Take the knee (11 Viewers)

Nick · Dec 9, 2020

shmmeee said:
No.

And if they were, what exactly is the problem with Marx? Can any of you explain what you’re so scared of?

Also, people keep falling for this shit and it’s literally as old as time:

View attachment 17836

Im not scared of anything at all. I was just asking if that was the link been Marxism and BLM because of the founders.

Until people can see why others are linking things like this rather than just shouting "racist" then it's not going to change anything surely?

The issue is clearly things being labelled as "BLM" for some because of politics isn't it? That's away from the downright racists.

Instead of people saying "but blacklivesmatter.org.uk.int.af isn't actually linked to blacklivesmatter.com" surely the thing is just to not be anything to do with it at all to prevent any links / confusion.

Unless of course they jumped under the BLM "banner" like Sky did and then had to change.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Dec 9, 2020

Deleted member 5849 said:
BLM UK's website explicitly says they are apolitical.

There is no confusion.

To be honest do you think they'd say they were political if it were the case?

It may shock you but people in politics often tell lies.

clint van damme · Dec 9, 2020

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
I've repeatedly highlighted the Millwall fans and their reputation as scum.

We all know that isn't the argument though. Look at what happened last night. There is almost no reference to it because the same usual suspects on here cannot stand bring wrong.

didn't they clap last night because their players didn't take the knee? I haven't seen it so if that's not so I'm prepared to be corrected.
But I'm not sure why people are so willing to defend a club with massive amounts of previous for racism when on this occasion they say they weren't been racist. It's a strange stance.

Brighton Sky Blue · Dec 9, 2020

Nick said:
Surely people should listen if people have an issue with "BLM" but none at all with every other discrimination cause?

There's a reason that the Premier League and others distanced and used "No Room for Racism"

It would get further than just shouting racist at everybody.

It doesn’t escape me either that there are twice as many Asian people in the UK as there are black people. No room for racism makes it less Americanised which is what I don’t like about our politics as it is.

Nick · Dec 9, 2020

Deleted member 5849 said:
BLM UK's website explicitly says they are apolitical.

There is no confusion.

So why is it BLM UK and not "Unite against Racism" UK?

If people don't want to be associated with BLM and the politics of it all, why the fuck do they call themselves BLM UK?

If I start EDLMidlands but say "this isn't racist and nothing to do with Tommy Robinson" as a disclaimer would that be acceptable do you think? The only reason anybody would do that is to try and get on a bandwagon and get the same "followers" and "attention" Tommy Robinson got / gets.

Otherwise, I'd just distance completely.

Surely, surely you can see why that might be an issue for some? It's OK you saying "but they said it's not political". Would you feel the same if an EDL Coventry March had a disclaimer saying it wasn't racist or linked to EDL? Of course not.

Jamesimus · Dec 9, 2020

It’sabatch87 said:
Didn’t Greg Clarke get made to step down for saying’People of colour last week’?
But it’s ok for you?

The term I used is generally currently accepted (in a broad sense, context is important here...). You don't need to feel embarrassed for calling me out etc, at least you're looking at the language people are using.

What Greg Clarke said was different and regarded as a racist term (albeit maybe not intentionally, lack of knowledge?).

Times change and what I said may be deemed as being unacceptable one day. If anyone takes issue with the language I've used I will apologize / you can PM me on here about it.

clint van damme · Dec 9, 2020

Nick said:
So why is it BLM UK and not "Unite against Racism" UK?

Surely, surely you can see why that might be an issue for some?

If people don't want to be associated with BLM and the politics of it all, why the fuck do they call themselves BLM UK?

If I start EDLMidlands but say "this isn't racist and nothing to do with Tommy Robinson" as a disclaimer would that be acceptable do you think? The only reason anybody would do that is to try and get on a bandwagon and get the same "followers" and "attention" Tommy Robinson got / gets.

Otherwise, I'd just distance completely.

If your campaign was clearly anti racist I would support it, because I don't like racism and I don't need to find excuses not to get behind an anti racist message.

