The Ricoh.. (2 Viewers)

SkyBlueCRJ · May 15, 2019

Ashdown said:
There seems to be a good chunk of peeps jumping in quick to point all the fingers everywhere but SISU again ?! What a shambles !

Until we know anything definitive how can we point the finger at SISU when they've simply done something that they're entitled to way back in February? That's not neglecting blame towards SISU, that's just simple facts. It's not like they made the complaint during the negotiations. Instead, their complaint to the European Commission has been exposed months later at a crucial period, for the purpose of pushing individual agendas.

Don't be naive to think posters don't believe SISU are as guilty as the other antagonists in our struggle. We're still in talks according to the club statement so keep a clear head until you have reason not to.

David O'Day · May 15, 2019

Ashdown said:
There seems to be a good chunk of peeps jumping in quick to point all the fingers everywhere but SISU again ?! What a shambles !

Wtf are you talking about

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Badger · May 15, 2019

I guess the complaint was made in Feb in case we left the EU in March.

duffer · May 15, 2019

jordan210 said:
Sounds more and more like a PR exercise to blame Sisu for everything again

As far as I'm concerned, that shows that the information didn't come from a SISU source. So it must have come from someone at the Council. I can't see how that leak isn't a clear breach of confidence.

The Council couldn't be more stupid or bent if they tried - in itself I think this could open them up to further action.

Telfer85 · May 15, 2019

Wasps have pulled out of talks according to Giblet on Twitter.....game over

chiefdave · May 15, 2019

duffer said:
As far as I'm concerned, that shows that the information didn't come from a SISU source. So it must have come from someone at the Council. I can't see how that leak isn't a clear breach of confidence.

The Council couldn't be more stupid or bent if they tried - in itself I think this could open them up to further action.

All seems pretty clear.

Wasps decide they want the club out but can't be seen to be the bad guys so those sympathetic to them leak it to Gilbert knowing he will report it no questions asked, only had to see which social media accounts fired up.

Cue predictable outrage despite not knowing the details, by the time the details emerge that show it has nothing to do with legal action and shouldn't impact talks people are so wound up they aren't listening.

I've always been 100% against anything but peaceful protests that don't disrupt games but as far as I'm concerned now anything is far game. If Wasps want to play dirty they should expect the same back.

fernandopartridge · May 15, 2019

I don't know if it is Wasps, the complaint to the EU ostensibly concerns the state and its authorities, i.e. the council.

Nick · May 15, 2019

fernandopartridge said:
I don't know if it is Wasps, the complaint to the EU ostensibly concerns the state and its authorities, i.e. the council.

Exactly. It's been obvious for years though who pulls the strings

glamour76 · May 15, 2019

SISU go for the jugular now. If we’re destined to ground share then so be it. Nothing to lose now. Let’s drag them all down with us.

djr8369 · May 15, 2019

fernandopartridge said:
I don't know if it is Wasps, the complaint to the EU ostensibly concerns the state and its authorities, i.e. the council.

So why are wasps pulling out? Covering for the council?

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Nick · May 15, 2019

djr8369 said:
So why are wasps pulling out? Covering for the council?

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What do you think they have been doing since the start?

djr8369 · May 15, 2019

Nick said:
What do you think they have been doing since the start?

I think they’ve been doing exactly that. I’m trying to get other people thinking.

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Nick · May 15, 2019

djr8369 said:
I think they’ve been doing exactly that. I’m trying to get other people thinking.

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Not much difference to the whole butts situation where people seem to have memory loss.

The Lurker · May 15, 2019

duffer said:
As far as I'm concerned, that shows that the information didn't come from a SISU source. So it must have come from someone at the Council. I can't see how that leak isn't a clear breach of confidence.

The Council couldn't be more stupid or bent if they tried - in itself I think this could open them up to further action.

How would the council know?

The Lurker · May 15, 2019

chiefdave said:
All seems pretty clear.

Wasps decide they want the club out but can't be seen to be the bad guys so those sympathetic to them leak it to Gilbert knowing he will report it no questions asked, only had to see which social media accounts fired up.

Cue predictable outrage despite not knowing the details, by the time the details emerge that show it has nothing to do with legal action and shouldn't impact talks people are so wound up they aren't listening.

I've always been 100% against anything but peaceful protests that don't disrupt games but as far as I'm concerned now anything is far game. If Wasps want to play dirty they should expect the same back.

so your saying sisu are blameless?

djr8369 · May 15, 2019

chiefdave said:
All seems pretty clear.

Wasps decide they want the club out but can't be seen to be the bad guys so those sympathetic to them leak it to Gilbert knowing he will report it no questions asked, only had to see which social media accounts fired up.

Cue predictable outrage despite not knowing the details, by the time the details emerge that show it has nothing to do with legal action and shouldn't impact talks people are so wound up they aren't listening.

