The unbeaten run - the objective view (2 Viewers)

ms639 · Dec 20, 2020

Now I know I’m likely to get dogs abuse for this from some and yes I’m ranting the morning after a defeat but let’s look at the unbeaten run objectively.

Of the 8 games unbeaten we drew 5 of them, 6 of those 8 games were against teams below us in the table and the other 2 were against those in the relegation mix with us.

Yea we were leaking goals before the run and MR had to sure up the leaky defence but we were so so negative in those 8 games. The Rotherham game was absolutely an anomaly, they were asleep for the first 15 and the game was done.

MR’s approach to the games later in the ‘run’ was far far too negative. We had to put far more pressure on Wednesday yesterday. McCallum and Dabo have been anonymous because of this negativity and the space between the midfield and anyone we play up front is frightening, we have created very very little in the last 2 games and we really should be taking the game to the team bottom of the league.

This isn’t moaning for the sake of it and I absolutely have faith in MR, I just wonder if in 6-8 weeks time we’ll look back on this run against the worst teams in the division and think that we should have picked up more, been more aggressive and not set up to draw games 0-0. Go to bournemouth and Watford and set up for that result by all means, not against the teams in the bottom 3.

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clint van damme · Dec 20, 2020

ms639 said:
Now I know I’m likely to get dogs abuse for this from some and yes I’m ranting the morning after a defeat but let’s look at the unbeaten run objectively.

Of the 8 games unbeaten we drew 5 of them, 6 of those 8 games were against teams below us in the table and the other 2 were against those in the relegation mix with us.

Yea we were leaking goals before the run and MR had to sure up the leaky defence but we were so so negative in those 8 games. The Rotherham game was absolutely an anomaly, they were asleep for the first 15 and the game was done.

MR’s approach to the games later in the ‘run’ was far far too negative. We had to put far more pressure on Wednesday yesterday. McCallum and Dabo have been anonymous because of this negativity and the space between the midfield and anyone we play up front is frightening, we have created very very little in the last 2 games and we really should be taking the game to the team bottom of the league.

This isn’t moaning for the sake of it and I absolutely have faith in MR, I just wonder if in 6-8 weeks time we’ll look back on this run against the worst teams in the division and think that we should have picked up more, been more aggressive and not set up to draw games 0-0. Go to bournemouth and Watford and set up for that result by all means, not against the teams in the bottom 3.

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Not sure you'll get abuse, valid criticisms and some good points raised, it the hysterical nonsense that draws abuse as far as I can see.
There's one thing I'd take issue with, not just in your post but through other posters as well and that's calling Rotherham an anomaly.
Why when we get a positive result is it always an anomaly as you've described the Rotherham game, or we were lucky because they made an error (Cardiff), or lucky because their striker missed a couple of sitters (Blues)?

Why isn't a result like yesterday an anomaly?

For what it's worth I think Robins got it wrong both yesterday and against Derby in that it was obvious the games were turning in the oppositions favour and he did nothing until they'd taken the lead.

pastythegreat · Dec 20, 2020

ms639 said:
Now I know I’m likely to get dogs abuse for this from some and yes I’m ranting the morning after a defeat but let’s look at the unbeaten run objectively.

Of the 8 games unbeaten we drew 5 of them, 6 of those 8 games were against teams below us in the table and the other 2 were against those in the relegation mix with us.

Yea we were leaking goals before the run and MR had to sure up the leaky defence but we were so so negative in those 8 games. The Rotherham game was absolutely an anomaly, they were asleep for the first 15 and the game was done.

MR’s approach to the games later in the ‘run’ was far far too negative. We had to put far more pressure on Wednesday yesterday. McCallum and Dabo have been anonymous because of this negativity and the space between the midfield and anyone we play up front is frightening, we have created very very little in the last 2 games and we really should be taking the game to the team bottom of the league.

