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Wasps breach agreement with bondholders (2 Viewers)

  • Thread starter stupot07
  • Start date Nov 8, 2016
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oldfiver

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 9, 2016
  • #36
Nick said:

It reads to me that further independent appraisals aren't the same as the original one?

Why set a deadline for one they had done already?

Can anybody clear that bit up?
Click to expand...

Simon is wrong - the extract is from the prospectus
the first such valuation date to be no later than 30 June 2016.
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Nov 9, 2016
  • #37
oldfiver said:
Simon is wrong - the extract is from the prospectus
the first such valuation date to be no later than 30 June 2016.
Click to expand...

Have asked him to confirm.
 
O

oldfiver

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 9, 2016
  • #38
oldskyblue58 said:
Failing to meet the covenants could be serious Nick.

The bondholders make their own individual minds up as to value of the bonds they hold and sell or retain accordingly

I expected a valuation 30-06-2016 it seems that from my last post it might not be the case
Click to expand...

Nope:
the first such valuation date to be no later than 30 June 2016.
 
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oldfiver

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 9, 2016
  • #39
Nick said:
Have asked him to confirm.
Click to expand...

Is it in his book?
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 9, 2016
  • #40
If I read it right.
If Wasps fail then CCFC couldn't run it either.
In that respect CCFC future would be tied in with Wasps surviving.
Even more important that we bite the bullet and try and get a decent long term deal with Wasps.
 
O

oldfiver

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 9, 2016
  • #41
italiahorse said:
If I read it right.
If Wasps fail then CCFC couldn't run it either.
In that respect CCFC future would be tied in with Wasps surviving.
Even more important that we bite the bullet and try and get a decent long term deal with Wasps.
Click to expand...

Sure you mean WASPS need to do a long term deal with CCFC?
Who hold the biggest financial risks - Bond holders or SISU?
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Nov 9, 2016
  • #42
Simon's reply about it:


Not 100% what it means.

Reads to me he thinks nobody has seen it so dont need to bother.
 

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 9, 2016
  • #43
oldfiver said:
Sure you mean WASPS need to do a long term deal with CCFC?
Who hold the biggest financial risks - Bond holders or SISU?
Click to expand...
Still got two turkeys.
 
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oldfiver

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 9, 2016
  • #44
Nick said:
Simon's reply about it:


Not 100% what it means.

Reads to me he thinks nobody has seen it so dont need to bother.
Click to expand...

So it is in his book?
 
Reactions: torchomatic and Terry Gibson's perm
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oldfiver

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 9, 2016
  • #45
Captain Dart said:
Still got two turkeys.
Click to expand...

Christmas looms
 
Reactions: Captain Dart

stupot07

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 9, 2016
  • #46
italiahorse said:
If I read it right.
If Wasps fail then CCFC couldn't run it either.
Click to expand...

How do you work that out? The reason wasps are struggling is because they borrowed beyond their means and waht they needed. Pretty sure that wasps are paying more in interest than the former ACL were paying for interest and repayment on their loan. In sure they wouldn't be struggling to the extent they seem to be now had they had not done the bonds and just carried on with the existing loan. But Richardson wouldnt be £10m better off had he done that.

italiahorse said:
In that respect CCFC future would be tied in with Wasps surviving.
Even more important that we bite the bullet and try and get a decent long term deal with Wasps.
Click to expand...

I don't think so. If it was tied in to wasps survival, they should drop the 'legal noise' pretence and get around the table.

If anything I would say this is a good reason for ccfc not to be tied in long term, keep the uncertainty going and not give wasps security. I doubt they will give us ang better deal long term as they would short term.

Worroed about your bonds are you?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 
Reactions: singers_pore
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oldfiver

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 9, 2016
  • #47
If anything I would say this is a good reason for ccfc not to be tied in long term, keep the uncertainty going and not give wasps security. I doubt they will give us ang better deal long term as they would short term.

Worroed about your bonds are you?


Well 45200 were traded today by someone[/QUOTE]
 

Terry Gibson's perm

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 9, 2016
  • #48
oldfiver said:
So it is in his book?
Click to expand...

Very good enjoyed that:woot:
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Nov 9, 2016
  • #49
oldfiver said:
Well 45200 were traded today by someone
Click to expand...

what's that in money terms?
 
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oldfiver

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 9, 2016
  • #50
Nick said:
what's that in money terms?
Click to expand...
Time/Date Price Volume Trade value
14:25:56 107.30 45,200 48,499.60
 

Terry Gibson's perm

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 9, 2016
  • #51
Nick said:
Simon's reply about it:


Not 100% what it means.

Reads to me he thinks nobody has seen it so dont need to bother.
Click to expand...


No need to worry social media will get the good news out there.

Simons response was not going to upset one of our biggest advertisers.
 
Reactions: duffer and Ian1779

Nick

Administrator
  • Nov 9, 2016
  • #52
Ah, 48 and a half grands worth.
 

Terry Gibson's perm

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 9, 2016
  • #53
Nick said:
Ah, 48 and a half grands worth.
Click to expand...

Can't be italia then unless he has sold a small part of his investment :cigar:
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Nov 9, 2016
  • #54
Terry Gibson's perm said:
Can't be italia then unless he has sold a small part of his investment :cigar:
Click to expand...

Or he found some change under his sofa and bought them?
 
Reactions: Terry Gibson's perm

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 9, 2016
  • #55
Nick said:
Ah, 48 and a half grands worth.
Click to expand...
Someone has made £6000 (including 1 years interest) if they were bought at issue price.
So when they fall to 95p will the value of the assets only have to be 1.4x£35Mx0.95 ~= £46.5M
 

Ian1779

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 9, 2016
  • #56
Nick said:
Or he found some change under his sofa and bought them?
Click to expand...

