Wasps breach agreement with bondholders (3 Viewers)

stupot07 · Nov 14, 2016

italiahorse said:
Can we take the risk ?
What's the plan ? Get rid of Wasps and then not buy the Ricoh because it's not viable with CCFC in L1 ?
Wasps say they want CCFC long term. Have CCFC said they want to stay long term ? (Discounting anybody who was moved on for saying it !! )

They say they want the club their long term then refuse to talk to them about a deal. Their business plan doesn't rely on thr club being their. Its just rhetoric.

Yes we can take the risk, they will do a short term deal, the short term deal will be no worse than any long term deal.

Wasoa are struggling to run it because they massively over borrowed. You keep spouting rhetoric that of wasps can't afford it we couldn't afford it. Thats completely depended in what level of borrowing acl has and who our owners are. Sisu won't be here forever, but I tell you this, we won't get any decent owner coming in who'll if we're tied in and hampered by a long term deal with wasps.

Yes, this is all unlikely, but I'd rather we kept all our options and not toe ourselves into another long term deal which if tied into naming rights is likely to have no breakout clause.

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Grendel · Nov 14, 2016

italiahorse said:
You'll have to take my word for it, particularly as your only evidence is wishful thinking ?

You are either suggesting

1. A company has agreed a deal signed and delivered which will be effective once ccfc future is resolved. That would constitute a pre commitment of funds which already will have had to have been accrued from one financial year to another. Not happening,

2 A deal in principal has been agreed. Given the constant changes of an organisations priorities and also it's need to commit funds each year for budgeting purposes also means this isn't happening.

To suggest somehow ccfc are to blame for no sponsorship is sly and shameful even by your standards.

Terry Gibson's perm · Nov 14, 2016

Maybe they haven't got a new stadium sponsor because in the real world it has a tiny value without a football club and they want/need top dollar Rugby is a minority sport so gets little publicity apart from the Telegraph which very few read. Oh forgot they will soon have the netball there another hugely followed sport italia time to extend the car park:woot:

italiahorse · Nov 14, 2016

Grendel said:
You are either suggesting

1. A company has agreed a deal signed and delivered which will be effective once ccfc future is resolved. That would constitute a pre commitment of funds which already will have had to have been accrued from one financial year to another. Not happening,

2 A deal in principal has been agreed. Given the constant changes of an organisations priorities and also it's need to commit funds each year for budgeting purposes also means this isn't happening.

To suggest somehow ccfc are to blame for no sponsorship is sly and shameful even by your standards.

Your over thinking it !!

italiahorse · Nov 14, 2016

stupot07 said:
They say they want the club their long term then refuse to talk to them about a deal. Their business plan doesn't rely on thr club being their. Its just rhetoric.

Yes we can take the risk, they will do a short term deal, the short term deal will be no worse than any long term deal.

Wasoa are struggling to run it because they massively over borrowed. You keep spouting rhetoric that of wasps can't afford it we couldn't afford it. Thats completely depended in what level of borrowing acl has and who our owners are. Sisu won't be here forever, but I tell you this, we won't get any decent owner coming in who'll if we're tied in and hampered by a long term deal with wasps.

Yes, this is all unlikely, but I'd rather we kept all our options and not toe ourselves into another long term deal which if tied into naming rights is likely to have no breakout clause.

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The way I see it is that we need Wasps more than they need us, but there are financial benefits for them to keep us here.
I also believe that because CCFC can't finance and run the Ricoh they need Wasps to do it so they can stay there.
Therefore because we can't finance our own stadium if Wasps fold we fold.

Ian1779 · Nov 14, 2016

italiahorse said:
Therefore because we can't finance our own stadium if Wasps fold we fold.

Not quite sure how you work that out. If Wasps fold lease goes back to original holder. We would still be tenants....

stupot07 · Nov 14, 2016

italiahorse said:
Therefore because we can't finance our own stadium if Wasps fold we fold.

italiahorse said:
Okay, If Wasps fold the stadium eventually folds and then we fold.

