Trump is my favourite comedian of the year already (3 Viewers)

Mucca Mad Boys · Thursday at 10:46 PM

Sky Blue Pete said:
Is he not just shorting the market for his mates

I’m taken aback by how many free trade purists there are on this thread now.

The USA has been hit hard by globalisation (as have many western countries), many blue collar communities and jobs have been decimated by corporations uprooting to economies with cheaper labour…

Is not worth pondering what if that policy is successful in being manufacturing jobs back to the USA?

It’s worth noting that Trump’s electoral coalition contains low-income blue collar workers who’s traditional loyalties would lay with the Democrats.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Thursday at 10:56 PM

Mucca Mad Boys said:
I’m taken aback by how many free trade purists there are on this thread now.

The USA has been hit hard by globalisation (as have many western countries), many blue collar communities and jobs have been decimated by corporations uprooting to economies with cheaper labour…

Is not worth pondering what if that policy is successful in being manufacturing jobs back to the USA?

It’s worth noting that Trump’s electoral coalition contains low-income blue collar workers who’s traditional loyalties would lay with the Democrats.

If it works fair play to him. Somehow I doubt it though. It's going to massively reduce export demand for US goods due to reciprocal levies.

But the one thing that is certain is that US consumers will be paying more.

Either, a) the manufacturing does return to the US but due to the US workers requiring higher wages the cost of what is being manufactured goes up (not taking into account any parts/materials only available from abroad that many have tariffs on due to the the US stance) increasing prices.

or, b) it is unsuccessful, jobs don't return to the US but consumers have to pay more for the same goods because of the tariffs on them.

And considering one of the things he was supposedly brought in for was because he would bring prices down, that would be an abject failure either way.

SBT · Thursday at 11:00 PM

Mucca Mad Boys said:
The USA has been hit hard by globalisation

In what sense? If you were to make a list of countries “hit hard” by our modern economic system, would you really put the United States near the top?

mmttww · Thursday at 11:01 PM

Mucca Mad Boys said:
...what if that policy is successful in being manufacturing jobs back to the USA?

If it was done in a collaborative way, and it was allied to putting a proper Living Wage into law, supporting unions, improving workers rights etc. you'd have an argument. Nothing about their policies and approach says they've got any interest in making life better for the majority.

Mucca Mad Boys · Thursday at 11:29 PM

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
If it works fair play to him. Somehow I doubt it though. It's going to massively reduce export demand for US goods due to reciprocal levies.

But the one thing that is certain is that US consumers will be paying more.

Either, a) the manufacturing does return to the US but due to the US workers requiring higher wages the cost of what is being manufactured goes up (not taking into account any parts/materials only available from abroad that many have tariffs on due to the the US stance) increasing prices.

or, b) it is unsuccessful, jobs don't return to the US but consumers have to pay more for the same goods because of the tariffs on them.

And considering one of the things he was supposedly brought in for was because he would bring prices down, that would be an abject failure either way.

In the short term, yes it will lead to increased prices. For someone who’s argued so passionately for employment rights in previous conversations (which I respect despite disagreements)… it’s a shame that you give the impression that you’re ok with our clothing and electronic goods (etc) to be produced by workers in foreign countries earning less wages, with less employment rights and in poorer working conditions so we get cheaper goods rings hollow.

After all, the highest tariffs have been levied against the likes of China, India, Vietnam, Thailand, Indonesia, Taiwan and so on…

SBT said:
In what sense? If you were to make a list of countries “hit hard” by our modern economic system, would you really put the United States near the top?

The same process of deindustrialisation that taken place in our country has taken place in major cities all over the USA, with Detroit being the best (or worst) example. It’s not a competition of who has had it worst and leaders in the EU, Canada and UK should be looking to address the problems globalisation has caused to our communities.

The West and this includes the EU, the UK as well as the US has allowed itself to hollowed out its skilled manufacturing jobs and outsourced this to countries who’s labour costs and employment rights are a fraction of what we have. It’s rather bemusing to see such criticism of what is essentially a ‘Blue Labour’ policy position from people who I’d consider economically left wing.