This isn’t moaning for the sake of it and I absolutely have faith in MR, I just wonder if in 6-8 weeks time we’ll look back on this run against the worst teams in the division and think that we should have picked up more, been more aggressive and not set up to draw games 0-0. Go to bournemouth and Watford and set up for that result by all means, not against the teams in the bottom 3.

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Couldn't agree more. I genuinely think with no Kelly now, yesterdays loss starts a poor run. I predict we lose our next 3. Our "good" run (last 8) hasn't exactly been good, just unbeaten. Robins has been FAR too negative. Weve been far too afraid of losing games to have had any chance at all of winning them. Something needs changing, is it tactics? Mindset? Fear? Quality? All of the above? Im not sure, but we can play much better than we've shown, we play like we did v Brizzle/Swansea amd we can, on our day, beat any team in this league. Problem is, we're starting games negatively trying not to lose rather than trying to win. We've missed a chance of beating a few of the shitter teams in the league and putting daylight between us and relegation. We have a relatively easy January, so as long as the next 3 games don't go completely tits up then we can try and claw it back in Jan. Carry on in Jan like we have done then our tough Feb fixtures will see us sucked right back in to the relegation dog fight and its going to be a very tough/uncomfortable end to the season.

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ms639 · Dec 20, 2020

clint van damme said:
Not sure you'll get abuse, valid criticisms and some good points raised, it the hysterical nonsense that draws abuse as far as I can see.
There's one thing I'd take issue with, not just in your post but through other posters as well and that's calling Rotherham an anomaly.
Why when we get a positive result is it always an anomaly as you've described the Rotherham game, or we were lucky because they made an error (Cardiff), or lucky because their striker missed a couple of sitters (Blues)?

Why isn't a result like yesterday an anomaly?

For what it's worth I think Robins got it wrong both yesterday and against Derby in that it was obvious the games were turning in the oppositions favour and he did nothing until they'd taken the lead.

I guess it’s the scoring of 3 goals which is anomalous specifically. We are really struggling to create chances. Praying that the return of godden changes that but yet to be seen.

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clint van damme · Dec 20, 2020

ms639 said:
I guess it’s the scoring of 3 goals which is anomalous specifically. We are really struggling to create chances. Praying that the return of godden changes that but yet to be seen.

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but we created 4 or 5 decent chances in a short spell yesterday but didn't convert them. Does that mean Wednesday were lucky?
Not in my book, it was our fault for being wasteful, but I have to apply that same logic to when the opposition miss chances.
We definitely need Godden back, whether he's good enough at this level or not he's clearly the best striker at the club.

Bristol sky blue · Dec 20, 2020

Good points made on this thread.
I would be more worried if we had not created chances at all yesterday - let's hope Godden stays fit and is not pushed back into action too soon.
In the 2nd half we put a lot of crosses in / around the 6 yard box with no-one getting on the end of them, so we need to have players busting a gut to do that, which we clearly did not have yesterday.

I think it may be worth throwing on Will Bapaga as a sub if we are struggling (rather than Kastaneer obviously!), he has pace and is willing to take the game to the opposition.

clint van damme · Dec 20, 2020

Bristol sky blue said:
Good points made on this thread.
I would be more worried if we had not created chances at all yesterday - let's hope Godden stays fit and is not pushed back into action too soon.
In the 2nd half we put a lot of crosses in / around the 6 yard box with no-one getting on the end of them, so we need to have players busting a gut to do that, which we clearly did not have yesterday.

I think it may be worth throwing on Will Bapaga as a sub if we are struggling (rather than Kastaneer obviously!), he has pace and is willing to take the game to the opposition.

I've not been in agreement with people wanting to throw Bapaga on but given the choice of him or Kastaneer then I'd choose the young lad every time.

Esoterica · Dec 20, 2020

Specifically it is the away games at Norwich, Derby and Sheffield Weds that rankled with me. All 3 of those games were eminently winnable matches.
People were arguing over systems but if you set up negatively in a 3-5-2, 3-6-1 or 4-2-3-1 the system becomes largely irrelevant because they are never going to produce cohesive team performances. Fluidity at one end of the pitch is sacrificed for defensive solidity.