Jamesimus · Dec 9, 2020

There are a lot of people in this thread who are questioning the politics of BLM (in all of it's incarnations), rather than questioning their own personal politics and how they might relate to racism.

A lot of inner-turmoil going on and no one doubts a lot of you may be super nice people.

Nick · Dec 9, 2020

clint van damme said:
If your campaign was clearly anti racist I would support it, because I don't like racism and I don't need to find excuses not to get behind an anti racist message.

Don't get me wrong, a lot would.

However, surely the simplest thing for me to do would to be just not call myself something the same as another party I claim to not be linked to and just call it "Anti Racism UK" or something?

The question is, if an organisation doesn't want to be linked to another one. Why use the same name but put UK on the end and then wonder why there's confusion?

Deleted member 5849 · Dec 9, 2020

clint van damme said:
If your campaign was clearly anti racist I would support it, because I don't like racism and I don't need to find excuses not to get behind an anti racist message.

Jacob Rees-Mogg spends his time before announcing parliament's daily business waving a sock in the air while hoola-hooping, as an anti-racist message, I'll think it's maybe an odd way of getting it across, but fair play to him, he's not all bad after all.

I wouldn't boo his chosen form of protest!

Nick · Dec 9, 2020

Jamesimus said:
There are a lot of people in this thread who are questioning the politics of BLM (in all of it's incarnations), rather than questioning their own personal politics and how they might relate to racism.

A lot of inner-turmoil going on and no one doubts a lot of you may be super nice people.

A lot of the time it isn't political personally, it's just not being a c**t and treating others as you want to be treated regardless of skin colour etc. (From a personal point of view that is)

This is the point raised months ago, BLM is very much about politics and people jumped on it as it was everywhere at the time. Now people want to try and distance from BLM and say it's not political but...BLM.

Of course, push anti-discrimination but surely people can see why when things are pushed as BLM then it comes more political thus causes more issues?

Otis · Dec 9, 2020

clint van damme said:
And to be honest I know a lot of people who are trying to tarnish an anti racism gesture with labels like 'Marxists' and 'hard left' to cover their own bigotry because they simply don't like the message.
I've personally said I think it should end, I know black supporters who think it should end but I think our reasoning is different to the likes of the Millwall support.

Nick said:
It's how people take it isn't it?

When and why did "Taking the Knee" become a thing over here? What is it heavily linked to and about for people?

Well for me it

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
You're wide of the mark really.

My points were that BLM has been tarnished. Some of you are still trying to argue against it.

Players take a knee. Get booed.
Players link arms and sing hokey cokey. Get cheered.

That might make sense if the Millwall players hadn't have released that statement. But they did.

What we have is "we're going to boo because you are taking the knee." So, the players then don't take the knee and the fans cheer.

Brighton Sky Blue · Dec 9, 2020

Deleted member 5849 said:
Jacob Rees-Mogg spends his time before announcing parliament's daily business waving a sock in the air while hoola-hooping, as an anti-racist message, I'll think it's maybe an odd way of getting it across, but fair play to him, he's not all bad after all.

I wouldn't boo his chosen form of protest!

Isn’t that sleeping on the benches?

clint van damme · Dec 9, 2020

Deleted member 5849 said:
Jacob Rees-Mogg spends his time before announcing parliament's daily business waving a sock in the air while hoola-hooping, as an anti-racist message, I'll think it's maybe an odd way of getting it across, but fair play to him, he's not all bad after all.

I wouldn't boo his chosen form of protest!

exactly, I'd still think he was a hypocritical neo liberal wank but I'd support him on that.

Deleted member 5849 · Dec 9, 2020

clint van damme said:
exactly, I'd still think he was a hypocritical neo liberal wank but I'd support him on that.

Yup. I seem to recall a number of times where us lefties are toild we should support the government and give praise when they do good things.

Why can't the same be done in reverse, and when an anti-racism message is given, it is praised?

Otis · Dec 9, 2020

Nick said:
So why is it BLM UK and not "Unite against Racism" UK?

