Stats figures for how much each Championship club has spent (1 Viewer)

Gibbo · Apr 23, 2021

Frequently on here I see the assertion that the City have the second lowest budget in the Championship, with only Wycombe below us. Where are the stats to back this up? If somebody could point me in the right direction, or if somebody has them, I would be grateful.

I'm interested in looking at £'s spent per place in the league table - if it hasn't already been done

And for all those out there saying that that is not a good way of looking at it, humour me.

Grendel · Apr 23, 2021

Gibbo said:
Frequently on here I see the assertion that the City have the second lowest budget in the Championship, with only Wycombe below us. Where are the stats to back this up? If somebody could point me in the right direction, or if somebody has them, I would be grateful.

I'm interested in looking at £'s spent per place in the league table - if it hasn't already been done

And for all those out there saying that that is not a good way of looking at it, humour me.

You can’t really do it. A lot of transfer fees are not disclosed as well as being appearance based. Wages are pointless as a lot are inherited wages with players who are just simply not worth what they are paid

The only real indicator I would say of activity is agent fees. There’s a table on that somewhere and normally the bigger spending clubs are at the top of that

Sky Blue Pete · Apr 23, 2021

Grendel said:
You can’t really do it. A lot of transfer fees are not disclosed as well as being appearance based. Wages are pointless as a lot are inherited wages with players who are just simply not worth what they are paid

The only real indicator I would say of activity is agent fees. There’s a table on that somewhere and normally the bigger spending clubs are at the top of that

Think it’s reference to wage Bill that will be on the accounts as staffing costs at some point

Grendel · Apr 23, 2021

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In this article, we take a look at how much your club from the Premier League, EFL and Non League spent on agent fees from 2020 to 2021. Chelsea were the highest spending club in the top flight, paying over £35.2m to agents between the 1st of February 2020 and the beginning of February 2021. […]

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Grendel · Apr 23, 2021

Sky Blue Pete said:
Think it’s reference to wage Bill that will be on the accounts as staffing costs at some point

that isn’t an indication of spend

Sky Blue Pete · Apr 23, 2021

Grendel said:
that isn’t an indication of spend

It’s what robins means by budget though I reckon

Grendel · Apr 23, 2021

Sky Blue Pete said:
It’s what robins means by budget though I reckon

Well he said lower than Wycombe so that’s nonsense. The point is if you are a club with a huge wage bill like Hull so what. You are in terminal decline and looking to reduce spend by selling expensive assets and signing much cheaper ones. Clubs like Millwall have established themselves by gradual budget increases wage increases and modest spend over the years.

PVA · Apr 23, 2021

Wage budget has a very high correlation with success/performance. More so than transfer expenditure.

Of the 9 teams below us (9! How good is that), 7 would have a higher wage bill than us so we're definitely performing above expectations from a financial standpoint.

Grendel · Apr 23, 2021

PVA said:
Wage budget has a very high correlation with success/performance. More so than transfer expenditure.

Of the 9 teams below us (9! How good is that), 7 would have a higher wage bill than us so we're definitely performing above expectations from a financial standpoint.

Which proves it doesn’t have a correlation as Derby Forest and Birmingham have much higher wage bills than most teams outside the premier relegated teams in this league - much higher than Barnsley, Preston, Luton, Millwall, Brentford etc

Deleted member 4439 · Apr 23, 2021

Grendel said:
Which proves it doesn’t have a correlation as Derby Forest and Birmingham have much higher wage bills than most teams outside the premier relegated teams in this league - much higher than Barnsley, Preston, Luton, Millwall, Brentford etc

It proves only that it doesn't have a 100% correlation, not that there isn't a correlation (which obviously there is, a strong one).

PVA · Apr 23, 2021

Grendel said:
Which proves it doesn’t have a correlation as Derby Forest and Birmingham have much higher wage bills than most teams outside the premier relegated teams in this league - much higher than Barnsley, Preston, Luton, Millwall, Brentford etc

It quite literally does have a correlation. A huge correlation in fact.

It's absurd to suggest otherwise.

