Thorn Starting to get impatient? (6 Viewers)

Macca · Jun 12, 2012

Nonleagueherewecome said:
Couldn't disagree more. Lots of these people can't wait to jump on the managers back. You rate the football intelligence of those posters much higher than I do! I have no idea what game they are watching most weeks...

As far as AT is concerned, I don't believe he was given even close to resources to do the job of keeping us up last season. I will not go over the same old arguments yet again in a middle of an off-season when he has so far been able to sign ZERO players! Where the hell people who want to have a go at the manager now are coming from I do not know, but I have to conclude that they are just naturally vindictive.

Don t know how my name got mixed up in that.
Anyway I would never say I ve jumped on a managers back really, just try and analyse what I see. I agree that people have different perceptions of what they watch. I read people on here sometimes talk about attractive football and I have similar " what game were they watching thoughts" cos I haven t seen attractive football up there for 12 years. I ve seen us do well and get a good win but never attractive football

Nonleagueherewecome · Jun 12, 2012

Erm...they add 30 seconds per sub, you "do the math"!

As for "crap"-s'alrite Mex, I think that about most of your posts!

Nonleagueherewecome · Jun 12, 2012

Macca said:
Don t know how my name got mixed up in that.
Anyway I would never say I ve jumped on a managers back really, just try and analyse what I see. I agree that people have different perceptions of what they watch. I read people on here sometimes talk about attractive football and I have similar " what game were they watching thoughts" cos I haven t seen attractive football up there for 12 years. I ve seen us do well and get a good win but never attractive football

Yeah that's probably fair comment. And anyway, your droll wit would more than make up for it in my eyes

Macca · Jun 12, 2012

Nonleagueherewecome said:
Yeah that's probably fair comment. And anyway, your droll wit would more than make up for it in my eyes

It certainly rhymes with wit

sw88 · Jun 12, 2012

It's about time this forum returned to being a place for opinions, discussions and debates

Grendel · Jun 12, 2012

Nonleagueherewecome said:
If we had a load of money would I want Thorn as manager? Hell yes. Did you not see what he did with a few reasonable players that Aidy had heading for relegation season before last? Best football I've seen City play since Snoz. The same squad would have challenged foe r the play-offs if he'd had them last season, and based on his tenure the previous year, I have read no coherent arguments why we wouldn't have done. If he had just 2m to spend next season I'd expect top two, no problem. That's a darn sight less than Southampton, Huddersfield and Charlton have spent to get out of this division, too.

This is hyperbole of mind mending proportions. So the 10 games in charge (in which he accumulated the same number of points as Boothroyd in his first 10 games) his football was the best since the late 80's. So it was better than the years we had Dublin, Whelan, Huckerby, Hadji et al. So he has the same number of points as his predecessor in his first 10 games and that leads to an obvious conclusion that we would be in the play-offs.

If this is the case there is only one natural conclusion. You are far superior than any Board of Directors of a football club who aspire to be the next Charlton, Huddersfield and even those mediocre men from Southampton as all these clubs need to do is remove their manager appoint Thorn and then they are off and away. Oh yes I am sure they have already tried but no doubt he has turned down numerous offers to get a club into the play offs as he cares.

Grendel · Jun 12, 2012

Nonleagueherewecome said:
Couldn't disagree more. Lots of these people can't wait to jump on the managers back. You rate the football intelligence of those posters much higher than I do! I have no idea what game they are watching most weeks...
.

A bit rich when you then say the football is of a higher dimension and excitement level that Huckerby, Dublin etc. could possibly aspire to. The first half of last season was the most dull, insipid football ever witnessed by this football club.

lordsummerisle · Jun 12, 2012

Nonleagueherewecome said:
So if his ill-health was brought on by the stress of the job under the circumstances, you would say it's "not effecting him"? You seem to be assuming that he doesn't give a shit. The impression that I and most fans I know is that he gives more of a shit than any manager we've had since Gould! I'm not saying "let him off, he's a nice bloke" like some will read that as: I'm saying that he does care, and you have no evidence to suggest that he doesn't. Would you like an impossible job? Speaking as someone who is bearing the burden of being expected to manage with ever dwindling resources in the Public Sector, I can imagine how he feels, and it is not good, believe you me. It's the feeling of trying to breath whilst someone holds your head under water. But you keep going, you battle on and you do your best if you are passionate about your work.

If we had a load of money would I want Thorn as manager? Hell yes. Did you not see what he did with a few reasonable players that Aidy had heading for relegation season before last? Best football I've seen City play since Snoz. The same squad would have challenged for the play-offs if he'd had them last season, and based on his tenure the previous year, I have read no coherent arguments why we wouldn't have done. If he had just 2m to spend next season I'd expect top two, no problem. That's a darn sight less than Southampton, Huddersfield and Charlton have spent to get out of this division, too.

Don't know where his ill health, or "caring" came into it to be honest, wasn't from any posts that I could see on here?

Doesn't make him a good manager regardless.