Simply not true. We could

A) ground share away temporarily
B) play at the butts temporarily with tempory stands
C) purchase the lease off CCC when they re-tender it - shouldnt be too much given a 200+ year extension was only £1m (don't forget it won't have any debt, and we wouldn't be buying shares in acl)
D) another stadium/events company purchases the leave off CCC and we continue to rent from them.

I don't understand why you persist with this scaremongering rhetoric.

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italiahorse · Nov 14, 2016

Ian1779 said:
Not quite sure how you work that out. If Wasps fold lease goes back to original holder. We would still be tenants....

Okay, If Wasps fold the stadium eventually folds and then we fold.

Nick · Nov 14, 2016

italiahorse said:
Okay, If Wasps fold the stadium eventually folds and then we fold.

Surely would just play somewhere else or buy the lease or rent it off whoever does but it.

italiahorse · Nov 14, 2016

Nick said:
Surely would just play somewhere else or buy the lease or rent it off whoever does but it.

Playing somewhere else would finish any chance of getting above this level. Where do you reckon .... Northampton?
Anyone except Wasps then ?
Can't believe how some can't see beyond the end of their nose.

Nick · Nov 14, 2016

italiahorse said:
Playing somewhere else would finish any chance of getting above this level. Where do you reckon .... Northampton?
Anyone except Wasps then ?
Can't believe how some can't see beyond the end of their nose.

Ay? You were the one saying we would go bust if wasps did. I say there are other options and it's anybody but wasps?

Then you go on about something else.

All I can see is you with some sort of desperation with wasps.

chiefdave · Nov 14, 2016

italiahorse said:
Okay, If Wasps fold the stadium eventually folds and then we fold.

You do realise if Wasps go bust the stadium won't immediately collapse into a pile of rubble?

italiahorse · Nov 14, 2016

chiefdave said:
You do realise if Wasps go bust the stadium won't immediately collapse into a pile of rubble?

Obviously ...... It didn't the first time but I'm sure Sisu could put that right next time.
I'm sure a few here believe this would be a good plan.

Ian1779 · Nov 14, 2016

italiahorse said:
Obviously ...... It didn't the first time but I'm sure Sisu could put that right next time.
I'm sure a few here believe this would be a good plan.

Not just a good plan... a fucking amazing plan!

SkyblueBazza · Nov 14, 2016

You do realise that pies collapse though?
That's always a disaster on a cold January midweek game. Burnt fingers & chins all round!!!

...onwards & upwards PUSB

chiefdave · Nov 14, 2016

While I don't particularly think waiting around for Wasps to go bust is the best plan moving forward I don't really see why it would be such a terrible thing.

Someone (either the bond holders or CCC) will end up with the lease, albeit the 50 year one, that they want to get shot of. That means someone will be able to buy the lease without the huge debt. Sure they will need to fund the purchase but given the original sale price and a failure since the price would surely be lower than before.

So realistically either the club picks up the stadium for a relatively low price or somebody else buys the stadium and we continue to rent. Struggling to see how either option leaves us worse off?

Captain Dart · Nov 14, 2016

stupot07 said:
Wasoa are struggling to run it because they massively over borrowed.

Rather like CCFC in some if not in all respects.

dongonzalos · Nov 14, 2016

chiefdave said:
While I don't particularly think waiting around for Wasps to go bust is the best plan moving forward I don't really see why it would be such a terrible thing.

Someone (either the bond holders or CCC) will end up with the lease, albeit the 50 year one, that they want to get shot of. That means someone will be able to buy the lease without the huge debt. Sure they will need to fund the purchase but given the original sale price and a failure since the price would surely be lower than before.

So realistically either the club picks up the stadium for a relatively low price or somebody else buys the stadium and we continue to rent. Struggling to see how either option leaves us worse off?

