TF explains how ........ (1 Viewer)

dongonzalos said:

The difference I would imagine is today they deal with an administrator 6 months ago it would have been SISU.

The last two attempts went well dealing with SISU

Click to expand...

Haskell was quite clear that he would only make a deal if the club was in administration, i.e. he doesn't want to pay for the assets the club has. It's quite similar to SISU wanting to distress ACL and pick up its assets for nothing, is it not?

Godiva said:

Losses and debts are different things.
If we owned ACL we (most likely) wouldn't run at a loss.

We don't know the full 'value' of the debts. It may say £70m in the accounts, but that is hardly the exact value across the companies in the group. Sisu have bloated the debts as a protection against a hostile takeover - we see the effect of that right now.
Don't expect a new owner to do it differently!

Click to expand...

I am aware of the difference between losses and debt; but we have to address them as an amalgamated mass since Fisher won't offer a breakdown that makes sense; and therefore, candidly, allow us to make judgment on all of the constituent elements.

Until such time as he does so - and uses the 'total value' (bloated as you term) as a stick to hit his detractors over the head with; he can't complain when the relationship between the value of the ACL relationship is compared with this overall sum, can he?

Otis said:

Hmmm ..... Brandon to city centre CV1 is 6.4 miles.

Ricoh to city centre CV1 is 4.2 miles.

I thought Tim told us that the new stadium would be actually nearer to the city centre than the Ricoh.

Click to expand...

And on one single, old road by means of access. It's lunacy of biblical proportions

Tis indeed.

Already backlogs of traffic at times on there. Could you imagine on a match day. :facepalm:

fernandopartridge said:

Haskell was quite clear that he would only make a deal if the club was in administration, i.e. he doesn't want to pay for the assets the club has. It's quite similar to SISU wanting to distress ACL and pick up its assets for nothing, is it not?

Click to expand...

Ie he is getting advised by Gary Hoffman who has told him dealing with SISU directly is a waste of everybody's time.

SISU themselves should have waited till we fell into administration last time.

Only a crazy businessman wouldn't.

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:

And on one single, old road by means of access. It's lunacy of biblical proportions

Click to expand...

It is nearer to the 'immediate vicinity' of the city centre.

fernandopartridge said:

The comments from TF at the London Supporters Club forum suggests that SISU tried negotiation originally.]

The prospective new owners aren't exactly White Knights are they? If they were, they'd have surely looked to takeover the club when it was in a slightly better position, or is it different for them?

Click to expand...

If those 'comments' can offer proof by minuted meetings or notes; I'd be more inclined to believe them. However, what I can tell you is that SISU's representatives haven't been slow in courting media coverage for any given campaign I've the last five years, and I can barely find a single reference to the rent, or agreement from any SISU member of staff before relegation, or it's inevitability.

Have a go; Google's all yours.....

fernandopartridge said:

Haskell was quite clear that he would only make a deal if the club was in administration, i.e. he doesn't want to pay for the assets the club has. It's quite similar to SISU wanting to distress ACL and pick up its assets for nothing, is it not?

Click to expand...

No it's not. It's legitimate practice to buy a business out of administration, it isn't to push a company into admin in the 1st place. Any assets the club has are far outweighed by it's liabilities, hence the reluctance to pay over the odds. Potential is a different matter, but that will only be realised through risk taking and investment.

wasn't there an article about SISU companies and debt in the telegragph a while ago :thinking about::thinking about::thinking about::thinking about:

Otis said:

Tis indeed.

Already backlogs of traffic at times on there. Could you imagine on a match day. :facepalm:

Click to expand...

It truly is insane. I used to live just down the road in Wolston; and the queues when the British Final were on were incredible. Gridlock. And that's with a 5,000 capacity.

What about when it's Wolves at home - by means of example - and it's three times that :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:

It truly is insane. I used to live just down the road in Wolston; and the queues when the British Final were on were incredible. Gridlock. And that's with a 5,000 capacity.

What about when it's Wolves at home - by means of example - and it's three times that :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Click to expand...

In three to four years time you wouldn't have to worry about that. The club would be in insolvency or the name sold to the new team using the Ricoh.

SISU could not sustain three to four years elsewhere with no fans

The idea is rubbish propaganda a poor attempt to increase the price.