I've always been 100% against anything but peaceful protests that don't disrupt games but as far as I'm concerned now anything is far game. If Wasps want to play dirty they should expect the same back.

It’s in wasps interests to have the club playing there and making money from them isn’t it?

So why so desperate to stop any investigation...

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Cavan O'Doherty · May 15, 2019

Point the finger wherever you like, this is an absolute disgrace! Was the first time in a few seasons that I was going to buy a season ticket, now that’s out the window. Was looking forward to a season where we could just focus on the football, is it really that much to ask?

Broken Hearted Sky Blue · May 15, 2019

Ye

Cavan O'Doherty said:
Point the finger wherever you like, this is an absolute disgrace! Was the first time in a few seasons that I was going to buy a season ticket, now that’s out the window. Was looking forward to a season where we could just focus on the football, is it really that much to ask?[/QUOTE
Yes

Pete in Portugal · May 15, 2019

The Lurker said:
How would the council know?

Once the EC decided to make formal investigation, they would have been obliged to inform CCC. But, if the complaint was lodged towards the end of Feb., this decision was probably only made fairly recently.,

higgs · May 15, 2019

Cavan O'Doherty said:
Point the finger wherever you like, this is an absolute disgrace! Was the first time in a few seasons that I was going to buy a season ticket, now that’s out the window. Was looking forward to a season where we could just focus on the football, is it really that much to ask?

You would be sick of the off field shite alright

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HuckerbyDublinWhelan · May 15, 2019

The Lurker said:
so your saying sisu are blameless?

Of course not - wasps are a symptom of SISU. It’s an investigation by the European Commission led by a complaint made whilst the legals were on going.

Literally zero anything can do now

COVKIDSNEVERQUIT · May 15, 2019

MusicDating said:
Question to Wasps needs to be if they knew SISU had complained to the EC when they entered negotiations? If SISU didn't tell them, then that was a bit fucking silly.

It's more than it being Silly, it undermines the whole process of the talks, ie are SISU being open and honest.

Sky Blue Harry H · May 15, 2019

Everybody...……………..

COVKIDSNEVERQUIT · May 15, 2019

oldskyblue58 said:
Awful lot of second guessing going on, so i will add some of my own

Firstly i think it might well turn out that CCFC & Wasps agreed a deal but that SISU had not signed it off. Could a deal still be done? perhaps, but this news greatly risks that not being the case. I am two minds whether we will or wont be at the Ricoh next season. I do think being elsewhere will greatly risk CCFC though.

I suspect SISU could not sign off any contract because it said no more legals, something they knew might well not be the case. To sign would have left them open to legal action

But people need to be really clear these complaints and court actions are not about the well being of CCFC, it is all about the SISU investors and always has been

Having been made aware of the complaint Gilbert had to put it out there, just as any other reporter would have

Technically there is still no legal action going on, but there is a possibility there will be - that will be expensive and time consuming. Up until now then it was possible for both sides to say it was ok to talk. Has it only just become apparent that there is a tangible threat of legal action..... if the decision to complain to EC was February when did Wasps find out, i would think it wasnt until just recently.

I dont have a problem with a time delay between the complaint being made and news now becoming available. If complaint was end of February then by the time the EC have processed it and informed CCC then it is around the right timescale. I would think the news has come from CCC, who i assume are not involved in the rent discussions and therefore not covered by the NDA. I also suspect that CCC were not aware of the complaint until notified by the EC.

At present it isn't legal action but a complaint to the EC that may or may not lead to investigation which in turn may or may not lead to a referral to the European Court of Justice (ECJ). At which point it becomes legal action against CCC. If said legal action is successful for SISU then it gets referred back to the UK courts to implement EU law. That means action in English courts after the ECJ judgement entirely different to both JR's (which were an examination of process primarily). That could take years and could include the requirement for Wasps to repay the state aid deemed to have been received.

To be able to go to the EC you have to show all other avenues of challenge have been exhausted - that box is ticked

An investigation by the EC could take 12 months or more before decided and the case being heard if referred to the ECJ years after that

Going to depend as to how the wording of the complaint has been put as to if the same ground as the JR's is covered or if there is more added

There is not an immediate threat to Wasps but there is a potential financial threat in the future. That could cost hundreds of £1000's to fight and if they lose bankrupt Wasps and seriously affect their owner.

Yes the case, if it goes to the ECJ could take years to arrive at a decision. However the financial danger for Wasps could arrive sooner than that. Recent ECJ case law allows for an interim order to be made in the English Courts to repay (with interest) the state aid prior to the case being decided. That aside such legal action is going to be expensive for all sides

The challenge in the ECJ could seriously hamper the refinancing of the Bond, which has already been hampered by the accounting irregularities (although as the time goes on those decrease in effect assuming no more are discovered). To say that Wasps are not threatened by this is a nonsense. CCC may of course win any case if one is even brought so the threat goes away.