What do you think is the best plan moving forward?

stupot07 · Nov 14, 2016

Captain Dart said:
Rather like CCFC in some if not in all respects.

Absolutely.

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Ian1779 · Nov 14, 2016

dongonzalos said:
What do you think is the best plan moving forward?

Best plan would be SISU pulling their fingers out of their arses and either getting on with a new ground (either Butts or elsewhere) or fucking off and letting someone else get on with that plan.

Staying at the Ricoh with Wasps means we will be forever hamstrung by them and our inability to generate our own revenues.

italiahorse · Nov 14, 2016

Ian1779 said:
Best plan would be SISU pulling their fingers out of their arses and either getting on with a new ground (either Butts or elsewhere) or fucking off and letting someone else get on with that plan.

Staying at the Ricoh with Wasps means we will be forever hamstrung by them and our inability to generate our own revenues.

If we get a new stadium we won't own it.
We will rent it and food incomes will have to be negotiated.
Groundhog day ?

italiahorse · Nov 14, 2016

Ian1779 said:
Not just a good plan... a fucking amazing plan!

Give Sisu the thumbs up then and good luck with holding onto their coat tails.

dongonzalos · Nov 15, 2016

Sitting waiting and trying to ensure a business goes under. Is a tried and tested plan that has spectacularly failed already.
If we follow that plan again I assume it will need to be done at break even point.
I also think it would take about ten years.
Crap plan for fans
A plausible plan for SISU.
However I still believe it would be doomed to failure

olderskyblue · Nov 15, 2016

chiefdave said:
While I don't particularly think waiting around for Wasps to go bust is the best plan moving forward I don't really see why it would be such a terrible thing.

Someone (either the bond holders or CCC) will end up with the lease, albeit the 50 year one, that they want to get shot of. That means someone will be able to buy the lease without the huge debt. Sure they will need to fund the purchase but given the original sale price and a failure since the price would surely be lower than before.

So realistically either the club picks up the stadium for a relatively low price or somebody else buys the stadium and we continue to rent. Struggling to see how either option leaves us worse off?

Agree with most of this, but...

I don't think the club will own it, it will be sisu, or one of the other companies.
Even If it was them or someone completely new, the rent could still go up, so we could be worse off. Too many unknowns of course to know either way, but as you said, it's not really the best plan to have.

dongonzalos · Nov 15, 2016

Ian1779 said:
Best plan would be SISU pulling their fingers out of their arses and either getting on with a new ground (either Butts or elsewhere) or fucking off and letting someone else get on with that plan.
.

Concur

Moff · Nov 15, 2016

italiahorse said:
Can we take the risk ?
What's the plan ? Get rid of Wasps and then not buy the Ricoh because it's not viable with CCFC in L1 ?
Wasps say they want CCFC long term. Have CCFC said they want to stay long term ? (Discounting anybody who was moved on for saying it !! )

But a while ago you were telling us how viable the Ricoh was despite CCFC, and Wasps home games. Yet now its a change of story...its not viable.
You just change your story to suit your argument. Sad really.

Moff · Nov 15, 2016

italiahorse said:
You'll have to take my word for it, particularly as your only evidence is wishful thinking ?

Ironic. What's your evidence? Oh yes you are on the Wasps board and have Richardson's ear.

italiahorse · Nov 15, 2016

Moff said:
But a while ago you were telling us how viable the Ricoh was despite CCFC, and Wasps home games. Yet now its a change of story...its not viable.
You just change your story to suit your argument. Sad really.

Your getting confused.
I'm saying if Wasps fold CCFC could not run it from L1 and hence the stadium and CCFC would fold.
CCFC best chance is to get a deal with Wasps.
I'm saying that it's not a plan to get rid of Wasps without knowing the repercussions.
A few people on here just want Wasps to fold and don't seem to care about anything else.