I don’t think a global economy dominated by China is a good thing and it’s time ‘The West’ took actions to correct this.

mmttww said:
If it was done in a collaborative way, and it was allied to putting a proper Living Wage into law, supporting unions, improving workers rights etc. you'd have an argument. Nothing about their policies and approach says they've got any interest in making life better for the majority.

A significant portion of the US trade union movement in the USA has swung behind the Republican Party because they care primarily about getting skilled jobs back that were lost from 1990s.

Skilled manufacturing jobs wages will be much higher paying jobs than minimum wage. Besides, minimum wage and living wages only covers a small % of workers (1-1.3% in the US, 6.5% in the UK). Nonetheless and perhaps quite ironically, JD Vance has supported striking workers and is in favour of increasing the minimum wage - though his record is ‘mixed’.

mmttww · Thursday at 11:40 PM

Mucca Mad Boys said:
A significant portion of the US trade union movement in the USA has swung behind the Republican Party

and I'm sure they're loving the world of DOGE.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Thursday at 11:43 PM

Mucca Mad Boys said:
In the short term, yes it will lead to increased prices. For someone who’s argued so passionately for employment rights in previous conversations (which I respect despite disagreements)… it’s a shame that you give the impression that you’re ok with our clothing and electronic goods (etc) to be produced by workers in foreign countries earning less wages, with less employment rights and in poorer working conditions so we get cheaper goods rings hollow.

After all, the highest tariffs have been levied against the likes of China, India, Vietnam, Thailand, Indonesia, Taiwan and so on…

I don't like the fact that goods are dirt cheap, often because of poor treatment of workers. I'm just recognising that, sadly, it is the case and for too many people buying cheap is a necessity rather than a choice in order to survive.

I would love it if we could have a system whereby everyone was able to afford the real cost of things, allowing fair wages for all. But because we have a deeply unequal system many people do not have the means to do that and so have to rely on cheap things, whether it be clothes, food, electrical items, that are often that cheap because workers aren't being paid fairly. And how do those people then buy the things they need? They have to buy cheap stuff from exploited workers and so it goes on.

But until we have a system that values those that do that sort of work more fairly, or stop overvaluing certain others, then that's not going to happen. And I don't see Trump as being someone who'll be fighting that corner...

And back to the original point, it is Trump who has been going around saying he would bring prices down. I am merely pointing out this policy clearly will not make that happen not matter whether it succeeds in returning US jobs or not.

SBT · Thursday at 11:45 PM

Mucca Mad Boys said:
The same process of deindustrialisation that taken place in our country has taken place in major cities all over the USA, with Detroit being the best (or worst) example. It’s not a competition of who has had it worst and leaders in the EU, Canada and UK should be looking to address the problems globalisation has caused to our communities.

The West and this includes the EU, the UK as well as the US has allowed itself to hollowed out its skilled manufacturing jobs and outsourced this to countries who’s labour costs and employment rights are a fraction of what we have.

Collectively, the United States has enriched itself via globalisation more than any other country on earth. On average its people enjoy both wealth and a standard of living that is enviable to most other western countries, and unimaginable in the rest of the world. The notion that the United States has been “hit hard” by globalisation is laughable.

SkyBlueCharlie9 · 2025-04-04T00:58:34+0100

Sbarcher said:
Get ready. We will become his 53rd State after Canada and Greenland.

Surely Iceland 53rd just before us 54th?

shmmeee · 2025-04-04T07:12:41+0100

Mucca Mad Boys said:
That’s your spin. The US tariffs are half of what is currently imposed by the nations impacted in the case of India, Canada, China, Mexico and the EU.

Hence we get off lightly because our trade tariff regimes are liberalised.

The green subsidies Biden implemented were designed to prise manufacturing jobs from global markets hence the EU followed suit in a pseudo-trade war.

It’s a ChatGPT formula. We “got off” because we don’t have a trade deficit.

shmmeee · 2025-04-04T07:13:11+0100

SBT said:
Collectively, the United States has enriched itself via globalisation more than any other country on earth. On average its people enjoy both wealth and a standard of living that is enviable to most other western countries, and unimaginable in the rest of the world. The notion that the United States has been “hit hard” by globalisation is laughable.

