The never ending court story (10 Viewers)

oldskyblue58 · Oct 29, 2018

Sky Blue Pete said:
'This is about the future of Coventry City' - Sky Blues chief

Such a shambles

I am actually even more concerned after reading that. He is clearly very worried, not quite desperate yet though.

It looks to me like the only card he has to play is a PR campaign to try to create some pressure on Wasps from the local community and particularly the fans. Will those fans & community all be galvanised in to united and concerted action before it is too late? I assume the pressure he envisages to compromise also applies to all sides? Boddy has to try to move things along and credit to him for trying but he is stuck in the middle with no real power or influence.

And Wasps are simply not talking to him at all it sounds like. No engagement whatsoever.

I wouldn't expect MR, his staff or players to be involved in the court case, but the legal entity that is CCFC (Otium) and their direct employer & decision maker is. Legally unless there is some written guarantee before the court then Otium (CCFC) is joint and severally liable for the court costs. The converse of that is if not liable then would the club benefit from a successful legal challenge? if not why was Otium included on the court case? I am sure plenty of fans will be convinced CCFC is not part of this but the decision makers that count wont be.

Still think that we will get a short term one year deal, but it will be very much take it or leave it (ie more expensive)

deeply concerning

Magwitch · Oct 29, 2018

I think we’ll get another short term deal too, not heard if sisu have appealed or not but will be surprised if they don’t exhaust the road they are on and go to the Supreme Court, but I do worry should they get the thumbs down from them they then go down the Civil court route that might make Wasps dig their heals in and tell sisu to do one.

chiefdave · Oct 29, 2018

Astute said:
The same deal that Fisher said they wouldn't have paid as much as Wasps?

Yet the club put in a bid for Higgs half which Kieran Crowley stated was higher than the one Wasps put it.

Astute said:
That is like saying renting a 4 bed house for £500 a month isn't reasonable because you have to pay gas, electric and council tax.

A better analogy would be renting a 4 bed house for £500 a month where the landlord pays the £200 a month council tax and then invoices the tenants £400 a month for council tax.

Nick · Oct 29, 2018

I don't think the 4 bedroom house analogy works anyway, it is a room in that house one day a week.

torchomatic · Oct 29, 2018

Nick said:
I don't think the 4 bedroom house analogy works anyway, it is a room in that house one day a week.

With your best friends standing outside with placards trying to get the landlord to charge you even more.

fernandopartridge · Oct 29, 2018

chiefdave said:
Yet the club put in a bid for Higgs half which Kieran Crowley stated was higher than the one Wasps put it.

A better analogy would be renting a 4 bed house for £500 a month where the landlord pays the £200 a month council tax and then invoices the tenants £400 a month for council tax.

When Fisher talks about not paying what Wasps did, he means not buying out that stupid loan (the one that set ACL up to fail from day one). Perhaps he'll be proven correct, the loan has now been converted to part of a retail bond with a heavy interest payment. It remains to be seen how it all plays out.

Captain Dart · Oct 29, 2018

fernandopartridge said:
When Fisher talks about not paying what Wasps did, he means not buying out that stupid loan (the one that set ACL up to fail from day one). Perhaps he'll be proven correct, the loan has now been converted to part of a retail bond with a heavy interest payment. It remains to be seen how it all plays out.

You know where that loan originated don't you. It was a hole CCFC/Richardson left in the Arena finances because the club were too big a risk to lend to.
It all spirals from where they lost the (rather good) land deal BR had set up with BG and had to let their Dutch contractors buy the land they couldn't for want of £2M. The Contractors then quickly flipped the land to the Council making a huge profit.

Grendel · Oct 29, 2018

Captain Dart said:
You know where that loan originated don't you. It was a hole CCFC/Richardson left in the Arena finances because the club were too big a risk to lend to.
It all spirals from where they lost the (rather good) land deal BR had set up with BG and had to let their Dutch contractors buy the land they couldn't for want of £2M. The Contractors then quickly flipped the land to the Council making a huge profit.