The consequence of setting up negatively is that we are then no longer relying on the team to score goals but individuals within the team to do something outstanding to win games and we do not have many players capable of outstanding at this level.
It's no surprise that all our forward and attacking midfield players, with the exception of Godden, have been panned for much of the season but that's as much what they are being asked to do within their limited ability than it is purely about their ability as footballers. Jamie Allen had a good game yesterday and the reason why was that he played deep and so was receiving short passes and had players around him to pass to.

During this unbeaten run, I don't feel we have approached games differently dependent on opposition and circumstances. We got out of jail with late goals against Norwich and Derby and couldn't manage it yesterday. The Rotherham game showed what can happen when you score early goals and that was the only game this season, 1 game in 20 matches, where we have scored in the opening 15 minutes.

Much of last season's good unbeaten run was the same, littered with early goals in the first 15 minutes of games - McCallum x2 , Rose, Bakayoko, Godden x2. It is very hard for poor teams, low on confidence, to chase a game for 80 minutes. What a difference 3 or 4 more points would make going into the difficult New Year run of fixtures.

stevefloyd · Dec 20, 2020

Bristol sky blue said:
Good points made on this thread.
I would be more worried if we had not created chances at all yesterday - let's hope Godden stays fit and is not pushed back into action too soon.
In the 2nd half we put a lot of crosses in / around the 6 yard box with no-one getting on the end of them, so we need to have players busting a gut to do that, which we clearly did not have yesterday.

I think it may be worth throwing on Will Bapaga as a sub if we are struggling (rather than Kastaneer obviously!), he has pace and is willing to take the game to the opposition.

I agree with Bapaga, in his last game for us can't remember if it was a freindly or a cup game but he was very lively, he was desperate to score perhaps too desperate and he was snatching at chances but with him running at the oppositions defence that day he was a real live wire...Robins probably watches him in training and thinks Baka trains harder and we all know how that pans out!

stupot07 · Dec 20, 2020

I think you've made some valid points and would echo a lot of what you say about negativity, and trying not to lose vs trying to beat teams around us.

I would say Rotherham was a bit of an anomaly not because they were poor, but that were really took the game to them from kick off.

I am feeling frustrated as we could have easily have come away with another 4-6 points in that run. It won't take much to get sucked back into the bottom 3-4.

Not having a pop at Walker but this sums up our negativity and how isolated our strikers are, but Walkers last shot was against Luton 4 games ago. Edit: just worked out that he has played 260 mins and started all 3 games since his last shot.

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stevefloyd · Dec 20, 2020

stupot07 said:
I think you've made some valid points and would echo a lot of what you say about negativity, and trying not to lose vs trying to beat teams around us.

I would say Rotherham was a bit of an anomaly not because they were poor, but that were really took the game to them from kick off.

I am feeling frustrated as we could have easily have come away with another 4-6 points in that run. It won't take much to get sucked back into the bottom 3-4.

Not having a pop at Walker but this sums up our negativity and how isolated our strikers are, but Walkers last shot was against Luton 4 games ago. Edit: just worked out that he has played 260 mins and started all 3 games since his last shot.

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Better than Baka his last shot was 3 seasons ago

Sky Blue Pete · Dec 20, 2020

There aren’t 6 teams below us

ms639 · Dec 20, 2020

Sky Blue Pete said:
There aren’t 6 teams below us

QPR
Forest
Rotherham
Derby
Wednesday
Wycombe

????????

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shmmeee · Dec 20, 2020

Esoterica said:
Specifically it is the away games at Norwich, Derby and Sheffield Weds that rankled with me. All 3 of those games were eminently winnable matches.
People were arguing over systems but if you set up negatively in a 3-5-2, 3-6-1 or 4-2-3-1 the system becomes largely irrelevant because they are never going to produce cohesive team performances. Fluidity at one end of the pitch is sacrificed for defensive solidity.