The man’s world view is entirely detached from reality.

shmmeee · 2025-04-04T07:15:04+0100

Another blow for the 4D chess guys

Sick Boy · 2025-04-04T07:16:49+0100

Trump’s ‘idiotic’ and flawed tariff calculations stun economists

‘Willing sycophants’ came up with simplistic formula that has thrown global economy into disarray

www.theguardian.com

Brighton Sky Blue · 2025-04-04T07:54:06+0100

Case in point being that Lesotho is in a trading bloc with South Africa but is being charged a much higher tariff. They’re effing clueless.

Mucca Mad Boys · 2025-04-04T09:02:07+0100

SBT said:
Collectively, the United States has enriched itself via globalisation more than any other country on earth. On average its people enjoy both wealth and a standard of living that is enviable to most other western countries, and unimaginable in the rest of the world. The notion that the United States has been “hit hard” by globalisation is laughable.

With a specific of the blue collar communities across the country and indeed the west as a whole.

Globalisation has enriched the world, but it’s come with its costs. Yes, we’ve got access to cheaper consumer products but we’ve hollowed out our skilled manufacturing jobs and outsourced them to China and other destinations.

We don’t know if this policy will achieve its objectives but if manufacturing did begin to return to the USA, it would demonstrate that globalisation isn’t irreversible.

shmmeee said:
It’s a ChatGPT formula. We “got off” because we don’t have a trade deficit.

This is a sleight of hand because you know full well that there’s a correlation between the trade deficits in those countries and their tariff regimes that can be punitive. Are Chinese manufacturers (to use the biggest example) playing to the same rules as the USA, EU and ourselves? No is the most common answer hence EU anti-dumping on Chinese EVs to protect their own automobile industry.

I do not recall the same outrage when the EU imposed hefty tariffs of 17-35% countervailing duties on large Chinese EV brands such as BYD?

Why is it ok for the EU to impose such tariffs but not the US?

Frankly, if we were being free market purists, we should oppose these duties. The Chinese EV brands are quickly out-competing versus the US and EU automobile manufacturers by making better cars, for cheaper.

EU imposes duties on unfairly subsidised electric vehicles from China while discussions on price undertakings continue

Today the European Commission concluded its anti-subsidy investigation by imposing definitive countervailing duties on imports of battery electric vehicles (BEVs) from China for a period of five years.

ec.europa.eu

Grendel · 2025-04-04T09:15:17+0100

mmttww said:
Fun to see people defend Trump's approach by default while Reeves gets branded as out of her depth or as 'Rachel from Accounts'.

One is using policies based on fag packet maths and another is working closely with an oversight body to put policies together.

You've gotta love that misogyny. To be clear, I'm fuming at most of Labour's decisions and their direction since they took power.

Why is criticising Reeves misogyny?

SBT · 2025-04-04T09:29:12+0100

Mucca Mad Boys said:
Globalisation has enriched the world, but it’s come with its costs. Yes, we’ve got access to cheaper consumer products but we’ve hollowed out our skilled manufacturing jobs and outsourced them to China and other destinations.

We don’t know if this policy will achieve its objectives but if manufacturing did begin to return to the USA, it would demonstrate that globalisation isn’t irreversible.

Many jobs have indeed been outsourced to China etc - meanwhile the products themselves have been sold on to the ever-richer American consumer at inflated prices, with the profits being banked - in dollars! - by American companies and shareholders. And yet you think it’s the United States being “hit hard”?

Why do we need to “demonstrate that globalisation isn’t irreversible”? Where is the evidence that the US economy is able, or even willing to absorb those millions of low-paid, often low-skilled manufacturing jobs?

fernandopartridge · 2025-04-04T09:43:09+0100

Sick Boy said:
$2trillion wiped off Wall Street. It’s going well so far then…more like recession day.

All part of the plan though really isn't it? Drive down share prices to buy even more for him and the wankers he represents

shmmeee · 2025-04-04T09:55:42+0100

fernandopartridge said:
All part of the plan though really isn't it? Drive down share prices to buy even more for him and the wankers he represents

Money you lose is money someone else gains.

