Time to man up and take the blame Thorn (1 Viewer)

LeamingtonBootBoy said:

But for his own self-dignity he can resign and show SISU for what they really are.

AT could walk and that would have the greatest effect of all on SISU...more effective than any fan protest.

Why doesn't he do that if his '...hands are tied...'/things are so shit????

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Why should he walk? He has bills to pay like the balance of us. He plied his trade as a player for Wimbledon and Palace on the 80's and 90's at a time when salaries weren't sky-high. Look at our '87 Cup winning team - they're not all rich men, and neither is Thorn.

He took the manager's job driving a Vauxhall Omega. He isn't the Sultan of Brunei you know. Is your moral compass atuned so highly that you would resign your mortgage-paying position to prove a point? And if so, what point for that matter? Try and convince me......

Colonel Mustard said:

No-one is saying that he is the problem. People are saying that they'd like to see as much sweat and potential extracted from the players as possible, for the sake of the badge, their personal expenditure, their pride in the city, etc. To rally behind a manager we acknowledge as being out of his depth is surely cutting off our nose to spite our face.

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We offer conditional support as - right now - we have no better. Sure, criticise him. But all of the vitriol about his being a fat this, a useless that, etc is disgusting (not that I accuse you of those specifics, I hasten to add) and not at all appreciative of the landscape that prevails around him.

SISU, when they won't pay for a scout not fitness coach, aren't going to pay to sack him. Until the day a take-over happens, or SISU stumble upon investment, then he's the only gig in town

Fine, don't walk...I can understand why FOR PERSONAL REASONS he wouldn't.

if that is the case, then he, as manager of the playing side of the business, needs to explain the performances (or lack of) and results (or lack of) on the pitch.

He can't have it all ways, MMM.

LeamingtonBootBoy said:

Fine, don't walk...I can understand why FOR PERSONAL REASONS he wouldn't.

if that is the case, then he, as manager of the playing side of the business, needs to explain the performances (or lack of) and results (or lack of) on the pitch.

He can't have it all ways, MMM.

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But he does so, dear chap. Just because you don't want to hear what he says, or the way he says it doesn't alter the fact that he does try and explain. Do you hear him when he says 'I need more players' or 'when I am allowed to bring in fresh faces'. Do you not understand he's saying that his hands are well and truly tied by the club's management?

And beyond that, I guess he'd grace the listener with the intelligence that, after finishing 18th last term, and with the loss of two genuinely class players - that they would understand why we are where we are.

He may not be able to satisfy you with his explanations or comments, but that's primarily as a function that the overall message he's charged with fronting isn't particularly palatable

As I said in my last post, MMM, if the situation is that bad, he should say 'enough is enough' and walk...

As for explanation, he doesn't offer an explanation...he highlights an issue, but not what he is going to do about it. I'll explain! He says, dear chap, 'I need to bring in fresh faces or my hands are tied'...he does not EXPLAIN what he will do about the situation until this is resolved. I'll explain further......

The fence in my back garden falls down. The missus complains that it needs to be fixed. I say that my hands are tied as I can't afford to get it fixed/or I can't get anyone to fix it. By doing this I am merely highlighting an issue which prevents a solution...I AM NOT EXPLAINING WHAT I WILL DO ABOUT IT!!! I could say, ok, in the meantime, I will fix the fence panel/make a replacement etc....

AT keeps telling us that his hands are tied....no shit Sherlock...but what is he doing to mitigate this issue (which by the way is being experienced by scores of managers up and down the country)????

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:

We offer conditional support as - right now - we have no better.

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I think that is the crux of the matter. Considering that we have spent the majority of the season at the bottom of the table, and are currently 7 points adrift of safety, I'd argue that we could do no worse by bringing in a new manager. It might be a long shot to paddle on a piece of debris, but I'd rather try that than quietly go down with the ship.

Sure, criticise him. But all of the vitriol about his being a fat this, a useless that, etc is disgusting (not that I accuse you of those specifics, I hasten to add) and not at all appreciative of the landscape that prevails around him.

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Thanks, and I agree with that. There should be no place for namecalling, and AT is deserving of sympathy. Equally, though, many supporters of AT should not be using their hatred for SISU to wilfully blind themselves as to AT's shortcomings as a manager.

SISU, when they won't pay for a scout not fitness coach, aren't going to pay to sack him. Until the day a take-over happens, or SISU stumble upon investment, then he's the only gig in town

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I struggle with this one. It is undeniable that SISU are pinching the pennies. And yet they did give AT the money for Cody McDonald, which would suggest they have some interest in improvement. If they intend to leave the club on their own terms, then surely it follows that they understand their leverage reduces in tally with the team's league position, and one of the cheapest and surest ways to effect change is to dispose with a manager (who cannot be on a large salary).

