Time for coffee (1 Viewer)

Otis said:

Have people woken up yet I wonder?

A few on here I recall saying before the season that they felt we would go the entire season unbeaten at home. Crazy talk of course. Remember arguing the point at the time, asking as to where on earth the sudden winning attitude would come from after season after season of having a losing team?

I was also told by a few I was 'absolutely mental' for saying we would probably finish 14th and for also saying that we would find this league tough and might struggle.

We have surely all woken up now haven't we?

Could be another long painful season. I would settle for consolidation and a challenge next year.

It's going to take an inspirational manager to turn things round I feel, as many of the players here seem to have a lack of fight in their bellies.

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The players are good enough to make a challenge with proper management and leadership on the pitch. Only have to look at the quality of the goals we have scored to see we have more quality than most sides in the division

my prediction for this season was 12th and no reason to change that. We have a serious losing mentality at the club for many a year and yep its gonna take a strong manager to grab this club by the bollox and sort it out (and a rich arab to take over but thats stating the obvious)

Otis said:

My problem though is, though they look to have a good level of skill and the attributes to do well, they seem to lack spirit, fight and determination.

Where's the will to win? 4 games out of 6 now we've taken the lead and thrown it away.

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otis m8 your spot on we cant keep a lead we cant win a game all down to the players i cant blame anyone else they are on the pitch

Well even given my natural pessimism I had high hopes for this year. Maybe it was denial that CCFC could struggle in the third tier. I also thought that some of our players would find their level here. But in answer to your question then sadly yes I have changed my mind and actually feel our first target is to stabilize and not get anywhere near a relegation fight

Is this a, I was right and told some of you on here but you didn't listen to me, thread ?

Just wondering

Otis said:

Have people woken up yet I wonder?

A few on here I recall saying before the season that they felt we would go the entire season unbeaten at home. Crazy talk of course. Remember arguing the point at the time, asking as to where on earth the sudden winning attitude would come from after season after season of having a losing team?

I was also told by a few I was 'absolutely mental' for saying we would probably finish 14th and for also saying that we would find this league tough and might struggle.

We have surely all woken up now haven't we?

Could be another long painful season. I would settle for consolidation and a challenge next year.

It's going to take an inspirational manager to turn things round I feel, as many of the players here seem to have a lack of fight in their bellies.

This thread isn't a points scoring exercise, I am just wondering if everyone who was really optimistic has now changed their minds or not.

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1) let's wait for the new manager to come in
2) There are 41 games left, a total of 123 points to play for
3) I'm sick of people talking about passion, its nothing to do with passion for the shirt. It is down to tactics or the lack if them, I ask you what was Shaw's game plan today. Gary Smith had one and it worked perfectly

Otis said:

It is to do with passion though to my mind. That is part of it at least!

We are taking the leads in games and then it is quite clear that players are disappearing out of games as the match wears on, Barton, Kilbane and Jennings being the main culprits.

How can it have anything to do with tactics that they going missing for 20-25 mins per game? You think the manager tells them to go missing? Most of the games we have not changed tactics and played the same way, yet players go missing.

Has everything to do with passion, spirit and will to win in my opinion.

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Barton and Kilbane go missing in the second half because of fitness or their lack if it, not because their heart isn't in it

Agreed, passion plays a huge part. The spirit that Stevenage shown yesterday to come back from that stunning strike and not drop their heads was there for them. They kept playing there game and went on to win it and take all 3 points, that's determination and a sign of a passion for me. I know it's early and unless we get a few wins soon to boost these confidence levels of the players, a relegation battle could be upon us.

LJC_CCFC said:

Barton and Kilbane go missing in the second half because of fitness or their lack if it, not because their heart isn't in it

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Barton lost the ball for their first goal and didn't even even make an attempt to try and win it back, he also lost his man in the box for their second goal. This has nothing to do with fitness and is all about determination. Barton is the kind of player who will show the odd nice touch here and there (probably around the half way line) score the odd 20 yarder and the rest of time will not be noticed on the pitch. Its not enough. He scored 2 in 22 for Preston so we can expect maybe 4 goals per season, so he must be in the team for those slide rule passes surely?

Otis said:

Barton and Kilbane go missing in the second half because of fitness or their lack if it, not because their heart isn't in it



What, the Barton who played well for 80 mins against Birmingham and the Kilbane who played for the whole 120 mins including extra time in the same game?

That Barton and Kilbane?


Preston fans already warned us that Barton wasn't up for a fight and lacked spirit. Why would you say otherwise?

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Kilbane can hardly run at the start of a game and barton is coming back from a major leg break and is without a proper pre season, barton is dynamic and creative in the first half of games and disappears in the second. I'll say it again if thorn had started the season by sticking to his principles of passing football, he would have won the first three but for some reason instead of passing out from the back and patiently keeping the ball, he decided to get the players too knock long balls aimlessly again and again in hope of scoring. Shaw has carried this on and blown any chance of getting the job.

