 16, 2012

Godiva said:
Nostalgiadamus said:

The rules have been adopted by the FA and for league 1 clubs it means a club can only spend up to 55% of their revenue on player wages.

Click to expand...

I've just been looking at the financial fair play rules here: http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/uefaorg/Clublicensing/01/50/09/12/1500912_DOWNLOAD.pdf

I'm not an expert but Article 61 - Notion of Acceptable Deviation - seems to be saying that there is quite some room for deviation from the break-even figure. Somewhere between 5m Euros and 45m Euros for 2013 - 2015!

Godiva · Apr 16, 2012

TommyAtkins said:
Godiva said:

Godiva - I am extremely concerned that, in the event of relegation, our financial situation will be £3-4 million worse off due to the loss of Championship revenue. I would also expect a drop in attendances.

Therefore, despite all the cost-cutting, we will be facing the same situation - more cuts to get the deficit down.

Most fans seem to believe that Hoffman will take over and invest in the squad. Whereas all the evidence suggests that the new UEFA financial fairplay rules will prevent him from spending anything on players, until the club sorts its deficit out.

I agree - we are ahead of many clubs - but the situation is not sufficiently mature for us to generate transfer funds.

Neither Clingan nor Cranie will stay, will which help to reduce the deficit but I think Hoffman (or whoever, even SISU) will be forced to shed more players.

I think we face the real prospect of a struggle. Again

Click to expand...

The topic of finances if relegated has been discussed before, and it's not all doom and gloom.
With the cost cuttings already made and the income from players sales necessary to reduce the wage bill to meet the FFP regulation, we should cash-flow-wise be ok for a season or two.
In that period a lot of players will be available as other clubs will start to adapt to the FFP in the chapionship and league 1. Players who will find contract offers a lot less attractive than what they are on now.

We agree that in terms of investment in the squad a new owner would not make a difference.

The squad next year (should we get relegated) will be very different to now and will involve more acadamy graduates. But as we have seen this season, some of the youngsters may actually do better than their seasoned team mates.

Godiva · Apr 16, 2012

Bobby Firenze said:
Godiva said:

I've just been looking at the financial fair play rules here: http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/uefaorg/Clublicensing/01/50/09/12/1500912_DOWNLOAD.pdf

I'm not an expert but Article 61 - Notion of Acceptable Deviation - seems to be saying that there is quite some room for deviation from the break-even figure. Somewhere between 5m Euros and 45m Euros for 2013 - 2015!

Click to expand...

That's the rules for top clubs in european competition.
Look here for what is being adopted for league 1: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/jun/10/football-league-uefa-fair-play

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 16, 2012

Nostalgiadamus said:
Bobby Firenze said:

Please DO NOT associate me with the quote about players wages only being allowed to represent 55% of turnover.

That garbage was spouted by "Godiva", not myself!

Click to expand...

It is well worth noting that the Championship have shelved FFP rules so that they take effect in the 2013/14 season, not next season. West Ham threatened a judicial review were the rules implemented next year-no surprise that the media coverage has been scant.

Paxman II · Apr 16, 2012

Tommy I agree with most of your balanced argument but would suggest you are forgetting that football has changed down the century and inexplicably so in the last couple of decades. Money is the root of all evil I'm afraid and you could add ego and power to that.

I also don't agree with your theory we will struggle in league 1 or that it's our natural level such as Luton's demise you have quoted as an example. Luton do not come close to resembling Coventry as a club.
Coventry is very capable of sustaining premiership level football if it can ever get back there!

Then again all this comes down to semantics.

I've expressed already that league 1 will be a golden opportunity to get our house in better shape and kick on from there. I see no reason to believe we will drop further from this level and will indeed be looking up not down.
I think we will all be surprised by how many of our squad will in fact still be here next season. For example...who wants Cranie? In a relegated side and for me not the most accomplished defender prone to flaws on a regular basis. Keogh? One season of being best player at a relegated club will draw admirers? Not so sure. Some footballers need to access their position with some careful thought because money for transfers is so limited among most championship clubs the options may not be there.

dongonzalos · Apr 16, 2012

Wish we had done it 5 years ago or 5 months ago so sisu were gone. Would take it next season aswell though, they really do have absolutely no idea.

coundonskyblue · Apr 16, 2012

Coventry City elected into Division 2 in 1919 (Last ever club to be elected into Div 2)

1919/20 - 1925/25 Div 2
1925/26 - 1935/36 Div 3
1936/37 - 1951/52 Div 2 (At the begining of the 39/40 season we were seen as likely promotion candidates to Div 1 until Hitler invaded Poland & all football was postponed)
1952/53 - 1957/58 Div 3
1958/59 Div 4 (We were relegated from Div 3 despite finishing 19th out of 24 for the creation of Div 4)
1959/60 - 1963/64 Div 3
1964/65 - 1966/67 Div 2
1967/68 - 2000/01 Div 1/Prem
2001/02 - Present Div 2/Champ

Thats 93 years in the FL of which its been:

34 years at Level 1
36 years at Level 2
22 years at Level 3
1 year at Level 4

So 70 years out of 93 in the top 2 levels, thats about 75% according to my maths.