If people don't want to be associated with BLM and the politics of it all, why the fuck do they call themselves BLM UK?

That wouldn't look great though would it. Can you imagine. In the States they say "Black Lives Matter" and over here we say we are not going to use that.

The rallies and protestors have been chanting Black Lives Matter, because they do.

Nick · Dec 9, 2020

Otis said:
That wouldn't look great though would it. Can you imagine. In the States they say "Black Lives Matter" and over here we say we are not going to use that.

The rallies and protestors have been chanting Black Lives Matter, because they do.

So surely people have to then accept when people link to Black Lives Matter and it's founders in the US?

Of course Black Lives Matter, it doesn't mean that everybody had to jump on that and then do a U turn (like Sky) because it's political.

We aren't in America, we aren't American.

Jamesimus · Dec 9, 2020

Nick said:
A lot of the time it isn't political personally, it's just not being a c**t and treating others as you want to be treated regardless of skin colour etc. (From a personal point of view that is)

This is the point raised months ago, BLM is very much about politics and people jumped on it as it was everywhere at the time. Now people want to try and distance from BLM and say it's not political but...BLM.

Of course, push anti-discrimination but surely people can see why when things are pushed as BLM then it comes more political thus causes more issues?

I understand that's what it is for you personally, but that's just an example of very direct anti-racist sentiment. I like to think the majority of people here aren't intentional racists.

Addressing systemic inequalities requires an anti-racist movement that challenges these things; hence the politics part.

You can't just push "anti-racist" without addressing issues such as policing, wealth and housing disparities, anti-immigration rhetoric.

I personally think it does have associated politics, just can't see why people would disagree with the idea of them?!

Travs · Dec 9, 2020

I think the last few posts again highlight what a shit show it all is.

I personally have no appetite to be "educated" by anyone from the football community on anything... Be it racism, politics, morals..... Whether they be Millwall fans, Sky Sports and their presenters, Neymar and his team mates, Coventry City, Aston Villa.

Perhaps if football wasnt so morally bankrupt I'd have a different view. Ive got no opposition to "football" as an entity pushing back against racism...

As I said above, the whole subject is an unfortunate feature (amongst very many others) which is quite literally turning me away from the game

Skybluefaz · Dec 9, 2020

Travs said:
I think the last few posts again highlight what a shit show it all is.

I personally have no appetite to be "educated" by anyone from the football community on anything... Be it racism, politics, morals..... Whether they be Millwall fans, Sky Sports and their presenters, Neymar and his team mates, Coventry City, Aston Villa.

Perhaps if football wasnt so morally bankrupt I'd have a different view. Ive got no opposition to "football" as an entity pushing back against racism...

As I said above, the whole subject is an unfortunate feature (amongst very many others) which is quite literally turning me away from the game

I dunno, I think that footballers have shown they can be a force for good this year. Plus young working class kids look up to them.

Jamesimus · Dec 9, 2020

Travs said:
I think the last few posts again highlight what a shit show it all is.

I personally have no appetite to be "educated" by anyone from the football community on anything... Be it racism, politics, morals..... Whether they be Millwall fans, Sky Sports and their presenters, Neymar and his team mates, Coventry City, Aston Villa.

Perhaps if football wasnt so morally bankrupt I'd have a different view. Ive got no opposition to "football" as an entity pushing back against racism...

As I said above, the whole subject is an unfortunate feature (amongst very many others) which is quite literally turning me away from the game

I mean, no one is stopping you from reading into stuff yourself, you don't have to read stuff on here (just re-read this; this isn't meaning to sound hostile / condescending, you seen like a nice person!)

It's an uncomfortable thing for a lot of people to discuss and completely understand football is a lot of people's "downtime". It's an area of personal interest for me so it feels different.

clint van damme · Dec 9, 2020

Travs said:
I think the last few posts again highlight what a shit show it all is.

I personally have no appetite to be "educated" by anyone from the football community on anything... Be it racism, politics, morals..... Whether they be Millwall fans, Sky Sports and their presenters, Neymar and his team mates, Coventry City, Aston Villa.