No it wasn’t - the council had a choice to charge ACL a monthly rent or take the loan.

It took the loan and than charged CCFC the rent that would have covered the loan so we ended up paying for it for them.

As a ccfc fan of many years I bet it makes you sick to the stomach doesn’t it?

Captain Dart · Oct 29, 2018

Grendel said:
No it wasn’t - the council had a choice to charge ACL a monthly rent or take the loan.

It took the loan and than charged CCFC the rent that would have covered the loan so we ended up paying for it for them.

As a ccfc fan of many years I bet it makes you sick to the stomach doesn’t it?

Thus covering the hole in finances created by CCFC/Richardsons bad business and not giving state aid as SISU tried to show and failed.
Between the proverbial rock & hard place, a situation largely created to Richardson's fiscal mismanagement.
It sucks for the club but it was not the Council that created the problem.

fernandopartridge · Oct 29, 2018

Captain Dart said:
Thus covering the hole in finances created by CCFC/Richardsons bad business and not giving state aid as SISU tried to show and failed.
Between the proverbial rock & hard place, a situation largely created to Richardson's fiscal mismanagement.
It sucks for the club but it was not the Council that created the problem.

The project was taken over by the council 2 years before the loan was made.

SkyblueBazza · Oct 29, 2018

Nick said:
I don't think the 4 bedroom house analogy works anyway, it is a room in that house one day a week.

Yeah, & a room in a 4 bed house is likely to set you back a minimum of £500 at today's rates.

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SkyblueBazza · Oct 29, 2018

torchomatic said:
With your best friends standing outside with placards trying to get the landlord to charge you even more.

I must've missed something. Are you saying that some City fans are actually saying Wasps should price the club out of the stadium?

Can't believe they would be...but hey - some still think we are a big club.

My take is that SISU missed the bus. I don't believe they were stitched-up...I believe they created an environment where those they need to work with simply don't enjoy working with them in any way. So if someone else comes along with a package that is viewed pretty similar overall - SISU will lose out. So they stitched themselves up.

Now they are trying to stitch Wasps up in court, & latch onto the (let us call it) generally negative feeling in Coventry against Wasps, to get a dirt cheap deal on the rent. Can't blame them for trying to get a good deal, but I don't think they would know what a real good deal looks like. To them a good deal is one where they get everything for nothing...& they seem intent on pursuing that outcome relentlessly.

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duffer · Oct 29, 2018

Astute said:
The same deal that Fisher said they wouldn't have paid as much as Wasps?

Coventry City watch from gloom while Wasps make a buzz at Ricoh Arena

And here is a part of the article.

City’s chief executive, Tim Fisher, insists they do not regret failing to buy the Ricoh, saying they could not agree to taking it on, as Wasps have done, not only for £5.4m but with the council’s £14m loan on the stadium still to pay.

Yes mate, that deal. Well that one plus the 250 year lease extension.

Imagine if we'd have been offered that, publicly. How could Fisher and SISU really have stuck to the £20m,15000 seater out of town stadium bollocks, if that was on the table?

I think the lie to this article was the attempt to buy the Higgs share as alluded to elsewhere.

Anyway, there's no doubt SISU were outmanoeuvred by CCC here, misled even; the question is, was it worth it?

Astute · Oct 30, 2018

fernandopartridge said:
When Fisher talks about not paying what Wasps did, he means not buying out that stupid loan (the one that set ACL up to fail from day one). Perhaps he'll be proven correct, the loan has now been converted to part of a retail bond with a heavy interest payment. It remains to be seen how it all plays out.

I agree and always have done. The sticking point has always been the loan. SISU always wanted it written off. That is why they went to the lengths they did.

Astute · Oct 30, 2018

duffer said:
Yes mate, that deal. Well that one plus the 250 year lease extension.

Imagine if we'd have been offered that, publicly. How could Fisher and SISU really have stuck to the £20m,15000 seater out of town stadium bollocks, if that was on the table?