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:

I used to live just down the road in Wolston

Click to expand...

Carrott cruncher!

• By Les Reid

Fears grow over Coventry City going bust as Cayman Islands link revealed

23 May 2012 00:00
FEARS that Coventry City could be close to going bust are growing – following a Telegraph investigation into owner Sisu’s offshore business dealings in the Cayman Islands.



Share on printShare on email



Cayman Islands
FEARS that Coventry City could be close to going bust are growing – following a Telegraph investigation into owner Sisu’s offshore business dealings in the Cayman Islands.
Our investigation has prompted Coventry City Council leader John Mutton to call on the football club’s hedge fund owners to be fully “open and transparent” if it wants to lodge any serious bid for a half share of the Ricoh stadium and surrounding development land.
We investigated a business arrangement set up by Sisu in March, which appears to give first call on any of the football club’s existing or future assets to a Cayman Islands operation – called Arvo Master Fund Ltd.

READ LES REID'S COLUMN ON WHY THE RICOH ARENA DEAL SEEMS AS FAR AWAY AS THE CAYMANS. CLICK HERE...
In response to our questioning, Sky Blues chief executive Tim Fisher said Arvo was now the investor in Coventry City Football Club which is propping up its finances.
The Arvo “debenture” examined by the Telegraph – effectively a mortgage arrangement – was lodged with Companies House in March 19 and lists assets as security against lending by Arvo – down to the last grass mower and gym equipment at the club’s Ryton training ground.
Crucially, it also lists as “fixed security” any property the Sky Blues acquires in future.
Coun Mutton said our findings added to his concerns that, if Sisu was to acquire half of the Ricoh stadium company, it could be used to pay off Sisu and its investors – rather than supporting the struggling football club’s finances.

Brendan Guilfoyle, a leading UK expert in football finance and an insolvency practitioner, claimed our findings alongside other recent developments all suggested Coventry City could soon be heading for administration – unless a Ricoh rescue deal is struck quickly.
But Coun Mutton has re-iterated the council is in no hurry, and would want to go through Sisu’s business dealings, and any future business case, with “a fine-toothed comb”.
Ricoh Arena Mr Guilfoyle, who has previously been appointed administrator for Leeds Utd, Crystal Palace, Luton Town and Plymouth Argyle, added: “Hedge funds are routinely domiciled in the Cayman Islands for the purposes of tax minimisation and to retain a higher level of confidentiality.”
Coun Mutton said such concerns would be fully examined by the city council and its lawyers, in taxpayers’ interests, “if Sisu were to put forward what looks like a viable business case”.
On March 19, a company called Arvo Master Fund Ltd, based in Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands, registered debentures against the Sky Blues operating company and its holding company to secure amounts owed to it by the Sky Blues.

In response to our questions, Mr Fisher said Arvo Master Fund Ltd is part of Mayfair-based Sisu, and is “Sisu’s hedge fund” investing £500,000 a month to meet the club’s “funding gap”.
It has prompted further speculation about whether UK-based private equity funds set up by Sisu to fund the football club still have investors putting money into them.

Mr Fisher last week played down the debenture with Arvo – concern over which had been raised by some Coventry City fans on fans’ websites – telling us: “It’s normal business practice and just means that one Sisu company has call on assets of another Sisu company. If you didn’t do that you’d need your head looking at.”

READ LES REID'S COLUMN ON WHY THE RICOH ARENA DEAL SEEMS AS FAR AWAY AS THE CAYMANS. CLICK HERE...
While no further evidence is available of Arvo’s business dealings or relationship with Sisu or the Sky Blues, Mr Guilfoyle questioned Mr Fisher’s explanation – in particular the timing of the debenture, with the Sky Blues in deep financial trouble.
Mr Guilfoyle, of The P&A Partnership, said no such arrangements had previously appeared to be in place, and asked: “What assets does the football club have and why take security now?”
He said: “A debenture is like the mortgage on my house, I have borrowed money to buy my house and my mortgage lender has a charge on my house to secure my borrowings in case I don’t repay my mortgage.

“The Sky Blues have undoubtedly borrowed money from Sisu, and they are now seeking to secure the loans on the assets of the club.
“The problem with that is there doesn’t appear to be any significant assets in Coventry City Football Club.”