Perhaps if football wasnt so morally bankrupt I'd have a different view. Ive got no opposition to "football" as an entity pushing back against racism...

As I said above, the whole subject is an unfortunate feature (amongst very many others) which is quite literally turning me away from the game

I said further back in this thread that I think it's a massive dereliction of duty by the powers that be that they've left this to be dealt with in the main by the clubs and the players and they should be the one leading by example.
Looking at their own demographic and having a serious look at why the management at clubs is so under represented by Black ex players.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Dec 9, 2020

clint van damme said:
didn't they clap last night because their players didn't take the knee? I haven't seen it so if that's not so I'm prepared to be corrected.
But I'm not sure why people are so willing to defend a club with massive amounts of previous for racism when on this occasion they say they weren't been racist. It's a strange stance.

I don't really feel great about using Millwall fans in a debate about racism to be honest. I am just trying to illustrate that the BLM campaign is tarnished (rightly or wrongly depending on your view), and if we want to combat racism then there needs to be an approach where there can be absolutely no excuses to get behind it.

Brighton Sky Blue · Dec 9, 2020

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
I don't really feel great about using Millwall fans in a debate about racism to be honest. I am just trying to illustrate that the BLM campaign is tarnished (rightly or wrongly depending on your view), and if we want to combat racism then there needs to be an approach where there can be absolutely no excuses to get behind it.

What happened to the Kick It Out campaign?

Nick · Dec 9, 2020

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
I don't really feel great about using Millwall fans in a debate about racism to be honest. I am just trying to illustrate that the BLM campaign is tarnished (rightly or wrongly depending on your view), and if we want to combat racism then there needs to be an approach where there can be absolutely no excuses to get behind it.

That's been my point for months.

Instead of people saying "It isn't political" or "It's not linked to BLM in the US" etc then surely people need to stop and think why people might think that?

I mean the fact the name is exactly the same is a giveaway. It would be the same if people were to use the label of EDL or BNP and then wonder why people had issues with things.

People have just defaulted to calling anybody who questions it a racist, rather than look into why some people might have an issue with the BLM stuff (aside from just being racist).

Otis · Dec 9, 2020

Nick said:
So surely people have to then accept when people link to Black Lives Matter and it's founders in the US?

Of course Black Lives Matter, it doesn't mean that everybody had to jump on that and then do a U turn (like Sky) because it's political.

We aren't in America, we aren't American.

They are linking to the slogan "Black Lives Matter"

Nick · Dec 9, 2020

Otis said:
They are linking to the slogan "Black Lives Matter"

That's the thing isn't it.

"It isn't the organisation it's the slogan but we have a UK organisation who represents the slogan with the name but isn't linked to the US organisation at all"

Surely people can understand why it gets linked back? Kind of proving the point of the issue that some people have about shouting the name of a US political organisation and promoting it?

You can't then say "it's not linked" when people are saying it "because thats what they said in America".

Jamesimus · Dec 9, 2020

Nick said:
That's been my point for months.

Instead of people saying "It isn't political" or "It's not linked to BLM in the US" etc then surely people need to stop and think why people might think that?

I mean the fact the name is exactly the same is a giveaway. It would be the same if people were to use the label of EDL or BNP and then wonder why people had issues with things.

People have just defaulted to calling anybody who questions it a racist, rather than look into why some people might have an issue with the BLM stuff (aside from just being racist).

Except for the fact it's not even a point, because if you have an anti-racist movement that's attempting to address systemic and institutional racism, then people WILL (and have) find excuses to not get behind it because "they don't like the politics".

It's easy to get behind anti-racist things such as "kick it out" that largely address direct discrimination, without acknowledging the more uncomfortable issues we have. (This is not to say that things like kick it out don't serve a purpose, they do).

The comparisons to EDL and the like I'm not even going to go into why they're daft, please stop

Still no closer to understanding what the issues are / could be, but I don't think everyone that doesn't support BLM are full-on racists, some of them are very nice people.