The consequence of setting up negatively is that we are then no longer relying on the team to score goes but individuals within the team to do something outstanding to win games and we do not have many players capable of outstanding at this level.
It's no surprise that all our forward and attacking midfield players, with the exception of Godden, have been panned for much of the season but that's as much what they are being asked to do within their limited ability than it is purely about their ability as footballers. Jamie Allen had a good game yesterday and the reason why was that he played deep and so was receiving short passes and had players around him to pass to.

During this unbeaten run, I don't feel we have approached games differently dependent on opposition and circumstances. We got out of jail with late goals against Norwich and Derby and couldn't manage it yesterday. The Rotherham game showed what can happen when you score early goals and that was the only game this season, 1 game in 20 matches, where we have scored in the opening 15 minutes.

Much of last season's good unbeaten run was the same, littered with early goals in the first 15 minutes of games - McCallum x2 , Rose, Bakayoko, Godden x2. It is very hard for poor teams, low on confidence, to chase a game for 80 minutes. What a difference 3 or 4 more points would make going into the difficult New Year run of fixtures.

Basically exactly how I feel.

Not bothered about Huddersfield, I could see they would play through us. Norwich were poor as were Derby and Sheff We’d and we should’ve been more ruthless.

In a way I hope yesterday ends up being a net positive and teaches Robins to listen to himself and have a bit of belief. We can cause teams problems when we try. And we aren’t good enough defensively to soak up pressure to 75 mins before trying. There’s too many players with an individual error in them in our back line. And that’s not a criticism that’s the facts of playing on our budget/mode. Players that don’t make the occasional error cost a lot more.

Magwitch · Dec 20, 2020

stevefloyd said:
Better than Baka his last shot was 3 seasons ago

Imo that’s a fault of our team we are shot shy, it’s okay playing neat passing football around the pitch but nothing beats having a pop at goal. Trying to think how many we had second half yesterday ( I missed the first) can’t remember Westwood making that many saves.

clint van damme · Dec 20, 2020

Magwitch said:
Imo that’s a fault of our team we are shot shy, it’s okay playing neat passing football around the pitch but nothing beats having a pop at goal. Trying to think how many we had second half yesterday ( I missed the first) can’t remember Westwood making that many saves.

we had 4 or 5 decent chances in 15 minutes! One was cleared off the line and Westwood had to make a decent save.
Your point stands but using the second half yesterday as an example wasn't a good choice.
We were wasteful.

shmmeee · Dec 20, 2020

Yeah their fans are saying Westwood kept them in it, he definitely made saves:

‘Class’, ‘Makes a difference’ – Many Sheffield Wednesday fans are loving one man’s performance vs Coventry City

Tony Pulis collected his first three points as Sheffield Wednesday manager following a hard-earned victory over Coventry City at Hillsborough on Saturday. Pulis had endured a difficult start to his reign in the Wednesday dugout, collecting just three points from his opening eight matches as Owls...

footballleagueworld.co.uk

Brighton Sky Blue · Dec 20, 2020

Yesterday’s result and performance is still pissing me off massively, you can see what a boost it is for them. Best forget about it and try and bounce back next Saturday and focus like mad on bolstering central midfield.

procdoc · Dec 20, 2020

People saying we should have beat Norwich away, they’re top of the league and will probably be there or thereabouts come the end of the season.
Getting a point against them was a good result as not too many teams have managed that. Baffling

clint van damme · Dec 20, 2020

procdoc said:
People saying we should have beat Norwich away, they’re top of the league and will probably be there or thereabouts come the end of the season.
Getting a point against them was a good result as not too many teams have managed that. Baffling

I agree, don't think you can lump Norwich in alongside Derby and Wednesday, even if they had a lot of injuries.