Oh and by the way AT's situation is like my fence lying broken for 6 months and me continually saying to the missus, '....my hands are tied..', '...I'll be at it next week...'...and yet the fence is still broken.

Substitute the above for our results/AT's comments etc....you get the jist, MMM????

Of course we could do worse than change again. Do you know, that since 2000 - the year cited earlier in this thread with regards Leicester's managers - we have had 15 different stints of managers in charge, including Heath twice. What is we change now, then then Hoffman's bid is accepted and he brings his own man in. Three managers in a season? And who is going to come here? We are more poorly funded than Crawley Town. Who would take this impossible poisoned chalice?

LBB: Fences need fence-posts. If I can play with your garden-related metaphor, the fence was wobbly last season. Only just withstood a couple of strong breezes. Westwood and King were our fence-posts. We chopped them up for firewood; and did replace them - yes, but with ones not of the quality of that which was barely strong enough last winter. To make things worse, in order to improve drainage, the good strong clay into which they were previously driven has been removed and replaced with sand. So, we have weak fenceposts, a fence that was wobbly last winter and broken panels; and you're criticising Thorn for using the wrong coloured creosote....

You get the gist this time?

Surely any new owners would have to give Thorn the resources, and let him manage?

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:

Of course we could do worse than change again. Do you know, that since 2000 - the year cited earlier in this thread with regards Leicester's managers - we have had 15 different stints of managers in charge, including Heath twice. What is we change now, then then Hoffman's bid is accepted and he brings his own man in. Three managers in a season? And who is going to come here? We are more poorly funded than Crawley Town. Who would take this impossible poisoned chalice?

LBB: Fences need fence-posts. If I can play with your garden-related metaphor, the fence was wobbly last season. Only just withstood a couple of strong breezes. Westwood and King were our fence-posts. We chopped them up for firewood; and did replace them - yes, but with ones not of the quality of that which was barely strong enough last winter. To make things worse, in order to improve drainage, the good strong clay into which they were previously driven has been removed and replaced with sand. So, we have weak fenceposts, a fence that was wobbly last winter and broken panels; and you're criticising Thorn for using the wrong coloured creosote....

You get the gist this time?

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If the best you can do is to say stick with Thorn because sacking managers doesn't work it's a bit like saying if you get a cold don't bother taking medication as you may get another next week. Come on give some POSITIVE managerial talent that Thorn has displayed this season. I can give you a list as long as you arm as to his shortcomings.
The resigning comment is an interesting one of course as most MANAGERS would go as the merry-go-round gets them employment. He is not exactly an employment prospect is he? You can't identify strengths and he can only blame others. Those others by the way being the only people stupid enough to offer him a contract in the first place.
We knew this season was going to be adverse but all but relegated by now? No. Check the squads of Millwall, Peterborough, Doncaster and convince me of their superiority. Even his one signing is so useless when (half) fit he doesn't play. Think of points dropped where we could have gained with a manager in charge.
If managers make no difference why have one. Why not have a lottery at half time and a fan can have ago. Sound absurd? Yes but no more absurd than saying someone is a good manager when he fails at every turn.
Your analogy doesn't work - Thorn would use the wrong creosote - he wouldn't understand the instructions and would have to ask his mate to open the tin.

LeamingtonBootBoy said:

Done well with motivation???!!!

FFS, what have you been watching this season????

I know most of the 1883 club in the main stand miss the start of the 2nd half, but believe me, we are a 45 minute team...on a good day!!!

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We have been a 45 min team for a long time and under the last 5 or 6 managers. In fact I can't remember when we last played well for 90 mins for a sustained run.

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:

Of course we could do worse than change again.

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The only way we could do worse is if a new manager averaged less than 0.76 points per game this season; over the past decade only four teams who have finished bottom have had a lower point average. Considering that we are as good as relegated, the risk of bringing in a new manager is non-existent anyhow.

Do you know, that since 2000 - the year cited earlier in this thread with regards Leicester's managers - we have had 15 different stints of managers in charge, including Heath twice.

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I actually have no issue with the regular changing of managers. Many will say that a manager requires time to develop a winning squad, but I think you can generally measure a manager's impact fairly quickly. What I am against is utterly mindless sackings when you happen upon a chap that fits the bill (Eric Black, perhaps Roland Nilsson).

