Suicide in veterans (1 Viewer)

Evo1883 · Jan 15, 2021

Found out today another military friend has took his own life, that's 3 in the last 7 years.
When speaking to friends it's unbelievable how many are really struggling with mental health problems, and its not surprising.

Many young lads join the military at a young age and its all they know, add on top of that the mental pressure of combat and the aftermath.

What can be done, in my opinion not enough was done upon returning from tours of duty, counselling etc and not enough is done post military service as a continuation to support veterans... Which ofcourse is leading to a huge problem with mental health and subsequently suicide... Real shame, very sad

There's also no accountibility from the gov or MOD, when it's clear not enough has ever been done

Sky Blue Pete · Jan 15, 2021

It really is

Scares me to think of the ptsd time bomb in the nhs from Covid. It’s pretty outrageous the lack of support given to people who served our country

Evo1883 · Jan 15, 2021

Sky Blue Pete said:
It really is

Scares me to think of the ptsd time bomb in the nhs from Covid. It’s pretty outrageous the lack of support given to people who served our country

Government create the problem then turn a blind eye (Labour then Conservative now) it must really be funded and addressed properly

pastythegreat · Jan 15, 2021

Evo1883 said:
Found out today another military friend has took his own life, that's 3 in the last 7 years.
When speaking to friends it's unbelievable how many are really struggling with mental health problems, and its not surprising.

Many young lads join the military at a young age and its all they know, add on top of that the mental pressure of combat and the aftermath.

What can be done, in my opinion not enough was done upon returning from tours of duty, counselling etc and not enough is done post military service as a continuation to support veterans... Which ofcourse is leading to a huge problem with mental health and subsequently suicide... Real shame, very sad

I feel your pain Evo.
Within a matter of weeks either side of Xmas 2 lads from my Battalion killed themselves. One last Monday and another a couple of weeks before Xmas.
Since leaving (13 years) i think its 5 people from my battlaion that I served with have committed suicide.
The thing is, you know how close everyone was. All it would take is one phonecall to let somebody know ypure struggling and just have a few of you get together for a few beers and a reminisce. All squaddies love telling stories of the old days. If one of the lads had called me, I'd of said fuck the virus, let's get on the piss. Get the lads back together and help "x" through a shit patch. More definitely needs to be done.

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skybluetony176 · Jan 15, 2021

Sorry to hear that EVO. Got a few vets in my family. Some saw action some didn’t. Lost one to suicide some years ago, he’d served in the UDR during the troubles, left when he couldn’t hack it anymore, settled in England and rebuilt his life then only a few months before retirement took his life. We all knew he had difficulties with mental health caused by PTSD but what pushed over the edge in the end was something very trivial at work. Came as a real shock, only saw him a few months before at a family wedding and he was on great form. Just hid how bad it was, I guess, even from his wife and children.

clint van damme · Jan 15, 2021

Evo1883 said:
Found out today another military friend has took his own life, that's 3 in the last 7 years.
When speaking to friends it's unbelievable how many are really struggling with mental health problems, and its not surprising.

Many young lads join the military at a young age and its all they know, add on top of that the mental pressure of combat and the aftermath.

What can be done, in my opinion not enough was done upon returning from tours of duty, counselling etc and not enough is done post military service as a continuation to support veterans... Which ofcourse is leading to a huge problem with mental health and subsequently suicide... Real shame, very sad

There's also no accountibility from the gov or MOD, when it's clear not enough has ever been done

There was a program about this on the radio and there was a naval officer on who said before the recent focus on mental health and PTSD he used to have a policy that whenever they were engaged in an incident he would gather the rank directly under him (can't remember what rank that was) and they would discuss what they'd experienced.

They'd then do the same with the rank below them and so on until everyone had been involved in one of these group chats. His idea was it's better to get this stuff out ASAP.
He said that during the Falklands his vessel was involved in some serious incident and when it was over they did their group chat thing. In the following years other vessels involved in the battle had high rates of mental health and suicide among their crew but his had hardly any.
Makes you wonder if there's a case for something like that becoming policy.