Moff · Nov 15, 2016

italiahorse said:
Your getting confused.
I'm saying if Wasps fold CCFC could not run it from L1 and hence the stadium and CCFC would fold.
CCFC best chance is to get a deal with Wasps.
I'm saying that it's not a plan to get rid of Wasps without knowing the repercussions.
A few people on here just want Wasps to fold and don't seem to care about anything else.

Thanks for explaining, I understand what you were trying to point out now. I don't want Wasps to fold, but wouldn't be sad to see them return to London like Saracens did.

I'm always confused, don't tell me it doesn't happen to you as well.

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 15, 2016

italiahorse said:
A few people on here just want Wasps to fold and don't seem to care about anything else.

Pile of absolute bollocks.

italiahorse · Nov 15, 2016

Deleted member 5849 said:
Pile of absolute bollocks.

I know.
Some people eh ?

chiefdave · Nov 15, 2016

italiahorse said:
Your getting confused.
I'm saying if Wasps fold CCFC could not run it from L1 and hence the stadium and CCFC would fold.
CCFC best chance is to get a deal with Wasps.
I'm saying that it's not a plan to get rid of Wasps without knowing the repercussions.
A few people on here just want Wasps to fold and don't seem to care about anything else.

Can you give some detail on that. CCFC and ACL are separate entities so we would just be looking at ACL, or its replacement. We were told repeatedly by CCC ACL weren't reliant on CCFC and didn't need them there to 'wash its face'. We are also told Wasps business plan also is not reliant on CCFC being there for ACL to be viable.

Given our total attendances over a season are greater than Wasps and that in the event of the lease being resold the 'new ACL' would likely have much less debt as they should only be funding the purchase price why could CCFC not run the arena successfully? If you're saying CCFC can't then the implication is nobody can as the stad co would be separate from the club. If it is impossible for a stad co to be viable how can Wasps or CCFC survive at any ground, indeed how do other clubs / stadiums survive?

Grendel · Nov 15, 2016

chiefdave said:
Can you give some detail on that. CCFC and ACL are separate entities so we would just be looking at ACL, or its replacement. We were told repeatedly by CCC ACL weren't reliant on CCFC and didn't need them there to 'wash its face'. We are also told Wasps business plan also is not reliant on CCFC being there for ACL to be viable.

Given our total attendances over a season are greater than Wasps and that in the event of the lease being resold the 'new ACL' would likely have much less debt as they should only be funding the purchase price why could CCFC not run the arena successfully? If you're saying CCFC can't then the implication is nobody can as the stad co would be separate from the club. If it is impossible for a stad co to be viable how can Wasps or CCFC survive at any ground, indeed how do other clubs / stadiums survive?

He will accuse you of thinking too deeply about it....

italiahorse · Nov 15, 2016

chiefdave said:
Can you give some detail on that. CCFC and ACL are separate entities so we would just be looking at ACL, or its replacement. We were told repeatedly by CCC ACL weren't reliant on CCFC and didn't need them there to 'wash its face'. We are also told Wasps business plan also is not reliant on CCFC being there for ACL to be viable.

Given our total attendances over a season are greater than Wasps and that in the event of the lease being resold the 'new ACL' would likely have much less debt as they should only be funding the purchase price why could CCFC not run the arena successfully? If you're saying CCFC can't then the implication is nobody can as the stad co would be separate from the club. If it is impossible for a stad co to be viable how can Wasps or CCFC survive at any ground, indeed how do other clubs / stadiums survive?

Forget what CCC said about ACL not being reliant on CCFC. It's was all about upping the pressure on Sisu. Similarly Sisu saying they could financially back CCFC in Northampton was untrue.
Wasps incomes far outway CCFC incomes. It's all about clout and currently we don't have any,
IMHO if Wasps go both ACL and CCFC are in big trouble.

italiahorse · Nov 15, 2016

Grendel said:
He will accuse you of thinking too deeply about it....

He at least puts a good alternative argument into the debate.
A lot better than "No they won't" or "Does your mate Nick sit you on his knee"

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