Brendan Guilfoyle Mr Guilfoyle went on to speculate that the debenture has been put there to enable Sisu to retain control in the event that the club is forced into administration.
He said “I think it may be a precautionary step to enable them to retain control in the event of the club going into administration.”

This development together with the Sky Blues witholding rent on the Ricoh stadium for more than two months, and the club’s failure to sign off and lodge its accounts – leading to a transfer embargo; has intensified speculation that administration may be inevitable.
There are increasing fears about the ability of Sisu to continue funding the football club.
Mr Guilfoyle said: “I hear anecdotally that the immediate funding requirement over the close season is nearly £3million.”

It comes amid ongoing talks between Sisu and the Ricoh Arena company’s owners – Coventry City Council and the Alan Edward Higgs Charity – about Sisu obtaining the Higgs charity’s half-share in Arena Coventry Ltd to gain revenue for the deficit-hit club.
What Coventry City says: Sisu plough money into this club every month
Questioned about the debenture and Arvo, Coventry City Football Club chief executive Tim Fisher said: “Every month, money is going into the football club.
"The money is put in from the Sisu hedge fund which is Arvo. Arvo put it in as debt.
“As a consequence it uses the assets of the company as security.
“It does not put in the money as equity. Why would you?”
Tim Fisher, left, and Steve Waggott talk to CCFC fans at the Herbert Gallery He said questions about whether wealthy investors were still putting money into the four UK-based private equity funds first set up by Sisu for Coventry City would have to be addressed by Sisu.
Mr Fisher continued: “There is nothing dark or sinister about this.
“There is a funding gap every month. That funding gap is bridged every month by Sisu.
"The funding gap last month was north of £0.5million. They’ ve put in £40million.”
He said he or the football club as borrower could not speak for the lender, which is Sisu/Arvo.

READ LES REID'S COLUMN ON WHY THE RICOH ARENA DEAL SEEMS AS FAR AWAY AS THE CAYMANS. CLICK HERE...

Asked about concerns over transparency and a Cayman Islands hedge fund, he said: “On behalf of the football club, we’re trying to be very open and transparent for all stakeholders.”
Asked about the timescale for any stadium deal with the council and Higgs charity, seen as crucial to the football club’s immediate financial future, he said: “We are entirely focused on the transaction.
"We want to give the owners the requisite comfort to support us moving out of a transfer embargo.
“We have business to do this summer and we want to do it right now.”

What Coventry City Council says: We have concerns over SISU's levels of transparency over the last five years
Sisu’S off-shore activities would be fully investigated by Coventry City Council as part of any advanced stadium talks, pledged leader John Mutton.
Of the debenture with Arvo, Coun Mutton said: “I don’t know anything about it.
"But I’ve already said if – and I’ve made it clear it’s a big if – we don’t stand in the way of the Higgs charity shares being sold to Sisu, there would have to be a legal agreement so they that they couldn’t use the Ricoh as collateral to get a loan.
John Mutton “I would have to make certain that legal agreements were in place so that Arvo wouldn’t get first call.

“The assets of the football club and Sisu are negligible – they don’t own the ground, and the players’ contracts would revert to the Football League if they go into liquidation.
“There is no way Arvo will get half the Ricoh Arena under these circumstances – if they go into liquidation.”
Asked about transparency and Arvo’s Cayman Islands location, Coun Mutton said: “We’ve got concerns anyway about Sisu’s level of transparency over the last five years.
“I’ve said to them I expect them to be open and transparent with the fans, except for areas of commercial confidentiality.”
He continued: “I am more concerned about what business case Sisu are going to put forward.
"If I see what looks like a viable business case, that’s when we would go through it with a fine-toothed comb and go through Sisu’s off-shore activities.
"The Higgs charity would first have to come to an agreement with Sisu. That’s not a done deal.