Or is it "pretty strong evidence that can't be ignored?"

lordsummerisle · Jun 12, 2012

kduffy said:
A bit rich when you then say the football is of a higher dimension and excitement level that Huckerby, Dublin etc. could possibly aspire to. The first half of last season was the most dull, insipid football ever witnessed by this football club.

But we kept possession in our own half don't you know?(Except for the times that we didn't and lost)

sky blue john · Jun 13, 2012

Why don't we all agree to differ on this subject and get back to the real problems with our club :thinking about:

Or maybe some of you are right and that Thorn is the anti christ manipulating Sisu to do his evil will

Grendel · Jun 13, 2012

sky blue john said:
Why don't we all agree to differ on this subject and get back to the real problems with our club :thinking about:

Or maybe some of you are right and that Thorn is the anti christ manipulating Sisu to do his evil will

Personally I think having the worst manager in our history is a huge problem. Also a change from the ever continuing ownership discussion - something we have no ability whatsoever to influence. If the manager debate is of no interest to you why comment on it?

DazzleTommyDazzle · Jun 13, 2012

kduffy said:
Personally I think having the worst manager in our history is a huge problem. Also a change from the ever continuing ownership discussion - something we have no ability whatsoever to influence. If the manager debate is of no interest to you why comment on it?

Nothing like a close season to polarise opinion

OK then - "worst manager in our history"......

I'm pretty shaky on managers from 1883 to 1961, but look forward to your reasoned debate on their pros and cons.

As for more recent years, off the top of my head I'd look at:

Peter Reid - took over a team that Eric Black had playing really well and had us heading down before he "resigned"
Don Mackay - 2 seasons of just avoiding relegation, then George & John took over and with minimal changes in personnel won the cup
Terry Butcher - took over from John, who'd come as close as we've ever been to establishing us as a "top half team" and quickly reversed the process. Masterstrokes included releasing Cyrille who was "too old", but who scored the goal against us on the last day of the next season that would've sent us down (if not for Notts County), when we were managed by
Don Howe - can you remember the sheer boredom and as for tactical nous - 2-0 down at Villa in a game we had to win, so we bring on an extra defender
Then of course there's AB - brought in many more players than AT could but with our run of 1 win in 18 (I think) had us heading for relegation until we were rescued by some bloke whose name escapes me........

DazzleTommyDazzle · Jun 13, 2012

kduffy said:
If this is the case there is only one natural conclusion. You are far superior than any Board of Directors of a football club who aspire to be the next Charlton, Huddersfield and even those mediocre men from Southampton as all these clubs need to do is remove their manager appoint Thorn and then they are off and away. Oh yes I am sure they have already tried but no doubt he has turned down numerous offers to get a club into the play offs as he cares.

The implication here is that a good manager will be "poached".

You've also stated (frequently) that Thorn is "the worst manager in our history".

It is therefore logical that all his predecessors were better than him.

So from that abundance of riches, how many of our managers in say the last 40 years have been "poached" by other clubs?

dongonzalos · Jun 13, 2012

kduffy said:
This is the question that I would like you to answer Don - regardless of budget, SISU what is the tipping point?

Sorry just saw this, You should have put a thread in my name so you knew I had clocked it, much easier

Have I not answered this in my post about how you are right it is not impossible to judge AT . However you have to adapt your expectations in line with the amount and quality of signings he gets.

I think I have specifically said at which points avoiding relegation would be an achievement, mid table, top six etc...

Or am I misunderstanding your question?

dongonzalos · Jun 13, 2012

Here is what I said earlier

However, thinking about it you are right. You can judge him it is not impossible, however you have to adapt your view of what is deemed successful accordingly.

I felt that saving us from relegation at the the end of the other season was a great success

I felt that nearly saving us from relegation despite what our owners did last season was a good effort (I know this one will be a controversial view)

I think if he gets no new signings now and the players who we think will leave do, then to keep us up would be over achieving

I think if we get 4 experienced signings he should keep us up

I think if he gets 7 reasonable signings if he does not keep us up he has failed, staying up should be expected playoffs would be a very good effort.

I think if he gets 10 reasonable free transfers and loanees if we dont finish in the top six he will have failed

Unlike you I don't feel that I can say what ever budget he gets i.e 20 million for example he will still fail, I am surprised anyone thinks they can confidently say that.

dongonzalos · Jun 13, 2012

Personally I think any manager taking over the current bunch plus the odd couple still to go, that does not get any budget will get relegated. Unless there is a superstar in that youth set up we dont know about yet who will play all season and not get injured. So yes unfortunately in the circumstances that you give AT no budget it will be very hard to make an opinion as I expect us to go down.

Maybe if you hear players current and ex coming out criticizing the manager, and the fans are all against him. Like with Mcliesh and a lot of other managers when they are in the bottom three. If you repeatedly dont see effort on the pitch. Last season I felt I was seeing maximum effort but with injuries and players sales other teams and their benches just seemed better than us. (Just IMO) However I also feel the owners who never accept responsibility for anything have also acknowledged this. That tells me a hell of a lot

If I felt it was that the players were not trying and I was hearing all these discontent rumours from the dressing room that would probably be the tipping point for me, not the what I would call expected relegation

Grendel · Jun 13, 2012

DazzleTommyDazzle said:
The implication here is that a good manager will be "poached".