Just because a party fights a case or demands it go away is not an admission of guilt or makes them wrong. At this stage just because a party brings a case does not mean they are right or that their case has any merit at all. The challenge is high risk, but a challenge brought by who? Otium, SBS&L, ARVO, SISU, someone else, some or all of those

A thought comes to mind that this is not just about CCFC. I have had a discussion some time ago where it was suggested that it was a case to establish a principle in a general sense and challenge existing interpretations of law. In which case you would think there is more than SISU involved behind the scenes

Which brings me to another thought. If SISU have outsourced the costs to a litigation buy out fund, CCFC's owners may not actually be in control of where this may lead. Even if they wanted to stop they cant because they have agreed for someone else has conduct of the claims. For the litigation buy out fund, which would take on high risk projects, it is a choice to accept the loss or to carry on with the potential prospect of huge gains in cases other than SISU's. The litigation buy fund would have major funding available, no brainer for them irrespective of what SISU want

Final thought, if SISU won the end game i would not expect there to be huge funds coming to CCFC, by the time the litigation buy out fund has taken their cut (usually high eg 40% or more) SISU recovered their in house costs, repaid the loans & Interest due to ARVO, SBS&L, repaid the investors funds, repaid the preference share dividends Otium owes etc, then the figure is going to be very significantly less than fans might expect

Thanks oldskyblue58, some's it up perfectly.

As Tim Fisher says, SISU batter you into submission.

Ashdown · May 15, 2019

chiefdave said:
All seems pretty clear.

Wasps decide they want the club out but can't be seen to be the bad guys so those sympathetic to them leak it to Gilbert knowing he will report it no questions asked, only had to see which social media accounts fired up.

Cue predictable outrage despite not knowing the details, by the time the details emerge that show it has nothing to do with legal action and shouldn't impact talks people are so wound up they aren't listening.

I've always been 100% against anything but peaceful protests that don't disrupt games but as far as I'm concerned now anything is far game. If Wasps want to play dirty they should expect the same back.

You gonna be leading the charge then Tim . Nah didn't think so !!

Ashdown · May 15, 2019

David O'Day said:
Wtf are you talking about

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They really rely on thick morons like you !

Ashdown · May 15, 2019

Cavan O'Doherty said:
Point the finger wherever you like, this is an absolute disgrace! Was the first time in a few seasons that I was going to buy a season ticket, now that’s out the window. Was looking forward to a season where we could just focus on the football, is it really that much to ask?

Until SISU have gone, we just can't move on !

covmark · May 15, 2019

Ashdown said:
They really rely on thick morons like you !

Oh the irony.

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covmark · May 15, 2019

Ashdown said:
You gonna be leading the charge then Tim . Nah didn't think so !!

If all else fails, call someone Tim.
Well done.

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Ashdown · May 15, 2019

Look I know there are few innocents in this but FFS the SISU apologists start to make them look like they cared about CCFC all along !! It's all depressing !

covmark · May 15, 2019

Ashdown said:
Look I know there are few innocents in this but FFS the SISU apologists start to make them look like they cared about CCFC all along !! It's all depressing !

Yep, its depressing. Thing is I dont really see any Sisu apologists. They're massive wankers. The franchise are effectively evicting us from our own city though. It's a fucking travesty.

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Nick · May 15, 2019

Ashdown said:
Look I know there are few innocents in this but FFS the SISU apologists start to make them look like they cared about CCFC all along !! It's all depressing !

It's as if there should be a book of overused clichés.

Ashdown · May 15, 2019

covmark said:
Yep, its depressing. Thing is I dont really see any Sisu apologists. They're massive wankers. The franchise are effectively evicting us from our own city though. It's a fucking travesty.

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Yes it's disgusting, Wasps should never have had access to the Ricoh and the council are complete traitors but.,.....our friends from Mayfair have been huge instigators of so much bad feeling and have played a major part in this grand fuck up and yes... It does appear some posters defend them at every turn.

Liquid Gold · May 15, 2019

Ashdown said:
Yes it's disgusting, Wasps should never have had access to the Ricoh and the council are complete traitors but.,.....our friends from Mayfair have been huge instigators of so much bad feeling and have played a major part in this grand fuck up and yes... It does appear some posters defend them at every turn.

Point to one defence of them

Wyken Sky Blue · May 15, 2019

Ashdown said:
Look I know there are few innocents in this but FFS the SISU apologists start to make them look like they cared about CCFC all along !! It's all depressing !

Everyone is to blame but let's investigate the last couple of months:

Email confirming Wasps were approached in March 2012
Wasps refusing to deal unless the legals were dropped
SISU dropped the legals
Talks resume and it became apparent that a two year deal was on the table
Today Wasps pull out

Tell me what SISU have done wrong in the last two months?

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