There was also a fireman on interviewed with 20 years service who was crushed with PTSD, he got into counselling and he turned out that it stemmed from the first call he ever went on where a mentally ill man blew himself up with a home made bomb. How was that man allowed to suffer for twenty years without anyone intervening?

shmmeee · Jan 15, 2021

Mental health support in this country just isn't at the level needed regardless, but I can't help but feel that if we're going to ask people to go into situations we know are likely to cause long term issues, we should be factoring in the cost of keeping those people healthy afterwards.

I know no soldier would do it and understand why, but a bit of me feels that the only way to change it would be to sue to MOD like people would for any other workplace injury. I honestly don't see how it's any difference from people who worked with asbestos or whatever.

Hope the ex-forces guys on here are doing OK.

pastythegreat · Jan 15, 2021

shmmeee said:
Mental health support in this country just isn't at the level needed regardless, but I can't help but feel that if we're going to ask people to go into situations we know are likely to cause long term issues, we should be factoring in the cost of keeping those people healthy afterwards.

I know no soldier would do it and understand why, but a bit of me feels that the only way to change it would be to sue to MOD like people would for any other workplace injury. I honestly don't see how it's any difference from people who worked with asbestos or whatever.

Hope the ex-forces guys on here are doing OK.

Soldiers do and have sued the MOD before. One of my closest friends from Battalion lost his leg when we were in Afghan. Him and 4 others sued the MOD (quite successfully too). The MOD tried to put a gagging order in place but eventually they got a film made about the day to tell their full side (and true account) of the story.
I dont know whether anyone has ever sued for lack of support with mental health or PTSD etc, but people have sued and won.

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shmmeee · Jan 15, 2021

clint van damme said:
There was a program about this on the radio and there was a naval officer on who said before the recent focus on mental health and PTSD he used to have a policy that whenever they were engaged in an incident he would gather the rank directly under him (can't remember what rank that was) and they would discuss what they'd experienced.

They'd then do the same with the rank below them and so on until everyone had been involved in one of these group chats. His idea was it's better to get this stuff out ASAP.
He said that during the Falklands his vessel was involved in some serious incident and when it was over they did their group chat thing. In the following years other vessels involved in the battle had high rates of mental health and suicide among their crew but his had hardly any.
Makes you wonder if there's a case for something like that becoming policy.

There was also a fireman on interviewed with 20 years service who was crushed with PTSD, he got into counselling and he turned out that it stemmed from the first call he ever went on where a mentally ill man blew himself up with a home made bomb. How was that man allowed to suffer for twenty years without anyone intervening?

It's all over public service/sector work. Look at @Brighton Sky Blue and his missus, I nearly had a breakdown when teaching, almost every public sector worker I've known (Police, Fire, Social Care, Health, Education) has had a drug or alcohol issue, even if it's just 'lol I drink a bottle of wine a night'.

I do think the forces are special because we ask them to do things we'd never ask people to do in a job normally, but generally the state is a shitty employer when it comes to this sort of thing.

shmmeee · Jan 15, 2021

pastythegreat said:
Soldiers do and have sued the MOD before. One of my closest friends from Battalion lost his leg when we were in Afghan. Him and 4 others sued the MOD (quite successfully too). The MOD tried to put a gagging order in place but eventually they got a film made about the day to tell their full side (and true account) of the story.
I dont know whether anyone has ever sued for lack of support with mental health or PTSD etc, but people have sued and won.

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Oh good, I'd thought maybe there'd be a feeling of 'going against your country' or something. I'd imagine PTSD/MH is harder to prove, but like most organisations once it starts costing them they'll take it seriously,

pastythegreat · Jan 15, 2021

shmmeee said:
Oh good, I'd thought maybe there'd be a feeling of 'going against your country' or something. I'd imagine PTSD/MH is harder to prove, but like most organisations once it starts costing them they'll take it seriously,

Nah, not overly. If they've done wrong and you've been injured because of it then like any company should be held accountable. They don't give a shit about you once you leave, so why should you care about them?