I must be the unluckiest guy in the country as quite clearly everytime Barton is doing something dynamic I've got the head in my hands and keep missing it.

I suppose a rolling ball is dynamic so perhaps you are talking about those quality square passes he keeps playing.

dont think there is another club in the country who are so unfit

we started a week early to get fit

whats the betting the new manager will comment on the low fitness levels

I agree with that Barton hasn't suddenly become a bad player. People were raving about him after the Brum game, but suddenly everyone has decided that he's rubbish!

To say they haven't got the heart is wide of the mark for me. Maybe they don't have the fitness or the tactical awareness of what the manager is expecting of them, but no heart? Nah.

The three examples quoted, Jennings missed loads of pre-season and probably isn't up to match fitness, Barton has come back from a serious injury and is in the same boat as Jennings and Kilbane is 35 and has played seven games in three weeks.

We are a League One team with League One players. I think expectation has a lot to do with it. Should be have beaten Stevenage, yes of course we should have and we would of with our team of three years ago, we we are now in their league and shoulder to should with them as that's where we deserve to be.

No player goes out to play badly, no player loses his ability overnight. We need to right man to bring out their qualities.

LJC_CCFC said:

Barton and Kilbane go missing in the second half because of fitness or their lack if it, not because their heart isn't in it

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I think you're right. The players are unfit rather than suddenly going from heroes to zeros.

ccfcway said:

dont think there is another club in the country who are so unfit

we started a week early to get fit

whats the betting the new manager will comment on the low fitness levels

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I think you're right. The players are unfit rather than suddenly going from heroes to zeros.

ccfcway said:

dont think there is another club in the country who are so unfit

we started a week early to get fit

whats the betting the new manager will comment on the low fitness levels

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torchomatic said:

I think you're right. The players are unfit rather than suddenly going from heroes to zeros.

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Its not fitness.

First goal yesterday bearing in mind we are not talking about the 85th minute here.

Barton loses ball, does he run to get it back or keep up with play? No. Wood then dives in like a school boy, does he turn to run for all he's worth to get back? No, he jogs back thinking I hope someone else sorts this out. The guy who scored for Stevenage was brought down in Woods challenge but was about 10 yards clear of Wood when he scored. Its all about effort and we showed none in that first goal and if you look at our play in general you will see the same problems time and time again.

Otis said:

Have people woken up yet I wonder?

A few on here I recall saying before the season that they felt we would go the entire season unbeaten at home. Crazy talk of course. Remember arguing the point at the time, asking as to where on earth the sudden winning attitude would come from after season after season of having a losing team?

I was also told by a few I was 'absolutely mental' for saying we would probably finish 14th and for also saying that we would find this league tough and might struggle.

We have surely all woken up now haven't we?

Could be another long painful season. I would settle for consolidation and a challenge next year.

It's going to take an inspirational manager to turn things round I feel, as many of the players here seem to have a lack of fight in their bellies.

This thread isn't a points scoring exercise, I am just wondering if everyone who was really optimistic has now changed their minds or not.

Click to expand...

still feel with a good manager we will be flying personally.

Was noticeable when Thomas came on how much more mobile he was than everyone else in midfield.

Hope he takes jenning place how offers very little if u ask me.

Otis said:

Have people woken up yet I wonder?

A few on here I recall saying before the season that they felt we would go the entire season unbeaten at home. Crazy talk of course. Remember arguing the point at the time, asking as to where on earth the sudden winning attitude would come from after season after season of having a losing team?

I was also told by a few I was 'absolutely mental' for saying we would probably finish 14th and for also saying that we would find this league tough and might struggle.

We have surely all woken up now haven't we?

Could be another long painful season. I would settle for consolidation and a challenge next year.

It's going to take an inspirational manager to turn things round I feel, as many of the players here seem to have a lack of fight in their bellies.

This thread isn't a points scoring exercise, I am just wondering if everyone who was really optimistic has now changed their minds or not.

Click to expand...

I went for mid-table and administration - haven't changed my mind - although annoyed at myself for getting swept up in the euphoria of all the signings believing we had a chance for promotion

fitness is part of it......... more specifically i would say that the training has not developed endurance or short dynamic pace to the required levels. Perhaps more importantly the mental fitness of the players has not been addressed, good and elite athletes may well have similar levels of fitness but the elite athletes have that mental, strength, focus, desire, attitude (call it what you like) that gets more from their performance.

From comments made by TF i do not think that there was the right ethos at training..... it sounded like the right standards were not set or expected ..... whatever the involvement of RS LC or SG that frame work is set by the manager, he has the final say as to what is and isnt done and coaches work to provide what he requires. It seems to me that for whatever reason the core fitness, pace and confidence of the players simply has not been got right - this is not new to this season, similar comments were made last year where senior players in particular were found wanting.