TommyAtkins · Apr 17, 2012

Nostalgiadamus said:
TommyAtkins said:

Was that meant as a joke?

The rules that you refer to only affect a club's ability to compete in European competitions.

When do you see them as being a concern for CCFC?

Click to expand...

You will note that at no time have I made a definitive suggestion. I have made reference to the new rules as suggestions and implications should they be imposed.

I think too many clubs and too many fans are sticking their heads in the sand over this.

There is clear potential for these rules to be imposed and UEFA frequently discuss the potential sanctions.

We will be in League One and there are already rules concerning the amount of money a club can spend.

There is a real likelihood that, should Hoffman take over, he won't be able to spend anything on new players until the spending is controlled.

We will be £4 million adrift following relegation - that will require urgent new cuts to a renewed deficit under control.

Hoffman will have to act quickly to release/sell high wage earners.

Godiva · Apr 17, 2012

The league 1 have adopted the FFP and there's a Salary Cost Management Protocol (SCMT) implemented which restricts any club in league 1 (and 2) to spend more than 55% of their revenue for wages.
The SCMT for the Championship was initially agreed to be 100% of the revenue and be implemented at the start of next season, but West Ham have forced a delay - possibly till 2013/14 season (but there's still time to agree terms and have the regulation in place for 2012/13 season).

The penalties for not complying is transfer ban and points deduction.

The league is also considering implementing regulation against continual losses which will force the owners to cover losses with new equity capital. For Coventry this would mean that sisu (or Hoffman or whoever) would have to find new investment capital equal to the previous seasons losses. This rule - if adopted - will radically change the way football clubs are capitalized. It will also make it much more difficult for a club not living within its means to find new owners!!!

We can't close our eyes to what is coming.

farawayblue · Apr 17, 2012

I can't see why everyone is having a go at SISU banging on about them lying, don't most owners of football clubs. Look at Blackburn's owners promising to bring in superstars did they NO. Its part and parcel of football. The main issue lies with Andy Thorn who to my knwoeldge has had no prior experiance in football management being made the manager of our football club, his tatics at times this season have been shiocking. Its not just SISU'ss fault where in the position we are in everyone involved with the club has to take some responsibility.

TommyAtkins · Apr 17, 2012

farawayblue said:
I can't see why everyone is having a go at SISU banging on about them lying, don't most owners of football clubs. Look at Blackburn's owners promising to bring in superstars did they NO. Its part and parcel of football. The main issue lies with Andy Thorn who to my knwoeldge has had no prior experiance in football management being made the manager of our football club, his tatics at times this season have been shiocking. Its not just SISU'ss fault where in the position we are in everyone involved with the club has to take some responsibility.

Good post.

I don't consider SISU's comments lies.

All they have done is conform to the normal practice adopted by most clubs when it comes to dealing with the fans.

This "blaming SISU" has become hysterical and doesn't reflect reality or the facts.

You can't run a club by spending money based on 25,000 fans attending, if attendances are well below that.

SydneySkyBlue · Apr 17, 2012

TA, you're like a terrible political spin doctor.

If fans aren't attending then that isn't the fault of the fans it's the fault of the owners, as it is their role / objective (or at least it's supposed to be!) to attract new customers.

You say that the club needs to be run like a proper business but in any business isn't the customer always right?

Dwindling crowds reflects badly on the people running the club; nobody else. Don't ever blame the fans just because it doesn't fit in with your ridiculous theory that our club is being run well.

Your comment that SISU's treatment of our supporters is 'normal practice' is laughable. Censorship at away games... That's normal practice is it? Because last time I checked we didn't live in a totalitarian state!

coundonskyblue · Apr 17, 2012

TommyAtkins said:
Good post.

I don't consider SISU's comments lies.

All they have done is conform to the normal practice adopted by most clubs when it comes to dealing with the fans.

This "blaming SISU" has become hysterical and doesn't reflect reality or the facts.

You can't run a club by spending money based on 25,000 fans attending, if attendances are well below that.

We still have the 14th highest attendence in the division so as fans then shouldn't we expect the 14th highest wage budget?

dongonzalos · Apr 17, 2012

TommyAtkins said:
Good post.

I don't consider SISU's comments lies.

All they have done is conform to the normal practice adopted by most clubs when it comes to dealing with the fans.

This "blaming SISU" has become hysterical and doesn't reflect reality or the facts.

You can't run a club by spending money based on 25,000 fans attending, if attendances are well below that.

Dis you consider it lies when Tim Fisher said we are still actively trying to sign loan players on the same day AT said we are not going to sign anyone else. Then later that same day the truth about the embargo leaked out.

Was Tim fisher maybe telling white lies or just big fat bold treat the fans like shit lies

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