Youre right, PTSD is harder to prove, and also prove where/how you got it! I suppose they're not directly responsible for what happens to people on tours, however, they are directly responsible for what happens afterwards, and if they've been poor at helping soldiers returning home then they're liable.

I think the problem is, we had so many deaths and injuries, an awful lot of money and resources got thrown in to supporting those soldiers and their families, and wrongly, people who were effected mentally got left to the wayside. Nobody should die AFTER returning home from war, but its how they react now its becoming prevalent. Theyve made mistakes in the past, they had better learn from them.

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Evo1883 · Jan 15, 2021

pastythegreat said:
Soldiers do and have sued the MOD before. One of my closest friends from Battalion lost his leg when we were in Afghan. Him and 4 others sued the MOD (quite successfully too). The MOD tried to put a gagging order in place but eventually they got a film made about the day to tell their full side (and true account) of the story.
I dont know whether anyone has ever sued for lack of support with mental health or PTSD etc, but people have sued and won.

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Which film, not kajaki?

clint van damme · Jan 15, 2021

Evo1883 said:
Which film, not kajaki?

saving private ryan

clint van damme · Jan 15, 2021

Evo1883 said:
Which film, not kajaki?

never heard of that, just googled, looks interesting.

Evo1883 · Jan 15, 2021

clint van damme said:
saving private ryan

Evo1883 · Jan 15, 2021

clint van damme said:
never heard of that, just googled, looks interesting.

It's very good

pastythegreat · Jan 15, 2021

Evo1883 said:
Which film, not kajaki?

Yeah, Kajaki.

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pastythegreat · Jan 15, 2021

clint van damme said:
saving private ryan

I aint that old you cheeky fucker

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Evo1883 · Jan 15, 2021

pastythegreat said:
Yeah, Kajaki.

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No way, that was your battalion?

pastythegreat · Jan 15, 2021

Evo1883 said:
No way, that was your battalion?

No, that was 4 Para. Few lads from my battalion ended attached to them for most of the tour for some reason. Cant remeber how or why tbf.

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pastythegreat · Jan 15, 2021

clint van damme said:
never heard of that, just googled, looks interesting.

Good film, well worth a watch.
Came out at about the same time as American Sniper, but unlike the Hollywood film and made up shit of American Sniper, Kajaki is pretty much true to real life. The actors spent 6 months with the soldiers they were portraying to get to know them and their characteristics to give as true an account of the events as possible. The lads were on set during filming trying to make it as lifelike as possible and not your typical Hollywood war film bullshit. I spoke to Ken when he was home (well, at Selly Oak hospital) and he told me what happened, when I watched the film it was pretty much like the story he'd told me years before hand. Anyone who's never seen it, its 110% worth an hour and a half of anybodys time. Its called Kajaki: The True Story. Or it was re released in Yank land so for those looking on Netflix etc, it was called Kilo Two Bravo.

Unlike American Sniper (that had a big Hollywood name and backing) no big film makers wanted to touch it. It was only ever released at Vue Cinemas (I went to Leamington to watch it). At the time the Paras were putting gags on their men. They weren't allowed to go and watch it. then they could, but not in uniform. Then they were told that nobody could discuss it on social media or speak to anybody from the media about the film or the events.

5 lads sued the MOD (well, the RAF for their lack of anything) for a total of £5m.

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Brighton Sky Blue · Jan 15, 2021

shmmeee said:
It's all over public service/sector work. Look at @Brighton Sky Blue and his missus, I nearly had a breakdown when teaching, almost every public sector worker I've known (Police, Fire, Social Care, Health, Education) has had a drug or alcohol issue, even if it's just 'lol I drink a bottle of wine a night'.