READ LES REID'S COLUMN ON WHY THE RICOH ARENA DEAL SEEMS AS FAR AWAY AS THE CAYMANS. CLICK HERE...
“Then there is other criteria for the council that would have to be satisfied.
“The football club and Sisu have said they want it done quickly. But there is no timescale for the council.”
Coun Mutton reiterated Sisu would have to table a detailed business case for investment in the stadium company (which only made £470,000 profit last year), the football club, and the surrounding development land earmarked for hotels and leisure activities to supplement the stadium’s revenue from conferences, concerts and other activities

also

We Have No Debts - Fisher

By Covsupport News Service
Updated Thursday, 13th September 2012
Views: 199

• Coventry City RSS Feed

No Debt says Fisher
Coventry City CEO Tim Fisher has said that the Sky Blues do not have any debts.
In reply to a question raised by one of the club historians Lionel Bird, Mr Fisher said firstly that the AVRO debenture is a very normal practice and that there are no debts.
He said, whilst trying to keep in the bounds of business confidentuality, that the mortgage on the training ground had been paid as had the mortgage on the sales of season tickets.
Mr Fisher also admitted that losses were down to £250k per month from £600k.

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:

It truly is insane. I used to live just down the road in Wolston; and the queues when the British Final were on were incredible. Gridlock. And that's with a 5,000 capacity.

What about when it's Wolves at home - by means of example - and it's three times that :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Click to expand...

Ahh, maybe that's where Tim has gone wrong. He's aiming to ditch football and go to Gridiron but he just can't spell very well so has gone for Gridlock instead.

Sub said:

he is completely deluded how are they going to pay for it if nobody turns up why do they not understand this ? :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Click to expand...

People will turn up, there will always be scabs muggish enough to keep giving them oxygen.

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:

If those 'comments' can offer proof by minuted meetings or notes; I'd be more inclined to believe them. However, what I can tell you is that SISU's representatives haven't been slow in courting media coverage for any given campaign I've the last five years, and I can barely find a single reference to the rent, or agreement from any SISU member of staff before relegation, or it's inevitability.

Have a go; Google's all yours.....

Click to expand...

What would I use google for? I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a rebuttal of these comments from the other parties. Why has there not been one?

Sub said:

also

We Have No Debts - Fisher

By Covsupport News Service
Updated Thursday, 13th September 2012
Views: 199

• Coventry City RSS Feed

No Debt says Fisher
Coventry City CEO Tim Fisher has said that the Sky Blues do not have any debts.
In reply to a question raised by one of the club historians Lionel Bird, Mr Fisher said firstly that the AVRO debenture is a very normal practice and that there are no debts.
He said, whilst trying to keep in the bounds of business confidentuality, that the mortgage on the training ground had been paid as had the mortgage on the sales of season tickets.
Mr Fisher also admitted that losses were down to £250k per month from £600k.

Click to expand...

This is what Ranson said as well, I notice he seems to escape any form of criticism.

magic82ball said:

People will turn up, there will always be scabs muggish enough to keep giving them oxygen.

Click to expand...

Why are you referring to Coventry City fans as scabs?

So if SISU buy Brandon and then go bust it will be sold and the money will be paid to AVRO.

So if AVRO lend Holdings the money (SISU to SISU) as long as they don't pay way over the odds they will get most of the Brandon money back due to the debenture as it also covers any future purchases by SISU.

SonofErnie said:

No it's not. It's legitimate practice to buy a business out of administration, it isn't to push a company into admin in the 1st place. Any assets the club has are far outweighed by it's liabilities, hence the reluctance to pay over the odds. Potential is a different matter, but that will only be realised through risk taking and investment.

Click to expand...

I agree, but Haskell was aware of the club's predicament prior to it going into administration and apparently had already been in discussion with ACL. If you remember the sequence of events, ACL tried to put the club into administration originally.

A few questions, regarding the proposed new ground, for Fisher at the forum this evening:

1. Who is going to lend SISU the money to build a second football stadium anywhere near the Ricoh.
2. Where will they find investors when, despite the efforts of Dulieu and Fisher, SISU couldn't find anyone willing to invest in the club when we were a Championship side and before the huge debts were apparent.
3. Who would be willing to join a partnership to develop the non-stadium side? Why would anyone want to be involved with a near broke investment management company with no experience of such a venture?
4. If such a site exists, isn't it likely that any prospective development partner will say "what do we need a football stadium for?". Let's develop the whole lot as residential, retail or whatever - that's where the money is to be made.

