The future of the club (1 Viewer)

JonesBob · Jan 4, 2022

I think MR is the first manager I have ever seen who is actually financially astute. He talks about 'living within our means' and other terminology relating to the financial side of the club. And that got me thinking. Would people be prepared to follow the city, if the team performed entertainingly, but it meant we became a midtable club with little ambition to be promoted to the Premier League, but we had adequate resources in the squad to be safe from relegation. Are supporters content to just have an existing club as MR would see?

higgs · Jan 4, 2022

Yes for the time being consolidate as a championship club promote some youngsters to the first team and have a crack at going for the premier league

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Nick · Jan 4, 2022

JonesBob said:
I think MR is the first manager I have ever seen who is actually financially astute. He talks about 'living within our means' and other terminology relating to the financial side of the club. And that got me thinking. Would people be prepared to follow the city, if the team performed entertainingly, but it meant we became a midtable club with little ambition to be promoted to the Premier League, but we had adequate resources in the squad to be safe from relegation. Are supporters content to just have an existing club as MR would see?

We are that?

SkyBlueCharlie9 · Jan 4, 2022

We are fine for now and we have a vision based more like the sustainable model of Norwich, WBA, Brentford than that of Derby or Bristol City!
If ever we were to get a wealthy benefactor then maybe we change the strategy.

Sick Boy · Jan 4, 2022

So the club hired a supporter liaison officer then?

aloisijohnnyaloisi · Jan 4, 2022

JonesBob said:
Are supporters content to just have an existing club as MR would see?

Splashing the cash doesn't necessarily bring success, and balancing the books doesn't necessarily mean stagnation on the pitch. Football is more complicated than that.

We have seen year on year improvement under MR with a sustainable model of player development and sensible transfers - barring a few duds.

Long may it continue.

Londonccfcfan · Jan 4, 2022

JonesBob said:
I think MR is the first manager I have ever seen who is actually financially astute. He talks about 'living within our means' and other terminology relating to the financial side of the club. And that got me thinking. Would people be prepared to follow the city, if the team performed entertainingly, but it meant we became a midtable club with little ambition to be promoted to the Premier League, but we had adequate resources in the squad to be safe from relegation. Are supporters content to just have an existing club as MR would see?

Could only have dreamed of existing in the championship. There were dark times In last 10 years didnt think we would get back into championship even.

shmmeee · Jan 5, 2022

Hanging your business plan on a single employee is dangerous. Would we be a midtable side with an average manager? I don’t think so.

I want Robins funded appropriately for a club of our size. It just so happens that with the Robins effect added on that would make us a top ten side but the point is if he goes or has an off season it wouldn’t mean disaster.

SkyblueDad · Jan 5, 2022

higgs said:
Yes for the time being consolidate as a championship club promote some youngsters to the first team and have a crack at going for the premier league

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That’s fine but what “youngsters” have been promoted in recent years Bayliss four years ago then shipped out and McCallum also shipped out we have to see if Eccles makes the grade. What I’m saying is waiting for youngsters can be a long wait, so it’s down to selling top players and fingers crossed two or three bargains from any fee are a success, won’t always happen and the gap between mid-table and the relegation slotd isn’t much.

1ccfc · Jan 5, 2022

As much as I like MR I very much doubt he is the one controlling the finances. If he was given 10m to spend tomorrow, I'm sure he would. If you think anyone is being astute then surly it's the people running the club. The statements MR makes about living within our means are just the facts when asked questions about transfers.

clint van damme · Jan 5, 2022

At some point the current 'model' will fail and we'll be relegated again.

skyblueeyesrevisited · Jan 5, 2022

clint van damme said:
At some point the current 'model' will fail and we'll be relegated again.

Happy New Year to you too

Sky Blue Harry H · Jan 5, 2022

clint van damme said:
At some point the current 'model' will fail and we'll be relegated again.

It's a bit like any of the mid-table PL teams. If you are unable to crack the system and break into the top 4, at some point you will eventually have a 'rogue; season and will get relegated. The parachute payment system is causing a similar issue in The Championship. Unless you have a benefactor who is 'happy; to risk losing money in the hope of breaking into the PL, then you have to just hope to have a one off rogue season working positively for you - if Blackburn don't go up this year, you could easily see them finishing bottom half next season. If WBA don't go up this season, then next season the top of The Championship will be relegated teams from the PL plus WBA scrapping for the top 4, with the rest messing about for the remaining 2 play off places. It makes for borderline unfair competition. System needs changing and we need to thank our lucky stars that we are where we are. Things could turn sour for most of the clubs in this league in any given season under the current set up.

Edit: just bought my Derby ticket - could be the difference between buying a David Speedie rather than a David Bell (please buy a ticket !!!)