I do think the forces are special because we ask them to do things we'd never ask people to do in a job normally, but generally the state is a shitty employer when it comes to this sort of thing.

Veterans have been poorly looked after for hundreds of years, it's a sorry story and one that baffles me because the state has no reason or incentive to neglect them. My job hasn't made me suicidal but it has reduced the missus to tears I'd say every few weeks. During normal term time we don't speak much because one or both of us is marking, planning, writing reports etc. Remote term time dials that up and we're on devices past midnight pretty much every day except a Friday.

Suicide takes a frightening number of young men and I can totally get how bad it could be among ex-forces. At least on here a lot of people have been very brave in sharing some pretty horrendous experiences and hopefully it's been a small relief for them.

Nick · Jan 15, 2021

Mental health support in this country just isn't enough. I can't imagine how much worse it is for some of the things people see at war.

It really does need to make things easier and simpler for people to get help, take the GP surgeries out of the equation so that other people can do referrals.

I saw a documentary about mdma and a veteran in America. They trialled mdma therapy and it actually really helped him. It was pretty interesting.

LastGarrison · Jan 15, 2021

Just Googled and it looks like it is on Netflix so will give that a watch over the weekend.

LastGarrison · Jan 15, 2021

Nick said:
Mental health support in this country just isn't enough. I can't imagine how much worse it is for some of the things people see at war.

It really does need to make things easier and simpler for people to get help, take the GP surgeries out of the equation so that other people can do referrals.

I saw a documentary about mdma and a veteran in America. They trialled mdma therapy and it actually really helped him. It was pretty interesting.

I have posted about this before but a mate of mine is involved with the trials of using MDMA as a treatment for alcohol use disorder and it is now going into the second phase:

Awakn Life Sciences Appoints CRO to Conduct Phase II Study of MDMA as a Treatment for Alcohol Use Disorder

Toronto, Ontario--(Newsfile Corp. - January 15, 2021) - Awakn Life Sciences announced today the selection of contract research organization ('CRO'),...

www.newsfilecorp.com

Nick · Jan 15, 2021

LastGarrison said:
Just Googled and it looks like it is on Netflix so will give that a watch over the weekend.

Yeah I think it's a series about the different drugs. The veterans who trialled it said it was life changing.

fernandopartridge · Jan 15, 2021

Evo1883 said:
Found out today another military friend has took his own life, that's 3 in the last 7 years.
When speaking to friends it's unbelievable how many are really struggling with mental health problems, and its not surprising.

Many young lads join the military at a young age and its all they know, add on top of that the mental pressure of combat and the aftermath.

What can be done, in my opinion not enough was done upon returning from tours of duty, counselling etc and not enough is done post military service as a continuation to support veterans... Which ofcourse is leading to a huge problem with mental health and subsequently suicide... Real shame, very sad

There's also no accountibility from the gov or MOD, when it's clear not enough has ever been done

Sorry to hear that. Feel sorry for lads in the army, they risk their lives for the benefit of an establishment that couldn't give a fuck about them.

Like you say there should be a supported discharge from the army with a ongoing support to adapt to civilian life including housing, education and training for sustainable jobs and a welfare system that supports people.

I think politicians not entering into pointless and destructive wars would help a lot as well.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jan 15, 2021

Sad fact is people in charge have it much easier if soldiers come back in a box. Put on a poppy for a few weeks, lay a wreath, stand there looking solemn for a few minutes and jobs done.

Come back with injuries or mental health problems and you've got a massive problem that costs a LOT of money to fix that very few are willing to even attempt to look into, let alone take on the almost impossible task of trying to solve. And they sure as hell aren't going to supply the funding to try and do so.

For all the bullshit about 'heroes' and 'patriots' they're quite happy when push comes to shove to hang them out to dry and let charities and well-meaning individuals bear the burden.