I think the lie to this article was the attempt to buy the Higgs share as alluded to elsewhere.

Anyway, there's no doubt SISU were outmanoeuvred by CCC here, misled even; the question is, was it worth it?

Everyone but the deluded knew there was no stadium being built. The words three weeks and unencumbered told the whole story.

Captain Dart · Oct 30, 2018

fernandopartridge said:
The project was taken over by the council 2 years before the loan was made.

Irrelevant. I've highlighted the Council land purchase that created the hole in the numbers. It would have been £2M if CCFC had got finance to buy direct from BG.
SISU were always trying to get the bulk of this written off as part of a purchase agreement but Wasps swallowed it whole, which is why they were preferred.

Sky Blue Trust - 2. The CCFC Ltd/Holdings & Ricoh Build Years:1993 to 2007
2003
19th December Development agreement between ACL and CCFC signed
2005
19th August Ricoh Arena opens
2006
29th March Lease & Licence agreement at Ricoh Arena signed
2nd June ACL draw down Yorkshire Bank loan £21m to pay ease premium rather than pay annual rent of 1.9m
27th June Council Arena Construction Completion Report £118,677,000 build cost Purchase, Land purchase £24,000,000

Nick · Oct 30, 2018

Not really irrelevant is it?

Why not extend the lease to 250 years to make it easier to get credit?

fernandopartridge · Oct 30, 2018

Captain Dart said:
Irrelevant. I've highlighted the Council land purchase that created the hole in the numbers. It would have been £2M if CCFC had got finance to buy direct from BG.
SISU were always trying to get the bulk of this written off as part of a purchase agreement but Wasps swallowed it whole, which is why they were preferred.

Sky Blue Trust - 2. The CCFC Ltd/Holdings & Ricoh Build Years:1993 to 2007
2003
19th December Development agreement between ACL and CCFC signed
2005
19th August Ricoh Arena opens
2006
29th March Lease & Licence agreement at Ricoh Arena signed
2nd June ACL draw down Yorkshire Bank loan £21m to pay ease premium rather than pay annual rent of 1.9m
27th June Council Arena Construction Completion Report £118,677,000 build cost Purchase, Land purchase £24,000,000

Why did they put the 50 year leaseholder on the hook for it? What's the fact that the council paid over the odds for the land got to do with CCFC? If CCFC couldn't raise the finance why didn't the council loan them the money at a commercial rate like they did years later with ACL?

CJ_covblaze · Oct 30, 2018

fernandopartridge said:
Why did they put the 50 year leaseholder on the hook for it? What's the fact that the council paid over the odds for the land got to do with CCFC? If CCFC couldn't raise the finance why didn't the council loan them the money at a commercial rate like they did years later with ACL?

Different individuals involved at CCC?

Captain Dart · Oct 30, 2018

fernandopartridge said:
Why did they put the 50 year leaseholder on the hook for it? What's the fact that the council paid over the odds for the land got to do with CCFC? If CCFC couldn't raise the finance why didn't the council loan them the money at a commercial rate like they did years later with ACL?

I don't know why it was only a 50 year lease to begin with. Maybe someone else has a view, what do you think. It seem awfully short for a property lease.

The council paid all that money because Dear Bryan left everyone in the lurch and had to pay the his Dutch contractors by letting them have the deal he had negotiated with BG. They wouldn't sell the land back to the Council at a more reasonable price. I think they held everyone to ransom and were prepared to kill the whole project and do their own thing with the land if they didn't get what they wanted. I can't tell you what money the Contractors made on the deal but I rather think it was a fair bit. Frankly I'm surprised BR didn't delay the decision and try to find a better way to manage the problem. It smells funny don't you think?