I know it's a tough one for you to take. If we have a low budget then you have to commend Robins for exceeding expectations, which you can't do. If we have a high budget then you have to commend SISU for spending money, which you also can't do.

SlowerThanPlatt · Apr 23, 2021

There can be outliers of course through good recruitment and management but in the main league position isn’t far of what you spend

Top 3 Championship: Norwich, Watford, Bournemouth

Bottom 3: Wycombe, Sheffield Wednesday, Rotherham

Top 3 League One: Hull, Peterborough, Sunderland

Bottom 4: Rochdale, Swindon, Bristol Rovers, Northampton

skybluesam66 · Apr 23, 2021

Grendel said:
Which proves it doesn’t have a correlation as Derby Forest and Birmingham have much higher wage bills than most teams outside the premier relegated teams in this league - much higher than Barnsley, Preston, Luton, Millwall, Brentford etc

There is a strong correlation - otherwise you would not have the so called big 6
Good or poor management can influence this , but correlation is based on statistics, and statistically there is a very very strong correlation in spite of some outliers

Grendel · Apr 23, 2021

skybluesam66 said:
There is a strong correlation - otherwise you would not have the so called big 6
Good or poor management can influence this , but correlation is based on statistics, and statistically there is a very very strong correlation in spite of some outliers

Some of the biggest spenders in this league in wage terms are;

Birmingham
Forest
Derby
Sheff Weds

Hull, Sunderland and Ipswich have been relegated with huge wage bills from the championship as have Wigan, Wolves and Blackburn

Thats a lot of outliers.

Frostie · Apr 23, 2021

There's been numerous studies over the years that concluded wage bills are the best correlation to league positions.
Obviously it'll never be exact but can be a good way to highlight those overperforming (Us, Barnsley etc.) or underperforming (Derby, Forest etc.)

Anyway;
We'll be much much higher on the first graph now as it was done at beginning of March.

Gibbo · Apr 23, 2021

Frostie said:
There's been numerous studies over the years that concluded wage bills are the best correlation to league positions.
Obviously it'll never be exact but can be a good way to highlight those overperforming (Us, Barnsley etc.) or underperforming (Derby, Forest etc.)

Anyway;
We'll be much much higher on the first graph now as it was done at beginning of March.

I think this is what I was looking for. I was expecting to be able to do a graph with spend along the bottom and points up the side, and the line looking like the top left quartile of the clock. So extra money at the bottom reeps high rewards but you get much fewer bangs for your buck the more you spend at the very top

I was also seeing it as a measure of managerial ability. Ainsworth actually has done a great job at Wycombe - they have not been mullered every week and gone back with their tails between their legs.

Thanks FRostie / Liam

Frostie · Apr 23, 2021

Gibbo said:
I think this is what I was looking for. I was expecting to be able to do a graph with spend along the bottom and points up the side, and the line looking like the top left quartile of the clock. So extra money at the bottom reeps high rewards but you get much fewer bangs for your buck the more you spend at the very top

I was also seeing it as a measure of managerial ability. Ainsworth actually has done a great job at Wycombe - they have not been mullered every week and gone back with their tails between their legs.

Thanks FRostie / Liam

Yeah. Worth noting as he says that the figures are by no means an exact science & you won't get an exact detail obviously. Valuations from Transfermarkt are wildly off (far too low usually) but are at least consistent across the board so the rankings will still work out about right.

Gibbo · Apr 23, 2021

I was tring to get to the "managerial added value" - which would be expressed as the difference between the spend ranking and actual position ranking. As has been said, the more you spend the higher you go..And although it is basically true, you can see from Henshaw's table it is not absolutely true.

I appreciate a combination of secrecy, scheduled payments and that the true figure is a mix of fee and wages all combine to make it hard.

Barnsley would be top naturally, and Luton after that, interestingly both only recently promoted, so some of their costs are geared to League 1.

speedie87 · Apr 23, 2021

I’ve been on this forum for years but have only just realised that Grendel is either just the biggest wind up merchant the world has ever seen or he’s wrong about everything. It’s almost every thread he’s making comments that are just wrong!

shmmeee · Apr 23, 2021

Frostie said:
Yeah. Worth noting as he says that the figures are by no means an exact science & you won't get an exact detail obviously. Valuations from Transfermarkt are wildly off (far too low usually) but are at least consistent across the board so the rankings will still work out about right.