LastGarrison · Jan 16, 2021

Just watched Kajaki.

Really good watch but underpinned by the horrendous knowledge of what you were watching actually happened.

Horrible, horrible situation.

pastythegreat · Jan 16, 2021

LastGarrison said:
Just watched Kajaki.

Really good watch but underpinned by the horrendous knowledge of what you were watching actually happened.

Horrible, horrible situation.

Nearly 7 hours they sat in a minefield. From 1 casualty, to 7 and a fatality, mainly down to incompetence from the RAF.
Don't get me wrong, the RAF were great in a lot of situations. But that day, they got it horribly wrong.

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LastGarrison · Jan 16, 2021

pastythegreat said:
Nearly 7 hours they sat in a minefield. From 1 casualty, to 7 and a fatality, mainly down to incompetence from the RAF.
Don't get me wrong, the RAF were great in a lot of situations. But that day, they got it horribly wrong.

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When the chinook arrives first........fucking hell. What an absolute shit show.

This sounds a bit of a macabre request but I am fascinated by our recent military history and particularly in Iraq and Afghanistan and Eight Lives Down is still one of the best books I’ve read ever but are there any other books, documentaries etc. that you would recommend that you feel tell/show the story best?

pastythegreat · Jan 16, 2021

LastGarrison said:
When the chinook arrives first........fucking hell. What an absolute shit show.

This sounds a bit of a macabre request but I am fascinated by our recent military history and particularly in Iraq and Afghanistan and Eight Lives Down is still one of the best books I’ve read ever but are there any other books, documentaries etc. that you would recommend that you feel tell/show the story best?

I dont know many tbf. Not something I've overly watched or read up on. You've obviously got your stuff that Phil Mitchell done, whats his bloody real name? He done some decent footage. He cracks me up though. His big hard man routine

reminds me of an older version of Danny Dyer

If you're looking for a good book, try Apache. Its a Biography by Ed Macy from his time as an British Apache pilot in Afghan. A very good insight and well worth a read.
Absolute fucking hell of a Helecopter the Apache. It used to put the fear of God in to me when it hung over head and it was on my side. Thunders over you with a massive roar and a big dark shadow. Frightening bit of kit, and the blokes that fly them are half cyborg I swear. None of them are fully human.

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pastythegreat · Jan 16, 2021

LastGarrison said:
When the chinook arrives first........fucking hell. What an absolute shit show.

This sounds a bit of a macabre request but I am fascinated by our recent military history and particularly in Iraq and Afghanistan and Eight Lives Down is still one of the best books I’ve read ever but are there any other books, documentaries etc. that you would recommend that you feel tell/show the story best?

Our Boys spent 107 days under attack from Taliban hordes

WAR IN AFGHANISTAN British soldiers showed just how brave, professional and stoic they are in the face of the enemy when they held off hordes of Taliban rebels for an incredible 107 days. Their epic feat is the longest defence in modern British military history and beats all records dating...

forums.canadiancontent.net

Heres a little bit of insight/reading for you. This was originally ran by The S*n newspaper but I cant seem to find the article. This was written about me and my company. Dean Fisher who they talk about is my best mate (and unfortunately a Villa fan) and gunner. We were a gun team in Battalion. I was gun controller and he was gunner (GPMG in SF role).
It says that a 3rd soldier lost a leg elsewhere, that was my mate Ken (Kajaki movie).
Just an idea of what I did and seen in Afghan.

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SBAndy · Jan 16, 2021

LastGarrison said:
Just watched Kajaki.

Really good watch but underpinned by the horrendous knowledge of what you were watching actually happened.

Horrible, horrible situation.

Where can I find this film?

pastythegreat · Jan 16, 2021

SBAndy said:
Where can I find this film?

It should be on Netflix. Might be called Kilo Two Bravo on Netflix though so look for both.
It was also on BBC2 not long back so you might find it on iPlayer.

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