Two fairly recent examples: I believe that CCFC were saved an earlier relegation by sacking Iain Dowie when they did - a glance at the downward trajectory and average point total over a number of months painted a bleak picture (though it was obfuscated by the cup run). Meanwhile, the club could possibly have done finer things had Chris Coleman been fired at an earlier point in time; instead we saw a talented squad whittle down their contracts over an uninspiring few years.

What is we change now, then then Hoffman's bid is accepted and he brings his own man in. Three managers in a season? And who is going to come here? We are more poorly funded than Crawley Town. Who would take this impossible poisoned chalice?

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Three managers in a season is fine considering the circumstances. We're rock bottom, expectations are that we'll be relegated, and AT has shown that he is incapable of working on a shoestring budget. If we change managers now then we have nothing to lose, but still something to gain.

As for who would take the post...I am sure there would be plenty of applications. There have been in the past. Coventry City are one of the top 44 posts in the country at present, with a ground and potential to match. Former players wish to get back in the game, earn a salary, have the title of 'manager'. It's a competitive business; you said yourself that AT has no reason to walk away given that it would be a backwards step in his career and a loss of salary. The reverse is true, too.

No 3 managers in a season isn't fine if your then having to waste money paying out compensation, unless we're taken over by an Abramovich, then it would be pocket change.

kduffy said:

If the best you can do is to say stick with Thorn because sacking managers doesn't work it's a bit like saying if you get a cold don't bother taking medication as you may get another next week. Come on give some POSITIVE managerial talent that Thorn has displayed this season. I can give you a list as long as you arm as to his shortcomings.
The resigning comment is an interesting one of course as most MANAGERS would go as the merry-go-round gets them employment. He is not exactly an employment prospect is he? You can't identify strengths and he can only blame others. Those others by the way being the only people stupid enough to offer him a contract in the first place.
We knew this season was going to be adverse but all but relegated by now? No. Check the squads of Millwall, Peterborough, Doncaster and convince me of their superiority. Even his one signing is so useless when (half) fit he doesn't play. Think of points dropped where we could have gained with a manager in charge.
If managers make no difference why have one. Why not have a lottery at half time and a fan can have ago. Sound absurd? Yes but no more absurd than saying someone is a good manager when he fails at every turn.
Your analogy doesn't work - Thorn would use the wrong creosote - he wouldn't understand the instructions and would have to ask his mate to open the tin.

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You confuse me as Thorn apologist- which I am not. I have clearly stated he's not up to the job, but do have the clarity to see that he's a man trying his best in an impossible position; and afford him some grace for at least trying. He's not on the managerial merry-go-round as he's not a manager - again as I clearly articulated earlier. What I do say though, and will say again, is that history may judge Thorn harshly as he never stood a chance. He would have had to get the squad to over-perform simply to stand still. Some managers - even proven ones - can manage this. Most can't.

The air in this club is thick with despair. Our recent history is one of incessant decline, met by knee-jerk change, leading toward even lower depths. The clubs you cite have experienced some good times amixed some bad, and therefore some notion of success remains within their fans and playing staff. Each of the clubs Millwall, Peterborough, Doncaster have experienced promotions in the times when we have only known the dour slog of ever lower mediocrity, and therefore they have some momentum and experience of success from which to draw inspiration. We could debate relative squad strengths ad infinitum, but it's more the kinetics of those clubs which give rise to a different flavour prevailing than our situation. They know there's a better tomorrow. We've become accustomed to expecting the reverse.

And that's why - even if SISU were minded toward change - which I don't believe they are; we won't attract a better manager until true change happens at the club. Until then, and let's hope it's awful soon, Thorn is the man. Limitations and all

stupot07 said:

No 3 managers in a season isn't fine if your then having to waste money paying out compensation, unless we're taken over by an Abramovich, then it would be pocket change.

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It is not a waste of money. It is taking a comparatively small wager (Thorn's compensation) on a potentially bountiful return (money retained by staying in the Championship).

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:

afford him some grace for at least trying.

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I think we've done that over the past 27 games ffs!!

The Thorn debate is certainly a funny one. First, it has to be aknowledged he has one of the hardest jobs in football at the moment. He cannot do an awful lot in terms of transfers as we all know. I remember in the West Ham thread when we were losing, someone suggested Thorn earn his money and make a change, the only option on our bench that day was Jeffers! Shows what little he has to work with. It also has to be said that he has had bad luck with injuries aswell.

Then theres his tactics, Connor Thomas has recently said that he is still trying to adjust to his new role in the diamond. He has played several players out of position to accomodate his formation, which his rarely changes, even when it blatently isnt working. I still don't think he knows himself where to play McSheffrey. Jutkiewicz has look increasingly isolated up front lately.