Saddlebrains · Jan 5, 2022

clint van damme said:
At some point the current 'model' will fail and we'll be relegated again.

Think this is a valid point tbh

chiefdave · Jan 5, 2022

Not sure its that simple. Staying a mid table championship club is OK in theory but with one of the smaller budgets in the league it seems inevitable to me that at some point relegation is inevitable.

Of course the big question then would be are we capable of getting back at the first attempt or is it the start of a downward trend.

However suggesting we spend money we don't have in the hopes of getting into the PL isn't a great argument from a business perspective. What we really want is a new owner who is prepared to come in and thrown millions around without any concern if they lose it all. Of course we all want that yet will criticise other clubs for overspending when they hit financial problems.

Liquid Gold · Jan 5, 2022

Following a model like Brentford requires us to develop players, sell and reinvest. That means we should be getting O'Hare and Hamer on inflated contracts now so that they can be moved on for hefty fees in the summer.

The fees from those two then need to be reinvested into 5/6 players that are at the level O'Hare and Hamer were at when they first arrived.

It works in principle but you need that money to be reinvested and not taken out to repay loans and I don't trust that would happen.

Sell those two and replace with a couple more while repaying the owners and you only have to miss a couple of times before your team is back in the shit again and you're looking at relegation. Couple that with losing the manager that pulled off the miracle of double promotion from where we were, which would inevitably happen were we to get relegated, then we're back to being a run of the mill L1 team pretty easily.

Frostie · Jan 5, 2022

Liquid Gold said:
Following a model like Brentford requires us to develop players, sell and reinvest. That means we should be getting O'Hare and Hamer on inflated contracts now so that they can be moved on for hefty fees in the summer.

The fees from those two then need to be reinvested into 5/6 players that are at the level O'Hare and Hamer were at when they first arrived.

It works in principle but you need that money to be reinvested and not taken out to repay loans and I don't trust that would happen.

Sell those two and replace with a couple more while repaying the owners and you only have to miss a couple of times before your team is back in the shit again and you're looking at relegation. Couple that with losing the manager that pulled off the miracle of double promotion from where we were, which would inevitably happen were we to get relegated, then we're back to being a run of the mill L1 team pretty easily.

It's a lot harder to "do a Brentford" nowadays with Brexit & the associated work permit criteria too.

SeaSeeEffCee · Jan 5, 2022

We’re reached our ceiling under this ownership. Bar a fluke season or some truly exceptional scouting we’ll never be consistent challengers in this division until SISU go.

Winny the Bish · Jan 5, 2022

Frostie said:
It's a lot harder to "do a Brentford" nowadays with Brexit & the associated work permit criteria too.

Peterborough always seem to have a new wonderkid ready to be sold for £5-10m and they don't recruit from abroad.
The difference is they're happy to splash £250k on the National League/L2's newest starlet (Ronnie Edwards, Jack Taylor, Dembele) whereas we're much more conservative.

Liquid Gold · Jan 5, 2022

Frostie said:
It's a lot harder to "do a Brentford" nowadays with Brexit & the associated work permit criteria too.

Quite. You'd have to do it with more UK players now meaning higher fees and more risk.

robbiethemole · Jan 5, 2022

clint van damme said:
At some point the current 'model' will fail and we'll be relegated again.

Good old CVD, guaranteeed to bring a smile to people's faces. hahahah

Frostie · Jan 5, 2022

skyblue93 said:
Peterborough always seem to have a new wonderkid ready to be sold for £5-10m and they don't recruit from abroad.
The difference is they're happy to splash £250k on the National League/L2's newest starlet (Ronnie Edwards, Jack Taylor, Dembele) whereas we're much more conservative.

Yes, they've been successful with it in the past, think even that will be harder now though with clubs asking for bigger fees & the bigger clubs looking to hoover up any young talent.

Sky Blue Harry H · Jan 5, 2022

skyblue93 said:
Peterborough always seem to have a new wonderkid ready to be sold for £5-10m and they don't recruit from abroad.
The difference is they're happy to splash £250k on the National League/L2's newest starlet (Ronnie Edwards, Jack Taylor, Dembele) whereas we're much more conservative.

For every Dembele, there are numerous failures. Agree that Posh have done (marketed) well their 'stars' and got good fees. Think that the market will be interesting next summer. Must admit I laughed at the report about the lad with the hair from Bristol City, Massengo. Apparently they turned down an £8m bid for him last summer. Some German club now sniffing around - offering a lot less now. Not sure anybody (bar a Brereton type) is going to attract big bids. Again, only the parachute payment clubs in this division will be able to pay 'reasonable' fees for players. The rest of us will be shopping at Poundland.

clint van damme · Jan 5, 2022

robbiethemole said:
Good old CVD, guaranteeed to bring a smile to people's faces. hahahah

I'm serious. No matter how good your recruitment is every club will have seasons where they get it wrong, if you keep trying to eke out bargains and operate on a low budget then when it does go wrong you're in trouble.