Maybe each free Wasps ticket has a cash value of 0.001p and he's managed to get a few of the ones lying around together to trade in.....
 
Reactions: torchomatic and duffer
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oldfiver

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 9, 2016
  • #57
Captain Dart said:
Someone has made £6000 (including 1 years interest) if they were bought at issue price.
So when they fall to 95p will the value of the assets only have to be 1.4x£35Mx0.95 ~= £46.5M
Click to expand...

The price will only fall if they holders feel at risk with the asset and not being repaid at 100.00. But unless WASPS planning to sell the Arena for £34m+ they must be relying on a re-issue backed by good results ( and the ability to pay )
The other factor is interest rates - if they bought at 100 the yield is 6.5%. At 95 they would get 100/95 x 6.5 = 6.8%. But the person who bought today @107 will yield 6.0%
So the seller either needed to get out , decided to cut and run or found a better investment
 

Terry Gibson's perm

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 9, 2016
  • #58
Ian1779 said:
Maybe each free Wasps ticket has a cash value of 0.001p and he's managed to get a few of the ones lying around together to trade in.....
Click to expand...

That's about the value of any of their tickets you would have to pay me to watch all that hugging they do
 
Reactions: Ian1779

singers_pore

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 10, 2016
  • #59
Captain Dart said:
And in English?
Click to expand...
Wasps are fucked in my humble opinion.
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • Nov 10, 2016
  • #60
Of course why the stadium company could succeed in CCFC hands but not Wasps could also be due to the fact that ACL was overpriced when sold, so picking it up at a more realistic price would give more disposable cash to play with.

Maybe Fisher was right that ACL was overpriced...

Plus Wasps as a club are gambling on quick growth whereas a strategy of slow, incremental growth could well be the way forward,
 

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 10, 2016
  • #61
Deleted member 5849 said:
Of course why the stadium company could succeed in CCFC hands but not Wasps could also be due to the fact that ACL was overpriced when sold, so picking it up at a more realistic price would give more disposable cash to play with.

Maybe Fisher was right that ACL was overpriced...

Plus Wasps as a club are gambling on quick growth whereas a strategy of slow, incremental growth could well be the way forward,
Click to expand...

There is always a first time for anything.
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • Nov 10, 2016
  • #62
Captain Dart said:
There is always a first time for anything.
Click to expand...

He often has some very valid points, it's just... unfortunate they're shrouded amidst the bullshit.

I dunno, I may be against the grain but, if he was working for more... affable owners, I'd be reasonably comfortable with him as chairman.

(And yes, I do appreciate these are the same ifs that say if Richardson hadn't buddied up with Robinson, all may have been well!)
 
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oldfiver

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 10, 2016
  • #63
Captain Dart said:
Someone has made £6000 (including 1 years interest) if they were bought at issue price.
So when they fall to 95p will the value of the assets only have to be 1.4x£35Mx0.95 ~= £46.5M
Click to expand...

I have checked this out - the 107 price will include the accrued interest so it is not the Bond price plus £6000
 

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 10, 2016
  • #64
oldfiver said:
I have checked this out - the 107 price will include the accrued interest so it is not the Bond price plus £6000
Click to expand...
So they are accumulating units and should bump up every time Wasps pays out?
 
O

oldfiver

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 10, 2016
  • #65
Captain Dart said:
So they are accumulating units and should bump up every time Wasps pays out?
Click to expand...

This is not my territory but:
The price reflects the value of the bond and the current and future income from it
So the bond price does include the current accrued interim coupon. By definition as each period passes the value should get nearer to 100 - because the future income is getting less
The price also reflects the confidence in the bond holder they will get a full pay out on redemption

We need Italia's broker to clarify more
 
Reactions: Captain Dart
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oldfiver

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 10, 2016
  • #66
Time/Date Price Volume Trade Value Type
09:17:39 10-Nov-2016 104.00 9,500 9,880.00 Ordinary trade
09:17:25 10-Nov-2016 105.50 25,000 26,375.00 Automatic Trade
09:17:25 10-Nov-2016 105.65 25,000 26,412.50 Automatic Trade
09:12:54 10-Nov-2016 106.50 25,000 26,625.00 Automatic Trade
08:31:03 10-Nov-2016 107.00 1,800 1,926.00 Ordinary trade
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Nov 10, 2016
  • #67
Automatic using some sort of bot / algorithm?
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
  • Nov 10, 2016
  • #68
Few facts from the accounts of Wasps Holdings & ACL

Debt levels of combined Wasps and ACL (ignoring cash deposits)
2014 £36,377,068
2015 £37,290,846
2016 £43,641,600
increase in combined debt since 2014 £7,264,532.

Interest paid by combined Wasps & ACL
2014 £967,487 (pre Wasps purchase)
2015 £1,514,107
2016 £2,276,735
Increase in combined annual interest burden compared to 2014 £1,309,248

Capital expenditure combined Wasps & ACL
2014 £ 214,636 (pre purchase of Ricoh)
2015 £ 2,127,676 (including purchase of 250 year lease £1,048,000)
2016 £ 5,821,451
Combined spending on fixed assets at the Ricoh £7,949,127 for 2015 & 2016

Bond price down to £104 today and the next interest is due for payment tomorrow
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 10, 2016
  • #69
Fisher may be proved right in the end. I don't think that ACL in itself is a failure as a company.

Its biggest problem since 2005 has been the Yorkshire Bank debt forced on it by the Council which despite refinancing has never gone away. Wasps have just refinanced it again through the bond issue.
 
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oldfiver

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 10, 2016
  • #70
Nick said:
Automatic using some sort of bot / algorithm?
Click to expand...

Could be set to sell after 1 year - minimum risk take
 
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