Wasps breach agreement with bondholders (28 Viewers)

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 10, 2016

fernandopartridge said:
Fisher may be proved right in the end. I don't think that ACL in itself is a failure as a company.

Its biggest problem since 2005 has been the Yorkshire Bank debt forced on it by the Council which despite refinancing has never gone away. Wasps have just refinanced it again through the bond issue.

I also think it spread itself too thinly as well - beyond CCFC (and the ground did its best to keep *that* hidden too!) it was hard to know what the stadium was actually *for*.

Wasps do seem to be trying to tie in a few themes to make that easier for the site to forge some kind of identity. The obvious ones are sporting and yes, I know it had sporting events before, but they always seemed slightly half-baked.

As an aside that's often the issue in the public sector, not that the ideas aren't right, but there's little release of risk capital to try and make them work... or not.

Wasps certainly seem to be trying to compensate for that earlier lack of risk!

oldskyblue58 · Nov 10, 2016

Think you have to be careful focussing on the bond price especially over a few days. There has clearly been a dip since the release of the figures but there was last year too when the price went below £100 for a couple of days, then showed a steady trend of increase for the following year reaching £111 at on point.

Some investors will have set prices that will see an automatic sale if the bond price hits a certain figure. To be able to sell, and with a premium, of course means that there are people looking to buy

oldfiver · Nov 10, 2016

fernandopartridge said:
Fisher may be proved right in the end. I don't think that ACL in itself is a failure as a company.

Its biggest problem since 2005 has been the Yorkshire Bank debt forced on it by the Council which despite refinancing has never gone away. Wasps have just refinanced it again through the bond issue.

The other problem is the ageing building and M&E - Strutt & Parker assumed everything in 100% working order etc but some of it must need upgrading/renovating after thi stime

oldskyblue58 · Nov 10, 2016

maybe has something to do with the £6.9m capital expenditure (exc lease) in 2015 & 2016, or that they spent £2m on repairs & maintenance in those two years, or have Ericson upgrading the exhibition hall and stadium media infra structure?

fernandopartridge · Nov 10, 2016

oldskyblue58 said:
maybe has something to do with the £6.9m capital expenditure (exc lease) in 2015 & 2016, or that they spent £2m on repairs & maintenance in those two years, or have Ericson upgrading the exhibition hall and stadium media infra structure?

Some of the capital investment would have been on the replacement pitch. There was also investment in the hotel. I am not sure what the arrangements with Hilton are at the Arena? Surely they should be investing in hotel rooms that they are selling? Or are ACL selling rooms just under the Hilton brand?

Nick · Nov 10, 2016

fernandopartridge said:
Some of the capital investment would have been on the replacement pitch. There was also investment in the hotel. I am not sure what the arrangements with Hilton are at the Arena? Surely they should be investing in hotel rooms that they are selling? Or are ACL selling rooms just under the Hilton brand?

They were hiring for a job, but it was Wasps / Ricoh employing for it.

I reckon it might be just a franchise.

What happened to the contract that was already there when they came in? That soon went!

Captain Dart · Nov 10, 2016

fernandopartridge said:
Some of the capital investment would have been on the replacement pitch. There was also investment in the hotel. I am not sure what the arrangements with Hilton are at the Arena? Surely they should be investing in hotel rooms that they are selling? Or are ACL selling rooms just under the Hilton brand?

Franchise operation isn't it, I thought Hilton paid for the refit and run it under license. I think Wasps know what they'll get & by and large they won't get any more unless there is some bonus based on good profits in the contract with Hilton.
http://www.wasps.co.uk/news/article/2015/04/08/planned-improvements-at-the-ricoh-arena
http://www.hospitalityandcateringne...ee-hilton-ricoh-arena-sees-sharp-rise-income/

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 10, 2016

Captain Dart said:
Franchise operation isn't it

Hotel or club?

Bennets Afro · Nov 10, 2016

Anyone up for the theory of Richardson wanting both Wasps and CCFC under one banner and sell the whole lot on.

Wasps are owned by a hedge fund and would they be in it for the long haul?

With wasps figures not looking that great would they be lookingto make a quick return like SISU hoped to fluke? Could explain the media onslaught just lately to remove SISU from the club

Philosoraptor · Nov 10, 2016

Makes you think though...

There could be more risk for the people taking out a one year term in the 4th and 5th years. Would they get their money back in the 5th year or even the fourth?

I have no clue of finances.

How are they paying for this, is it £7 million training ground?