Grendel · 2025-04-04T10:12:45+0100

Anyone interested?

'I'm The First Buyer': Donald Trump Unveils $5 Million 'Gold Card' | WATCH

While announcing the scheme in February this year, Donald Trump stated that there would be no annual cap on the number of Gold Cards issued.

www.ndtvprofit.com

Brighton Sky Blue · 2025-04-04T10:16:04+0100

Grendel said:
Anyone interested?

'I'm The First Buyer': Donald Trump Unveils $5 Million 'Gold Card' | WATCH

While announcing the scheme in February this year, Donald Trump stated that there would be no annual cap on the number of Gold Cards issued.

www.ndtvprofit.com

Would be interesting to see the programme get abused by foreign powers

fernandopartridge · 2025-04-04T10:22:10+0100

shmmeee said:
Another blow for the 4D chess guys

View attachment 42345

Techbros do economics (fundamentally a discipline of sentience not mathematics)

Mucca Mad Boys · 2025-04-04T10:29:37+0100

SBT said:
Many jobs have indeed been outsourced to China etc - meanwhile the products themselves have been sold on to the ever-richer American consumer at inflated prices, with the profits being banked - in dollars! - by American companies and shareholders. And yet you think it’s the United States being “hit hard”?

Why do we need to “demonstrate that globalisation isn’t irreversible”? Where is the evidence that the US economy is able, or even willing to absorb those millions of low-paid, often low-skilled manufacturing jobs?

A lot of mental gymnastics here.

Stop muddling the benefits of increased profits from International corporations benefitting from globalisation from the social impact on blue collar communities. The people in the ‘rust belt’ states do not feel enriched by globalisation.

Ironically, Bernie Sanders called for tariffs back in 2008 for the same reasons Trump is doing so. It’s quite funny seeing left-leaning posters denounce protectionist trade policies that are often more associated with the left.

Could you clarify your thoughts here please… Are you happy with the state of deindustrialisation across the UK, EU and the USA? Should leaders in these countries just do nothing about it?

mmttww · 2025-04-04T10:32:00+0100

Grendel said:
Why is criticising Reeves misogyny?

It's not in isolation, but it sure looks like it when she's subject to the scrutiny she is vs. Trump et al. making sh*t up as they go while men on here scramble to defend each mad thing they come out with.

Grendel · 2025-04-04T10:34:14+0100

mmttww said:
It's not in isolation, but it sure looks like it when she's subject to the scrutiny she is vs. Trump et al. making sh*t up as they go while men on her scramble to defend it.

She is under scrutiny as she is in charge of our economic outlook and she is pitifully out of her depth.

If she wasn't under scrutiny there would be something wrong.

Mucca Mad Boys · 2025-04-04T10:38:50+0100

SBT said:
Many jobs have indeed been outsourced to China etc - meanwhile the products themselves have been sold on to the ever-richer American consumer at inflated prices, with the profits being banked - in dollars! - by American companies and shareholders. And yet you think it’s the United States being “hit hard”?

Why do we need to “demonstrate that globalisation isn’t irreversible”? Where is the evidence that the US economy is able, or even willing to absorb those millions of low-paid, often low-skilled manufacturing jobs?

A lot of mental gymnastics here.

Stop muddling the benefits of increased profits from International corporations benefitting from globalisation from the social impact on blue collar communities. The people in the ‘rust belt’ states do not feel enriched by globalisation.

Ironically, Bernie Sanders called for tariffs back in 2008 for the same reasons Trump is doing so. It’s quite funny seeing left-leaning posters denounce protectionist trade policies that are often more associated with the left.

Could you clarify your thoughts here please… Are you happy with the state of deindustrialisation across the UK, EU and the USA? Should leaders in these countries just do nothing about it?!

fernandopartridge · 2025-04-04T11:06:59+0100

Mucca Mad Boys said:
A lot of mental gymnastics here.

Stop muddling the benefits of increased profits from International corporations benefitting from globalisation from the social impact on blue collar communities. The people in the ‘rust belt’ states do not feel enriched by globalisation.