This is the point. All those sites will be wrong, but there’s no reason assume they’ll be more wrong for us than anyone else, so the rankings are likely to be about right.

SBT · Apr 23, 2021

Frostie said:
There's been numerous studies over the years that concluded wage bills are the best correlation to league positions.

Yeah but what about Barnsley tho

ovduk78 · Apr 23, 2021

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Not sure how accurate this is but some of these wages, even those for players in relegated PL teams, are ridiculous. No wonder so many teams are in financial trouble and it makes a complete mockery of FFP. Add covid into the equation with reduced income and some clubs could be in even more trouble.

Grendel · Apr 23, 2021

SBT said:
Yeah but what about Barnsley tho

Or Millwall or Luton or Brentford - that chart proves other than the relegated premier league clubs this is a more open division than probably the other 3

Grendel · Apr 23, 2021

speedie87 said:
I’ve been on this forum for years but have only just realised that Grendel is either just the biggest wind up merchant the world has ever seen or he’s wrong about everything. It’s almost every thread he’s making comments that are just wrong!

Except they are not wrong

Grendel · Apr 23, 2021

The wages quoted are ridiculous - our wage bill was nearly £4 million in league two

Frostie · Apr 23, 2021

Grendel said:
The wages quoted are ridiculous - our wage bill was nearly £4 million in league two

Across the whole club yes, not just the players.
It clearly states they are estimates.

Grendel · Apr 23, 2021

Frostie said:
Across the whole club yes, not just the players.
It clearly states they are estimates.

They are not estimates. They are made up The club had a 30% uplift clause in promotion from L2 to L1 and will have even greater rises in L1 to Championship

Come on

SBT · Apr 23, 2021

Grendel said:
Or Millwall or Luton or Brentford - that chart proves other than the relegated premier league clubs this is a more open division than probably the other 3

Why does the chart prove anything if you claimed the numbers were ridiculous two minutes after you posted this?

You're a bit all over the place here.

Grendel · Apr 23, 2021

SBT said:
Why does the chart prove anything if you claimed the numbers were ridiculous two minutes after you posted this?

You're a bit all over the place here.

Hardly - I assume you are still googling who Bobby Gould is.

There is no possibility of top spending premier league clubs getting relegated from that league

Let’s do this with crayons. Is that factually accurate in you view?

Frostie · Apr 23, 2021

Grendel said:
They are not estimates. They are made up The club had a 30% uplift clause in promotion from L2 to L1 and will have even greater rises in L1 to Championship

Come on

Total wage bill increased from £3,988,263 to £4,676,724 from L2 to L1.

As I said, they are estimates based on what they believe each player to earn approx. As already covered above we know they won't be exact but it's the same across the board.

procdoc · Apr 23, 2021

Grendel said:
Hardly - I assume you are still googling who Bobby Gould is.

There is no possibility of top spending premier league clubs getting relegated from that league

Let’s do this with crayons. Is that factually accurate in you view?

Didn’t Sunderland get relegated from the premier league and then relegated from the championship the following season?

Grendel · Apr 23, 2021

procdoc said:
Didn’t Sunderland get relegated from the premier league and then relegated from the championship the following season?

Which is exactly my point

Ccfcisparks · Apr 23, 2021

Grendel said:
Or Millwall or Luton or Brentford - that chart proves other than the relegated premier league clubs this is a more open division than probably the other 3

Brentford? In the last 5 years they've spent £57m

Grendel · Apr 23, 2021

Ccfcisparks said:
Brentford? In the last 5 years they've spent £57m

I thought we were talking wage bills - £17 million wasn’t it a couple of years ago measured against £40 million for Hull

HuckerbyDublinWhelan · Apr 23, 2021

Aren’t those wage figures taken from our last accounts? So it wouldn’t take into account t wage increases as a result of promotion

If that’s the case our wage budget maybe bigger than Luton’s and Barnsley

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