Also there are his man-management skills, which apear to be majorly lacking. Singleing players out for critisism i.e Bigi vs Derby being one example. The Deegan fitness debacle vs Peterborough. He has his favorites, James McPake for some reason cannot get near the starting XI. He may have lost the dressing room. Also there are his interviews to the radio/tv etc, where he constantly says 'the lads were unlucky', 'we deserved a draw', 'we need to stand up and be counted' etc.

In summary you have to remember to my knowledge, he has very little coaching experience let alone managerial, hence why he is a very limited manager.

James McPake can't get in the side because he as he said himself needs 10-12 games to get match sharp. He played 4 or 5 on the bounce and was at fault for at least 1 goal in each of those games.

Thorns attributes equal, his hands are tied, he has no money. What a cv

AT gets no support from Sisu, he does.
They give him and keep him in a job he is no good at, and has to be the worst manager we have ever had.
Yet he is still here, the way it's going he will be at the end of the season and he still gets support from sections of the supporters.

Does he get such backing and sympathy so the shit that is happening can add weight to getting sisu out (not saying I do not want them gone) because I can not see one reason in wanting to keep him in a job he should not be doing and cannot do.

ICHAN said:

AT gets no support from Sisu, he does.
They give him and keep him in a job he is no good at, and has to be the worst manager we have ever had.
Yet he is still here, the way it's going he will be at the end of the season and he still gets support from sections of the supporters.

Does he get such backing and sympathy so the shit that is happening can add weight to getting sisu out (not saying I do not want them gone) because I can not see one reason in wanting to keep him in a job he should not be doing and cannot do.

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100% right and a great summary. Happy New Year ICHAN!

When we get past 90 posts on any given thread, do we have to start each new one with an opening sentence in the style of Yoda?

Good debate lads!

We must put all the politics and emotions to one side and see the reality here...

The manager and coaching staff are failing us badly with a set of players we all know can do better than where we find ourselves.

As has been said before - we have not been thrashed by anyone which of itself suggest then that better management/coaching probably would get the improvement we crave for.

I wonder...just wonder if Neil Warnock would take the role till the end of the season and have an exciting go at keeping us up? What would it cost SISU? £100 - 150k tops? Could be the best investment they ever make!
Oh and before you dismiss this idea ask yourself this;
Thorn or have a go with Warnock?

The crowds would increase by 20% and it would be fun!

While I support CCFC I will not support a Man who is clearly out f his depth as a manger in this league. Nice bloke and all that blah blah blah, the spotlight has firmly come onto you Andy in your ability to manage.

My advice Andy is to jump rather than be pushed. You will keep your dignity that way and if you have any loyalty to a club that has been paying you a decent wage you will help us fans to force an issue with SISU to sort our crap situation out.

Thanks Andy, enjoy your £250K you have earnt in the last 8 months mate.

What's ironic is that posters are saying that the spotlight is now on AT, etc. However, regardless of what we have (or more aptly) not done this season, we have won 2 off our last 3 league games, scoring 3 and only conceding , so perhaps things are starting to change. Yes,We have lost our last two games but to top 2 teams in the league.

There is clearly nothing ironic, we won at home against Bristol and Brighton, big deal. How are we doing away ? Why cant we hold the lead and finish off opposition. Why do the squad appear to be unfit etc etc We have a tough game on Saturday , which I fully expect us to lose I am afraid even if we take the lead.

The biggest indication of where we are is to take a look at the league position and you can not fail to notice where we are at. It does not matter what the club situation is at whatever team be in the Prem or the conferance.

The team is bottom ...........yes you can blame SISU which I do , but surely the manager has a lot to do with it surely ? So how can it be ironic that given our position we question the manger.

He cannot hide behind SISU forever I am afraid

See this fitness thing gets me.
Ok we have no fitness coach which is a shambles however are AT and Harrison unable to get professional footballers fit by now to last 90 mins, we are not talking the beggining of the season here, or a couple of games in, surely they should be fit by now, even as professionals they should be able to get and keep themselves fit this far into a season?
2 wins in the last couple of home games does not paper over the cracks of having the worst manager in our history, and he is still in a job where as any other manager in our history would have been hounded out of the club ages ago.
Many were saying give him till xmas and judge him.
Well xmas has gone and we have 4 wins 7 draws 14 losses 20 goals for 34 against shocking and just not good enough by no stretch of the imagination, can not see how this is defendable

Thorn has to remember these are KIDS that he is man managing. No point in them being told to man up... there going to make mistakes at such an early age. Thorn plays them even when senior players are avaialble so he needs to wise up!