Edit- going to make this my last post on this one for now because I don't want to annoy anyone because it's nicer here than the Facebook Fans Forum

Otis · Dec 9, 2020

Nick said:
That's the thing isn't it.

"It isn't the organisation it's the slogan but we have a UK organisation who represents the slogan with the name but isn't linked to the US organisation at all"

Surely people can understand why it gets linked back? Kind of proving the point of the issue that some people have about shouting the name of a US political organisation and promoting it?

You can't then say "it's not linked" when people are saying it "because thats what they said in America".

I get there is some confusion, but there can be no confusion in understanding the Millwall players' statement can there

This is Millwall fans here. A club with notoriously racist fans.

chiefdave · Dec 9, 2020

Otis said:
That wouldn't look great though would it. Can you imagine. In the States they say "Black Lives Matter" and over here we say we are not going to use that.

Am I missing something? We haven't had BLM used in football since last season have we, Premier League is 'No Room For Racism` and EFL is ''Not Today or Any Day'.

Nick · Dec 9, 2020

Jamesimus said:
Except for the fact it's not even a point, because if you have an anti-racist movement that's attempting to address systemic and institutional racism, then people WILL (and have) find excuses to not get behind it because "they don't like the politics".

It's easy to get behind anti-racist things such as "kick it out" that largely address direct discrimination, without acknowledging the more uncomfortable issues we have. (This is not to say that things like kick it out don't serve a purpose, they do).

The comparisons to EDL and the like I'm not even going to go into why they're daft, please stop

Still no closer to understanding what the issues are / could be, but I don't think everyone that doesn't support BLM are full-on racists, some of them are very nice people.

So you don't align yourself with a political organisation, surely? Disagreeing with BLM doesn't always mean you are racist, you can be fully behind BLM and be a racist also.

Why is it daft to compare with the EDL? Is it because you know if the shoe was on the other foot it would be different depending on whether you are a "rightie" or a "leftie"?

chiefdave · Dec 9, 2020

Lets look at this another way. Just suppose that the vast majority of footballers are actually Marxists and they've decided to adopt taking a knee as a way of expressing their support for Marxism.

So what? I don't boo if a player prays before a match or crosses themselves even though that isn't in line with my beliefs. If some of our players tweet that they support a different political party to the one you choose to support do you boo them? Should people who are anti-war start booing players when they have poppies on their kits? Of course not it would be unacceptable not to mention ridiculous. What makes this any different?

Are we really supposed to believe that Millwall supporters have such strongly held views about Marxism that it prompted them to boo? Can anyone point to any other work Millwall have done against Marxism to back up that theory?

Deleted member 5849 · Dec 9, 2020

chiefdave said:
Lets look at this another way. Just suppose that the vast majority of footballers are actually Marxists and they've decided to adopt taking a knee as a way of expressing their support for Marxism.

Except they're not very committed or effective Marxists, because they have to lie about why they're *really* doing it, and pretend it's about Black inequality.

clint van damme · Dec 9, 2020

Nick said:
That's been my point for months.

Instead of people saying "It isn't political" or "It's not linked to BLM in the US" etc then surely people need to stop and think why people might think that?

I mean the fact the name is exactly the same is a giveaway. It would be the same if people were to use the label of EDL or BNP and then wonder why people had issues with things.

People have just defaulted to calling anybody who questions it a racist, rather than look into why some people might have an issue with the BLM stuff (aside from just being racist).

Who's defaulted to calling people racist?
I just can't understand why people are so quick to belive that Millwall fans weren't being racist when they have a history of it yet quick.to dismiss the Millwall club statement distancing taking the knee from.BLM.
And what was different the other night to the other occasions they have been racist that makes you want to defend them?

Sky Blue Pete · Dec 9, 2020

clint van damme said:
Who's defaulted to calling people racist?
I just can't understand why people are so quick to belive that Millwall fans weren't being racist when they have a history of it yet quick.to dismiss the Millwall club statement distancing taking the knee from.BLM.
And what was different the other night to the other occasions they have been racist that makes you want to defend them?

Yeah the people booing were being racist.

Take the knee (11 Viewers)

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