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 10, 2016

Bennets Afro said:
Could explain the media onslaught just lately to remove SISU from the club

It does look like it comes down to the more prosaic... potential stadium sponsors want to know what they're signing up to ref: legals and outcomes, Wasps want/need a potential stadium sponsor.

Actually, potentially (three time's a charm), looks like CCFC could be in a stronger negotiating position than it seems... albeit high risk.

What else, of course!

Nick · Nov 10, 2016

Bennets Afro said:
Anyone up for the theory of Richardson wanting both Wasps and CCFC under one banner and sell the whole lot on.

Wasps are owned by a hedge fund and would they be in it for the long haul?

With wasps figures not looking that great would they be lookingto make a quick return like SISU hoped to fluke? Could explain the media onslaught just lately to remove SISU from the club

I am not 100% about Wasps taking them on, maybe somebody they know they feel they can negotiate / pressure easily

Bennets Afro · Nov 10, 2016

Nick said:
I am not 100% about Wasps taking them on, maybe somebody they know they feel they can negotiate / pressure easily

Someone they can bully into a deal they want you mean???

Nick · Nov 10, 2016

Bennets Afro said:
Someone they can bully into a deal they want you mean???

Pretty much.

fernandopartridge · Nov 10, 2016

Tell you what, it's only £57

Captain Dart said:
Franchise operation isn't it, I thought Hilton paid for the refit and run it under license. I think Wasps know what they'll get & by and large they won't get any more unless there is some bonus based on good profits in the contract with Hilton.
http://www.wasps.co.uk/news/article/2015/04/08/planned-improvements-at-the-ricoh-arena
http://www.hospitalityandcateringne...ee-hilton-ricoh-arena-sees-sharp-rise-income/

Cheers, I had a quick look on the Hilton website. You can get a room for £57 a night, a bit of a bargain imo. £85 per night with breakfast. I know a few people who regularly stay in Cov and struggle to find rooms in the central hotels.

oldskyblue58 · Nov 10, 2016

fernandopartridge said:
Some of the capital investment would have been on the replacement pitch. There was also investment in the hotel. I am not sure what the arrangements with Hilton are at the Arena? Surely they should be investing in hotel rooms that they are selling? Or are ACL selling rooms just under the Hilton brand?

Think that would certainly cover a lot of the expenditure fp.

From memory wasn't around £1m spent on the pitch and £4m on the hotel upgrade? That would still leave around £2m spent on other things plus the annual repairs spend. Some of the expenditure overlaps doesn't it too, the refurb of the Atrium outlets etc for example or the hotel rooms that double as match day boxes. The electrics/media stuff is being up graded in the exhibition hall and will extend to rest of the stadium. So what else is in such dire need other than a lick of paint maybe?

fernandopartridge · Nov 10, 2016

oldskyblue58 said:
Think that would certainly cover a lot of the expenditure fp.

From memory wasn't around £1m spent on the pitch and £4m on the hotel upgrade? That would still leave around £2m spent on other things plus the annual repairs spend. Some of the expenditure overlaps doesn't it too, the refurb of the Atrium outlets etc for example or the hotel rooms that double as match day boxes. The electrics/media stuff is being up graded in the exhibition hall and will extend to rest of the stadium. So what else is in such dire need other than a lick of paint maybe?

Nothing obvious to me, although if they want to raise their game the general landscaping and appearance of the entire site needs to be looked at.

Captain Dart · Nov 10, 2016

fernandopartridge said:
Nothing obvious to me, although if they want to raise their game the general landscaping and appearance of the entire site needs to be looked at.

Well there is the flags and that (annoying) advertising screen, was the screen a Wasps thingy or did ACL stick it up. :cigar:

Nick · Nov 10, 2016

That was before Wasps wasn't it?

chiefdave · Nov 10, 2016

Captain Dart said:
Well there is the flags and that (annoying) advertising screen, was the screen a Wasps thingy or did ACL stick it up.

The tripod thing at the front? That's always been there. The stuff round by the JH statue is new but that can't have cost much, none of it is electronic.

Apparently there was supposed to be a second scoreboard going in and the original one being replaced as well in time for this season. Was told it had been ordered but then cancelled and they're now going for a cheaper option.

oldfiver · Nov 10, 2016

fernandopartridge said:
Tell you what, it's only £57

Cheers, I had a quick look on the Hilton website. You can get a room for £57 a night, a bit of a bargain imo. £85 per night with breakfast. I know a few people who regularly stay in Cov and struggle to find rooms in the central hotels.

£28 for breakfast ? Must be good
I do not understand why but apparently Coventry has a shortage of hotel rooms and is regularly sold out

fernandopartridge · Nov 10, 2016

chiefdave said:
The tripod thing at the front? That's always been there. The stuff round by the JH statue is new but that can't have cost much, none of it is electronic.