Ironically, Bernie Sanders called for tariffs back in 2008 for the same reasons Trump is doing so. It’s quite funny seeing left-leaning posters denounce protectionist trade policies that are often more associated with the left.

Could you clarify your thoughts here please… Are you happy with the state of deindustrialisation across the UK, EU and the USA? Should leaders in these countries just do nothing about it?

I look forward to the Trump techbros bringing iphone manufacturing back to the USA shortly

Mucca Mad Boys · 2025-04-04T11:10:04+0100

fernandopartridge said:
I look forward to the Trump techbros bringing iphone manufacturing back to the USA shortly

Sarcasm and pot shots is all you offer… I’m sure you’d be saying the same things had Bernie Sanders implemented similar policies.

shmmeee · 2025-04-04T11:14:48+0100

Has Bernie said anything about the tariffs? His kind of policy normally.

SkyBlueCharlie9 · 2025-04-04T11:19:09+0100

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
What do you mean? We have 10%, the EU 20%. This is directly because of us leaving the EU.

Whatever you think of Brexit, this is a benefit of it. There are some attitudes popping up all over the internet today that just go to show that some people genuinely still don't want us to do well because they lost the vote back in 2016.

America is a mess right now, but this is an opportunity for us to take. It isn't time for small-mindedness.

Who gets the credit for this masterstroke Keir or Trump ?

SBT · 2025-04-04T11:21:45+0100

Mucca Mad Boys said:
A lot of mental gymnastics here.

Stop muddling the benefits of increased profits from International corporations benefitting from globalisation from the social impact on blue collar communities. The people in the ‘rust belt’ states do not feel enriched by globalisation.

I’m not muddling them, I’m taking them in aggregate. Yes, there are manufacturing communities that have been hollowed out; there are also hundreds of millions of American consumers living to a standard that is the envy of most western countries, let alone the places where the manufacturing jobs have gone.

Nike employs roughly 450,000 factory workers in Vietnam to make shoes and other clothes very cheaply, so they can be imported back into the US and sold for a huge profit. Who does it benefit if Nike are throttled into moving those jobs to America? Not Nike (their costs will skyrocket); not the American consumer (their Nikes will cost more as a result); and not the Vietnamese workers (they all lose their jobs and their economy craters). The only people who feasibly benefit are the hypothetical 450,000 American factory workers who are ready and waiting to stitch sneakers which are more expensive and less popular than before. And if I can’t explain it well enough, maybe Chappelle can:

David O'Day · 2025-04-04T11:23:47+0100

Mucca Mad Boys said:
Sarcasm and pot shots is all you offer… I’m sure you’d be saying the same things had Bernie Sanders implemented similar policies.

you've been rewriting war and peace and still haven't managed to be right

Mucca Mad Boys · 2025-04-04T11:25:48+0100

shmmeee said:
Has Bernie said anything about the tariffs? His kind of policy normally.

Is generally in favour of imposing tariffs on most global markets barring Canada and the EU. There’s a clip of Nancy Pelosi from 1996 arguing for retaliatory tariffs against China resurfacing on social media too.

Sanders Statement on Trump Tariffs » Senator Bernie Sanders

LOS ANGELES, June 1 – U.S. Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) issued the following statement after President Donald Trump imposed steep tariffs on Mexico, the European Union and Canada: “We need a trade policy that is fair to American workers, not just large multi-national corporations. We need to stop...

www.sanders.senate.gov

Ironically, it’s the free marketeer wings of the Republican and Democrat parties that were massively in favour of neoliberal trade policies that allowed for corporations to leave the USA to source their manufacturing jobs elsewhere.

Mucca Mad Boys · 2025-04-04T11:26:21+0100

David O'Day said:
you've been rewriting war and peace and still haven't managed to be right

Kudos, that made me laugh!

fernandopartridge · 2025-04-04T11:29:53+0100

Mucca Mad Boys said:
Sarcasm and pot shots is all you offer… I’m sure you’d be saying the same things had Bernie Sanders implemented similar policies.

You are the one trying to make the case that the tariffs are about reshoring the US manufacturing base. I'm just speculating about whether it will really happen or not.

Trump is my favourite comedian of the year already (3 Viewers)

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