Maybe they can take the bluff to the next step of actually buying the land.

fernandopartridge said:

I agree, but Haskell was aware of the club's predicament prior to it going into administration and apparently had already been in discussion with ACL. If you remember the sequence of events, ACL tried to put the club into administration originally.

Click to expand...

Haskell was interested since last July but knew dealing with SISU was not possible.

fernandopartridge said:

What would I use google for? I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a rebuttal of these comments from the other parties. Why has there not been one?

Click to expand...

You can use Goggle to find any reference to the rental renegotiations; or references to the level being excessive by SISU's various stooges over their term. A I recall, it was only the spectre of relegation that focused their minds.

And what planet have you been on? Most if not all of Fisher's clams have constantly and regularly been denied by other parties. In my view, he's playing a dangerous game of spin, knowing the other party won't respond due to their respect of this county's sub judice laws

RPHunt said:

A few questions, regarding the proposed new ground, for Fisher at the forum this evening:

1. Who is going to lend SISU the money to build a second football stadium anywhere near the Ricoh.
2. Where will they find investors when, despite the efforts of Dulieu and Fisher, SISU couldn't find anyone willing to invest in the club when we were a Championship side and before the huge debts were apparent.
3. Who would be willing to join a partnership to develop the non-stadium side? Why would anyone want to be involved with a near broke investment management company with no experience of such a venture?
4. If such a site exists, isn't it likely that any prospective development partner will say "what do we need a football stadium for?". Let's develop the whole lot as residential, retail or whatever - that's where the money is to be made.

Click to expand...

Also what is the development potential of Brandon and why have the current owners not exploited this potential ( Warwickshire Council planning department)

fernandopartridge said:

Because the whole premise of their bids is to takeover ACL. Not to sublet from ACL.

Click to expand...

Ah sorry I added a bit which I didn't manage to save the edit of because I had to go and help a customer which says.

Why wouldn't they want to buy the charity share of the Arena as SISU/CCFC started to do?

dongonzalos said:

Haskell was interested since last July but knew dealing with SISU was not possible.

Click to expand...

That's alright then. It was OK for him to wait until CCFC was in such a distressed state that he could takeover for nothing.

Sub said:

also

We Have No Debts - Fisher

By Covsupport News Service
Updated Thursday, 13th September 2012


Views: 199

• Coventry City RSS Feed

No Debt says Fisher
Coventry City CEO Tim Fisher has said that the Sky Blues do not have any debts.
In reply to a question raised by one of the club historians Lionel Bird, Mr Fisher said firstly that the AVRO debenture is a very normal practice and that there are no debts.
He said, whilst trying to keep in the bounds of business confidentuality, that the mortgage on the training ground had been paid as had the mortgage on the sales of season tickets.
Mr Fisher also admitted that losses were down to £250k per month from £600k.

Click to expand...

so looking at this we are debt free and only losing 250k a month from September 2012 if thats the case we owe 2 million to the month of june 2013???? is that right :thinking about::thinking about::thinking about:
:thinking about::thinking about::thinking about::thinking about:

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:

You can use Goggle to find any reference to the rental renegotiations; or references to the level being excessive by SISU's various stooges over their term. A I recall, it was only the spectre of relegation that focused their minds.

And what planet have you been on? Most if not all of Fisher's clams have constantly and regularly been denied by other parties. In my view, he's playing a dangerous game of spin, knowing the other party won't respond due to their respect of this county's sub judice laws

Click to expand...

I'm on planet 'don't trust anybody' and therefore believe claims from all parties have equal merit.

Sick Boy said:

Why are you referring to Coventry City fans as scabs?

Click to expand...

As anybody who breaks the picket line for their own gains is called a scab http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=scab

This is a time when we need to stick together to break SISU yet there will be people who continue to give them money so their social diary is not effected on a Saturday.

fernandopartridge said:

I'm on planet 'don't trust anybody' and therefore believe claims from all parties have equal merit.

Click to expand...

I'm from planet 'balance of probability'; and therefore take a view on past events to form opinion on current and future

dongonzalos said:

Also what is the development potential of Brandon and why have the current owners not exploited this potential ( Warwickshire Council planning department)

Click to expand...

The current owners of the site aren't Warwickshire Council (who they?).

So our new ground's going to be in the Cayman Islands? I could get on board with that.