Apparently there was supposed to be a second scoreboard going in and the original one being replaced as well in time for this season. Was told it had been ordered but then cancelled and they're now going for a cheaper option.

Italia has just agreed a lucrative new contract to take on the role:

oldfiver · Nov 10, 2016

chiefdave said:
The tripod thing at the front? That's always been there. The stuff round by the JH statue is new but that can't have cost much, none of it is electronic.

Apparently there was supposed to be a second scoreboard going in and the original one being replaced as well in time for this season. Was told it had been ordered but then cancelled and they're now going for a cheaper option.

Is that because they tried to charge CCFC for using the scoreboard and were told it is already in the rental agreement?

oldfiver · Nov 10, 2016

fernandopartridge said:
Some of the capital investment would have been on the replacement pitch. There was also investment in the hotel. I am not sure what the arrangements with Hilton are at the Arena? Surely they should be investing in hotel rooms that they are selling? Or are ACL selling rooms just under the Hilton brand?

It is not a true "Hilton" it is Doubletree - a franchise
https://www.franchisehelp.com/franchises/doubletree/

wingy · Nov 10, 2016

oldfiver said:
Is that because they tried to charge CCFC for using the scoreboard and were told it is already in the rental agreement?

Didn't ACL get another £2M off us for the fit out of the stadium?
I'd like to see what that covered?
If it was any hardware such as Screen or seats we should be compensated.

Nick · Nov 10, 2016

wingy said:
Didn't ACL get another £2M off us for the fit out of the stadium?
I'd like to see what that covered?
If it was any hardware such as Screen or seats we should be compensated.

When was that?

wingy · Nov 10, 2016

Nick said:
When was that?

Near the end of the construction phase
I don't know what it covered but came as as a surprise I think
Some sort of oversight by the Club,
Graham Hover possibly.

chiefdave · Nov 10, 2016

wingy said:
Didn't ACL get another £2M off us for the fit out of the stadium?
I'd like to see what that covered?
If it was any hardware such as Screen or seats we should be compensated.

The fit out overspend was £2.6m. There were things that just were forgotten on the original plans such as the scoreboard, phone system, gym. ACL put £1.1m towards those costs. There is a payment from CCFC directly to ACL of £1.8m but I don't think it was specified what it was to cover.

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 10, 2016

wingy said:
Graham Hover

Now there's yet another story that it'd be great to see come out in the wash.

wingy · Nov 10, 2016

chiefdave said:
The fit out overspend was £2.6m. There were things that just were forgotten on the original plans such as the scoreboard, phone system, gym. ACL put £1.1m towards those costs. There is a payment from CCFC directly to ACL of £1.8m but I don't think it was specified what it was to cover.

Be nice to know!

Captain Dart · Nov 10, 2016

wingy said:
Didn't ACL get another £2M off us for the fit out of the stadium?
I'd like to see what that covered?
If it was any hardware such as Screen or seats we should be compensated.

Council report, sure it is all lies.

wingy · Nov 10, 2016

Captain Dart said:
Council report, sure it is all lies.
View attachment 5948

Thanks for that Captain.
The last paragraph still leaves it as a bit vague though.
Seeking retrospective approval, I take it that went through.
Then omitting the cost from the build cost to keep that in budget, resulting in what looks like an extra Million on the mortgage with Yorkshire.
Nor does it show what our contribution was or what it was for.

oldfiver · Nov 11, 2016

I am more intrigued how nearly £6m of tax losses now appears on the Balance Sheet in 2016 - "Utilsation of previously unrecognised losses"
They do not appear to be being "utilised" now - only increasing the current year tax loss
Window dressing?

oldskyblue58 · Nov 11, 2016

some answers from Wasps via the CT

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/wasps-pay-out-1m-investors-12161220

Cant believe Simon Gilbert didn't ask the direct question regarding the lease valuation though

Indirectly answered by the assurance that the auditors and bond trustees are happy with what has been disclosed

Are you comfortable that you’ve met all necessary commitments to bondholders?
“100 per cent. Auditors are required to review that as part of their audit process as is the bond trustee and both of them are entirely happy as well.”
Has there been any contact from the Financial Conduct Authority or the Financial Ombudsman?
“No. Of course not. None whatsoever.”

Nick · Nov 11, 2016

You would have thought after much discussion he would ask it?

It is just done to make Wasps look all great and fantastic, he had no idea about the valuation the other day when quizzed on it.

Wasps breach agreement with bondholders (28 Viewers)

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