It won't be Robins fault.

ceetee · Jan 5, 2022

Tim Fisher himself said that the clubs business strategy would not work in the Championship. I don't think anything has changed since he said it.

A few seasons ago, people on here were complaining that Bury were spending money in the hope of success.....why weren't we. Well we are still here and Bury aren't.

If you want to really splash out money to buy success, you have to have owners with bottomless pockets. Somebody with a few millions is going to run out of money before success is achieved in most cases. There will be exceptions but there will be far more casualties

robbiethemole · Jan 5, 2022

Surely we're better placed than a lot of clubs tho due to leasing St Andrews, we didn't have all the overheads and outgoings like maintenance and staffing costs, we only had wages of players and some staff to cover. I think we are probably one of the least affected clubs during the covid.

CDK · Jan 5, 2022

clint van damme said:
At some point the current 'model' will fail and we'll be relegated again.

Love the positivey

Sky Blue Harry H · Jan 5, 2022

clint van damme said:
I'm serious. No matter how good your recruitment is every club will have seasons where they get it wrong, if you keep trying to eke out bargains and operate on a low budget then when it does go wrong you're in trouble.

It won't be Robins fault.

I suppose that's why it is so important to establish yourself in the division. If you can upgrade the squad over a period of time, it should leave you less vulnerable. One of the main dangers is that we are in a constant state of being preyed upon for our better players (like the majority of clubs) and where you would like to see our owners hold their nerve when it comes to valuation of those players. Having an upwardly mobile projection (as we have had recently) probably helps keep the squad happier in the meantime, with less prone to wanting to leave. If you want to have a look at crap recruitment, look no further than Birmingham.

Sky Blue Harry H · Jan 5, 2022

robbiethemole said:
Surely we're better placed than a lot of clubs tho due to leasing St Andrews, we didn't have all the overheads and outgoings like maintenance and staffing costs, we only had wages of players and some staff to cover. I think we are probably one of the least affected clubs during the covid.

Plus a really small wage bill compared to e.g. Forest, Bristol City etc etc.

CDK · Jan 5, 2022

Think I will back robins on this as a manager he is well in the know.thats not to say I am impatient about us getting a couple loans in to give the squad a boost.
So will leave it to robins and boddy to make the decisions .

clint van damme · Jan 5, 2022

CDK said:
Love the positivey

Just being realistic. I don't think Robins can kee taking us forward without more support.

Ccfcisparks · Jan 5, 2022

clint van damme said:
Just being realistic. I don't think Robins can kee taking us forward without more support.

Absolutely. We would need owners that can put in at least a few million a season to have even a sniff of promotion.

chiefdave · Jan 5, 2022

ceetee said:
Tim Fisher himself said that the clubs business strategy would not work in the Championship.

As the saying goes 'even a stopped clock is right twice a day'. Its the old issues of running a football club vs running a business.

As football fans we want money spent and call upon the owners to write blank cheques with, at best, a very slim chance of a return. But from a business perspective its hard to argue against attempting to run sustainably. Of course you can make a business argument to invest to expand the business but I suspect anyone looking from a business perspective would want a much better chance of a return than a football club offers.

The other problem then becomes that we aren't operating in isolation. We're competing with other clubs whose owners are happy to chuck millions at promotion while there is seemingly no meaningful push from anywhere to get clubs to live within their means.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jan 5, 2022

chiefdave said:
As the saying goes 'even a stopped clock is right twice a day'. Its the old issues of running a football club vs running a business.

As football fans we want money spent and call upon the owners to write blank cheques with, at best, a very slim chance of a return. But from a business perspective its hard to argue against attempting to run sustainably. Of course you can make a business argument to invest to expand the business but I suspect anyone looking from a business perspective would want a much better chance of a return than a football club offers.

The other problem then becomes that we aren't operating in isolation. We're competing with other clubs whose owners are happy to chuck millions at promotion while there is seemingly no meaningful push from anywhere to get clubs to live within their means.

There’s living within your means and there’s the owners helping themselves with high interest loans to maintain the club’s debt to them. This is the problem with ‘just happy to be here’

Legia Sky Blue · Jan 5, 2022

Endless mid table finishes would lead to losses in support down the line, with a resultant loss of income through the gate. We have to make some kind of play off challenge every few seasons to sustain or improve our support base. Even relegation followed by immediate promotion could be better for the club long term than endlessly finishing mid table. Millwall, Preston and Bristol City have been such constant mid table teams in recent seasons and none particularly inspire me, although to be fair I guess that is based on our raised hopes this season, and maybe at the start of the season I would have been happy to follow those teams' example.

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