Tommo1993 · Dec 20, 2020

100% agree. The negative style of play is sure to send us one way. Even in our more ‘solid’ of games we still look likely to concede, albeit not as frequently. Got what we deserved yesterday in that respect. I know we’re missing key players, their replacements don’t even half fill their shoes. I’m just so, so against accepting a draw before the game. Remind myself that I said I’d be happy to stay up on GD, but our negative play will see us in big trouble. Regardless of what our aim is, games like yesterday are far from good enough.

procdoc · Dec 20, 2020

Tommo1993 said:
100% agree. The negative style of play is sure to send us one way. Even in our more ‘solid’ of games we still look likely to concede, albeit not as frequently. Got what we deserved yesterday in that respect. I know we’re missing key players, their replacements don’t even half fill their shoes. I’m just so, so against accepting a draw before the game. Remind myself that I said I’d be happy to stay up on GD, but our negative play will see us in big trouble. Regardless of what our aim is, games like yesterday are far from good enough.

It sent us further up the table than we were playing a positive style of play.
Yes we have played poorer sides of late but people need to realise we are shit by championship standards as barely any of our squad have ever played at this level.
Robins was reactive rather than proactive yesterday which is a valid criticism and I’m not saying I enjoy the style of football currently. But needs must

AFCCOVENTRY · Dec 20, 2020

Robins needs to think carefully this week about continuing with negative play or actually going for it. When Giles came on he really started to cause problems and get balls into the box.

Against Stoke, Robins could bring in Hamer, Giles and Godden and that will really freshen up our creative and attacking threat. Do I think he will? No. Will probably just be Hamer and set-up to hopefully get a draw.

cc84cov · Dec 20, 2020

Tommo1993 said:
100% agree. The negative style of play is sure to send us one way. Even in our more ‘solid’ of games we still look likely to concede, albeit not as frequently. Got what we deserved yesterday in that respect. I know we’re missing key players, their replacements don’t even half fill their shoes. I’m just so, so against accepting a draw before the game. Remind myself that I said I’d be happy to stay up on GD, but our negative play will see us in big trouble. Regardless of what our aim is, games like yesterday are far from good enough.

Said for weeks and got slated for it we set up far too negative for me,yesterday pulis made changes at 0-0 to go and win the game it’s not something I see robins do often...His use of subs really riles me

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Dec 20, 2020

We did need to have a bit of a rethink to tighten up at the back after the start to the season, but that change also coincided with us going from playing teams expected to be challenging in this divisions to those more average.

I think MR approached yesterday too negatively overall (which given the line-up he selected surprised me). We started pretty well then got more conservative as the game wore on, looking to play for the draw it seemed. A lot of players were off the boil yesterday and we clearly missed Hamer and Kelly in midfield, so there are other factors involved but at times the tactics do seem to stifle us going forward which is fine against better teams but against the likes of Wednesday with their problem we need to show more intent.

I was looking at Dec and Jan as being the best chance to get points on the point given the standard of opposition we've faced and so far we've done reasonably well in that respect, bar yesterday. I'm just hoping that this spate of injuries isn't going to set us back too much in that quest.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Dec 20, 2020

cc84cov said:
Said for weeks and got slated for it we set up far too negative for me,yesterday pulis made changes at 0-0 to go and win the game it’s not something I see robins do often...His use of subs really riles me

Trouble is the one time he tried it it worked against us so his reluctance to do so was probably intensified by that. Some managers use things like that as confirmation. Like Coleman when we got a 0-0 against the lowest scorers in the league and led to us spending the next two months keeping that negative mindset because he'd taken that one game as confirmation it was the right thing to do. The following half dozen where it didn't were aberrations.

Brighton Sky Blue · Dec 20, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Trouble is the one time he tried it it worked against us so his reluctance to do so was probably intensified by that. Some managers use things like that as confirmation. Like Coleman when we got a 0-0 against the lowest scorers in the league and led to us spending the next two months keeping that negative mindset because he'd taken that one game as confirmation it was the right thing to do. The following half dozen where it didn't were aberrations.