You've also stated (frequently) that Thorn is "the worst manager in our history".

It is therefore logical that all his predecessors were better than him.

So from that abundance of riches, how many of our managers in say the last 40 years have been "poached" by other clubs?

To be fair it's not really that at all. I was responding to a comment based on a belief that he would get a club promoted if giving £2 million to spend. The logical conclusion would be that other people would surely see this ability and seize the opportunity.
As for the "worst manager" dig it is slightly tongue in cheek but in a way is a direct response to such outlandish and unfounded claims as if we take win ratios as a baramoter he is unless you count some poor chap who managed 11 games in the Great War and won none.

lordsummerisle · Jun 13, 2012

kduffy said:
As for the "worst manager" dig it is slightly tongue in cheek but in a way is a direct response to such outlandish and unfounded claims as if we take win ratios as a baramoter he is unless you count some poor chap who managed 11 games in the Great War and won none.

Ah, the old "20 minuters", lack of fitness always caught them out.

oldskyblue58 · Jun 13, 2012

Thing is if AT gets 6 or 7 players in on freebies, even if Keogh and Crainie go, then if we do not start winning regularly I can see the mood of a significant proportion of the fans turning against AT (SISU or no SISU).

He got the benefit of 10 good games. then he got a season of fan support because of the finances etc where he was allowed a lot of leeway in many eyes ....... next season in the third division, with a tight budget or not, if the team doesn't start winning more and isn't hovering in mid table or above then i think that fans support will wear thin quite quickly.

I do not want him to fail..... i want him to lead our team to some success..... and the first level of success to me will be winning more games home and away..... promotion can come later.......... but I don't have confidence in him doing it..... i hope i am wrong

Astute · Jun 13, 2012

None of us want him to fail(I hope)

Lets forget about spending money on players other than wages. If he manages to bring in players and we are not at least top half after 10 to 15 games then it would be time for him to go. There would be no excuses. He would know what type of player he would need. He should be the one choosing the players as he is the scout. As long as this happened before the last minute there would still be decent players available for free. The problem I do see is the embargo would be lifted right before the start of the season when about all of the decent players have signed for other teams.

Grendel · Jun 13, 2012

I think astute and OSB have it right. If he is allowed to recruit around 7 new faces we have to be top 10. T
I really think the crowd will turn if not we saw it very quickly with strachan. No one was really that anti until the forest and Grimsby debacles.
He is going to need 3 good forwards and if he gets them wrong he will struggle to get results. Personally I would lose Cranie if we replaced him with a forward of similar calibre.

Astute · Jun 13, 2012

kduffy said:
Personally I would lose Cranie if we replaced him with a forward of similar calibre.

Do you mean a striker that can only pass sideways or back? :thinking about:

dongonzalos · Jun 13, 2012

kduffy said:
I think astute and OSB have it right. If he is allowed to recruit around 7 new faces we have to be top 10. T
I really think the crowd will turn if not we saw it very quickly with strachan. No one was really that anti until the forest and Grimsby debacles.
He is going to need 3 good forwards and if he gets them wrong he will struggle to get results. Personally I would lose Cranie if we replaced him with a forward of similar calibre.

Yes I would go with that 7 experienced freebies and mid table to top 10 should be the target. Playoffs would be a fine effort. We would need mother luck injuries wise for that.

Once you are in the 7-10 bracket then you are pushing for the play offs.

When you see the freebies that are out there combined with all the wages we are freeing up and the possibility of nearly 2 million coming in, in transfer fees.

I think SISU have no excuse for letting him make contract offers to 7 freebies and some loanees

The wages offered should be less than the ones who leave so money will still be saved.

Then it will just be a question of will those players accept it also who wil be on that list by the time the embargo is lifted.

What frustrates me about the embargo they must have two budgets writtn down, one if they get the deal and one if they dont.

Cannot they not submit the books based on the cheapest then modify them if they can afford more.

I thibk they can but wont as they think it is currently a weapon

ccfc2011 · Jun 13, 2012

In Andy Thorn we believe.........

Astute · Jun 13, 2012

ccfc2011 said:
In Andy Thorn we believe.........

........in SISU we don't

mexico88 · Jun 13, 2012

ccfc2011 said:
In Andy Thorn we believe.........

....we will not get promoted

Tank Top · Jun 14, 2012

ccfcway said:
Still no bang bang ?

So looks like he will be off if the embargo isn't lifted in next 3 weeks

My View is, we are working, under a self imposed transfer embargo,and it will make no difference, whatsoever, regarding players, even when the official Embargo is lifted, with SIsu falling into arrears with the rent and failing to submit doctored accounts, Does Anyone, in all reason, expect Money, that we Havn't got, is made availiable, for incoming players.
Face the unpalatable truth lads, the writing on the wall is 6ft high,and the aroma of the Coffee is overpowering.

Thorn Starting to get impatient? (6 Viewers)

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