In terms of what is required from a manager and therefore structure then it is a cross between Boothroyd for fitness, AT for allowing some freedom to express (a much less vital element in league 1) and A N Other who has the ability to inspire motivate and expect high standards, coupled with the drive knowledge and ability to achieve it.

Over to waggott to find the right one i guess...... until then the coffee is going to be pretty bitter

Kilbane was one of our wingers yesterday or left midfield or left diamond. Actually who knows, I doubt our management knows either. Anyway, my point being, hes IN HIS LATE THIRTIES. oooh look how scared right backs are gonna be! Pathetic.

oldskyblue58 said:

fitness is part of it......... more specifically i would say that the training has not developed endurance or short dynamic pace to the required levels. Perhaps more importantly the mental fitness of the players has not been addressed, good and elite athletes may well have similar levels of fitness but the elite athletes have that mental, strength, focus, desire, attitude (call it what you like) that gets more from their performance.

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I think you're over complicating it. We are not talking about fractions here between elite performers we are talking about Wood and Shroot both being on the ground for their first goal. One getting up and running with some intent to join the attack and one jogging back. It looked like Usain Bolt against a fat guy picked out the crowd. Its desire and commitment well above any fitness issues.

I think that if we get the right manager we will see that improvement in desire, in the last 18 months they haven't needed to show what they can do and are coasting.

Black6Osprey said:

I think you're over complicating it. We are not talking about fractions here between elite performers we are talking about Wood and Shroot both being on the ground for their first goal. One getting up and running with some intent to join the attack and one jogging back. It looked like Usain Bolt against a fat guy picked out the crowd. Its desire and commitment well above any fitness issues.

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we are talking about fractions between what should be at least similar level players though arent we. That is why i said that mental fitness is more important. Desire and commitment are all in a players head. Make a player think he can run through brick walls, or his life depended on getting the ball back and they will at least give everything to achieve it even if they dont succeed. Fans can then say Wood or who ever were beaten by a better man on the day ...... right now fans do not see that as true.

You cannot however divorce physical fitness from mental fitness, they are strongly linked together. Physically i do not think the CCFC squad is right but mentally compared to most other teams they are well short of what is required.

Otis said:

Have people woken up yet I wonder?

A few on here I recall saying before the season that they felt we would go the entire season unbeaten at home. Crazy talk of course. Remember arguing the point at the time, asking as to where on earth the sudden winning attitude would come from after season after season of having a losing team?

I was also told by a few I was 'absolutely mental' for saying we would probably finish 14th and for also saying that we would find this league tough and might struggle.

We have surely all woken up now haven't we?

Could be another long painful season. I would settle for consolidation and a challenge next year.

It's going to take an inspirational manager to turn things round I feel, as many of the players here seem to have a lack of fight in their bellies.

This thread isn't a points scoring exercise, I am just wondering if everyone who was really optimistic has now changed their minds or not.

Click to expand...

I've been thinking something similar Otis. I admit there was a moment pre-season when I thought it might just come together this season - though at the same time I also said it might go horribly wrong. (I wasn't sitting on the fence, I was sitting both sides of it simultaneously, which is possible as a Cov fan - it's the difference between flickering hope and bitter experience).

Anyway, I've had the following thoughts. I'm reluctant to offer them up as I'm not sure whether I really believe them or not given the information available to me, but here goes:
1. We're in the lower divisions now. Simple logic says the football is going to be worse. Generally speaking, the players down here can produce moments of real skill, but they do it less consistently. They're also more likely to do something stupid more often. The passing is generally less crisp etc. We've been in the top two divisions for so long, I wonder if too many fans have failed to modify expectations accordingly. As such, are some fans, who are used to seeing better players, jumping on the backs of the current players too quickly? They may not be as skilled as some of the players we've previously seen in sky blue, but if they were playing with confidence would the squad, on average, honestly be worse than most of the others in the same division?

2. If confidence is the biggest problem, then we don't just want someone to come in and just "manage". We need a real leader. We need someone who will grab the club by the balls and drag it as far up as it can go despite the constraints imposed by the owners. We need to unearth the next Jimmy Hill, Brian Clough or someone of that ilk. Someone who thinks "these are the limits, how do I get around them?" Not by cheating or driving us further towards financial oblivion, but by being a cunning and crafty b*****. We don't need someone who will just "manage" our further decline. I had been hoping we'd find a leader from outside the same old recycled names; someone hungry, ambitious and with a bit of experience, and hopefully we still will. Last week I was worried about the thought of Wise coming in because I thought he might be a bit too spiky, a bit too much of a risk. But this club is in trouble and sinking deeper. If we don't recover quickly it could be curtains. I fear this managerial appointment could be make or break. If the board is going to turn to a 'name' then maybe, just maybe, Wise wouldn't be a bad choice. It'd be like putting all you chips down for one last roll of the dice, but at least if we go bust I'd hope under Wise we'd go out all guns blazing... (though whether they blaze internally or externally I don't know!)