I do think yesterday was just a bridge too far with Hamer taken out of the side, some players running on empty and so on. We need reinforcements badly

Nick · Dec 20, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I do think yesterday was just a bridge too far with Hamer taken out of the side, some players running on empty and so on. We need reinforcements badly

If players are running on empty then why the reluctance to make changes in some games until the last minute.

Why take dabo and McCallum off the other week in the last minute?

Brighton Sky Blue · Dec 20, 2020

Nick said:
If players are running on empty then why the reluctance to make changes in some games until the last minute.

Why take dabo and McCallum off the other week in the last minute?

I’m not defending that. It was crying out for Giles yesterday.

Irish Sky Blue · Dec 20, 2020

At the start of the unbeaten run there were, I think, only 3 teams below us and we were out of the relegation zone on goal difference.
Nine games later we are 18th in the table and 6 points above the relegation zone. All this in a league 2 levels higher that 3 years ago.

Esoterica · Dec 20, 2020

procdoc said:
People saying we should have beat Norwich away, they’re top of the league and will probably be there or thereabouts come the end of the season.
Getting a point against them was a good result as not too many teams have managed that. Baffling

And missing Pukki, Buendia and Cantwell i.e. all their goals and creativity, with no recognised striker on the pitch and a defensive midfielder at LB. I'm not sure if you watched that game but they were terrible, absolutely there for the taking.
We decided to play Bakayoko, who hadn't played a single minute for at least 5 games, up front on his own for 62 minutes and didn't go two up top until 77. We might not have beaten them but we never tried to.

Irish Sky Blue · Dec 20, 2020

Also the run was achieved without our best striker, mostly without our first choice goalkeeper, and for the last game, without our captain who along With Hamer, who was also missing, is arguably our most influential player.
I want us to play sparkling attacking football. Even more, I want us to survive this season. Sometimes a bit of pragmatism is needed.

Irish Sky Blue · Dec 20, 2020

Esoterica said:
And missing Pukki, Buendia and Cantwell i.e. all their goals and creativity, with no recognised striker on the pitch and a defensive midfielder at LB. I'm not sure if you watched that game but they were terrible, absolutely there for the taking.
We decided to play Bakayoko, who hadn't played a single minute for at least 5 games, up front on his own for 62 minutes and didn't go two up top until 77. We might not have beaten them but we never tried to.

I watched the game. I don't think Norwich were terrible at all. I think they were hanging on at the end but that was due to the way we played. Norwich kept the ball well and made us chase but apart from a mad five mins and a hotly disputed penalty, they didn't trouble us. We thoroughly deserved the point, arguably, the win. I would image the transfer value and wages of the team Norwich put out that day dwarfed ours. Despite their extensive injury list, Norwich are clear at the top of the league, so it doesn't seem that they have been a soft touch for anyone else either.
There is no guarantee that if we had of been more expansive we would have won. I think it is just as likely that Norwich might have picked us off. The one thing that is certain is that the point achieved is one more towards the 50 we need for survival.
Four years ago I seen us beaten 6-1 at Carrow Road in a game that Norwich could quite easily have hit double figures in. A few weeks ago we were more than a match for them. I think that shows the progress made.

procdoc · Dec 20, 2020

Esoterica said:
And missing Pukki, Buendia and Cantwell i.e. all their goals and creativity, with no recognised striker on the pitch and a defensive midfielder at LB. I'm not sure if you watched that game but they were terrible, absolutely there for the taking.
We decided to play Bakayoko, who hadn't played a single minute for at least 5 games, up front on his own for 62 minutes and didn't go two up top until 77. We might not have beaten them but we never tried to.

We got a point against the league leaders away from home. It’s a very good result regardless of their injuries. They still had players who have top flight experience and are also full internationals.
Plus at the time we were in a worse position than we are now. Again your opinion on this is baffling

cc84cov · Dec 20, 2020

Nick said:
If players are running on empty then why the reluctance to make changes in some games until the last minute.

Why take dabo and McCallum off the other week in the last minute?

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The unbeaten run - the objective view (2 Viewers)

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