I presume the reason for not loaning direct in the first instance was because ACL was intended to be a stand alone commercial enterprise not requiring 'state aid'. The later loan was only made to protect the asset value in difficult circumstances caused by CCFC moving to Northampton. The council loan was assessed by the courts as being acceptable practise but probably would have counted as state aid if done from the get go.

fernandopartridge · Oct 30, 2018

The council's failure to negotiate a decent price for the land is the club's fault, laughable.

Captain Dart · Oct 30, 2018

fernandopartridge said:
The council's failure to negotiate a decent price for the land is the club's fault, laughable.

I don't know why the Council decided to pay that amount and not delay and negotiate harder, it is a question worth asking.
That also smells fishy. Was there something time critical in the situation. Answers on a postcard.

PS I found this link about a £21M commercial finance deal falling through in 2003.
Council to fill £21m hole in Coventry job

fernandopartridge · Oct 31, 2018

Captain Dart said:
I don't know why the Council decided to pay that amount and not delay and negotiate harder, it is a question worth asking.
That also smells fishy. Was there something time critical in the situation. Answers on a postcard.

PS I found this link about a £21M commercial finance deal falling through in 2003.
Council to fill £21m hole in Coventry job

Interesting, again, no reason why CCFC via ACL were on the hook for it. Poor decision after poor decision by all parties really.

I've never really understood why the build cost was so high either, appreciate the decontamination was £20m but the stadium and exhibition hall cost way in excess of equivalent stadia. Something amiss somewhere.

Voice_of_Reason · Oct 31, 2018

What is the latest position ? SISU lost their right to appeal and, since then, there has been no news of them continuing legal action. If no further legal action is being proposed, why won't Wasps now negotiate ?

Magwitch · Nov 1, 2018

Certain sisu will appeal to the Supreme Court Which I believe is the last of a long line of appeals so why come all this way and not go the last bit it’s what happens after should sisu lose the Supreme Court appeal that’s the worry.

skyblueinBaku · Nov 1, 2018

Magwitch said:
Certain sisu will appeal to the Supreme Court Which I believe is the last of a long line of appeals so why come all this way and not go the last bit it’s what happens after should sisu lose the Supreme Court appeal that’s the worry.

I think that they could then appeal to the European Court.

Colin Steins Smile · Nov 1, 2018

As OSB has pointed out the fact is due to Otium [CCFC] being on the last court petition, then in a legal sense the club is taking action against CCC & Wasps. If Wasps are holding their position of not discussing a new agreement whilst there is potential for another legal case, then we could end up homeless due to a miscalculation by one or both sides.
I expect our owners to pursue a case in the Supreme court, as they haven't a clue what else to do!

skyblue025 · Nov 3, 2018

skyblueindorset said:
I think that they could then appeal to the European Court.

Will they be able to after Brexit???

skybluetony176 · Nov 3, 2018

skyblue025 said:
Will they be able to after Brexit???

Depends if there’s a deal or not and how quickly sisu are in a position to lodge a case. No deal means European Courts would lose all jurisdictions in the U.K. on the 29th of March 2019. If there’s a deal European courts will continue to have jurisdiction in the U.K. until the end of the transition period in December 2020. Not sure if cases lodged and running will have any legal bearing in the U.K. if they run past whatever date we do end up leaving so it’s possible that any action tried in the European courts might not reach a conclusion before we leave and therefore have no legal standing in a post brexit Britain. Like most things brexit related I don’t think it’s 100% understood.

skyblue025 · Jan 14, 2019

Have we got a date for the next day in the saga yet?

slyblue57 · Jan 31, 2019

skyblue025 said:
Have we got a date for the next day in the saga yet?

Well anyone know ?

CJ_covblaze · Jan 31, 2019

slyblue57 said:
Well anyone know ?

Nothing as yet. I doubt it’ll be for a few months.

slyblue57 · Jan 31, 2019

Cheers. I d got it in my mind it was early Feb, but my minds not that good

ccfcway · Apr 1, 2019

Any news on when this will
Be announced ?, I thought I read somewhere it would be by end of March ?

Nick · Apr 1, 2019

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