Wasps downward spiral... (18 Viewers)

As you would expect after that news the bond is dropping again. Down 7%

jordan210 said:

As you would expect after that news the bond is dropping again. Down 7%

Click to expand...

Dropped over 3.5% yesterday.

Teetering on the edge I reckon.

Few quotes from the finance site under the wasps bond

Covenants refer to debt ratios, cash holdings, new loans etc. Not necessarily interest payments.

Click to expand...

Not one figure in the trading update to give bond holders any insight into either current cash or profitability. I'm sorry to say some of the retail bonds are like playing with fire as the only reason they are on ORB is because they can't get funding elsewhere or the coupon demanded due to the risk is too high.

Click to expand...

Tbh covid is a happy excuse for them, it brings forward the inevitable and they shall claim covid played a larger part than it did.

fernandopartridge said:

Tbh covid is a happy excuse for them, it brings forward the inevitable and they shall claim covid played a larger part than it did.

Click to expand...

Does that matter?

oldfiver said:

Does that matter?

Click to expand...

Could be good, gives them a reason to leave/sell and save face.

Liquid Gold said:

Could be good, gives them a reason to leave/sell and save face.

Click to expand...

They've missed a golden opportunity that would have me absolutely raging if I was a Wasps fan.

They could have moved into the brand new Brentford stadium, that's 17,250 capacity and due to open this summer, absolutely perfect for them. They could revive the London double header and if they needed a bigger capacity for any games could use Wembley, only 4 miles away, as Saracens have done in the past (they're now using the new Spurs stadium).

That ground is only 5 miles from where Wasps ground in Sudbury was from 1923 to 1996 and less than 1.5 miles from their old training ground which they used until 2015 and where the amateur club is still based.

Its a complete no brainer but they turned it down, telling fans rugby wouldn't be allowed there. London Irish are moving in instead.

To put the distances in perspective its the same as a new ground being built by the airport (1.5 miles from Ryton, 5 miles from the Ricoh) and SISU turning it down to move to Bury's empty ground.

chiefdave said:

They've missed a golden opportunity that would have me absolutely raging if I was a Wasps fan.

They could have moved into the brand new Brentford stadium, that's 17,250 capacity and due to open this summer, absolutely perfect for them. They could revive the London double header and if they needed a bigger capacity for any games could use Wembley, only 4 miles away, as Saracens have done in the past (they're now using the new Spurs stadium).

That ground is only 5 miles from where Wasps ground in Sudbury was from 1923 to 1996 and less than 1.5 miles from their old training ground which they used until 2015 and where the amateur club is still based.

Its a complete no brainer but they turned it down, telling fans rugby wouldn't be allowed there. London Irish are moving in instead.

To put the distances in perspective its the same as a new ground being built by the airport (1.5 miles from Ryton, 5 miles from the Ricoh) and SISU turning it down to move to Bury's empty ground.

Click to expand...

They got greedy. Now karma's a bitch.

Brighton Sky Blue said:

They got greedy. Now karma's a bitch.

Click to expand...

I suppose that depends on whether Richardson is really in it for Wasps or whether he's just interested in the property. Push will come to shove on that one pretty soon.

You don't hear much from Nick Eastwood nowadays, he's gone really quiet, Richardson doesn't say much anyway. They have Stephen Vaughan as there Chief executive who is in a similar role as Dave Boddy and has no real power just a spokesperson. Hopefully the sinking Wasps ship will soon be submerged!

Gynnsthetonic said:

You don't hear much from Nick Eastwood nowadays, he's gone really quiet, Richardson doesn't say much anyway. They have Stephen Vaughan as there Chief executive who is in a similar role as Dave Boddy and has no real power just a spokesperson. Hopefully the sinking Wasps ship will soon be submerged!

Click to expand...

I say we club together for a novelty size insect spray can for the day they go bust.

I can't see them going bust and leaving for some considerable time if ever while there is always the chance of a deal with SISU. Hopefully, it will be one on far worse terms than they would like.
As time passes it must get better for us in the sense of having more leverage.

Derek Richardson's deep pockets?

It's re-finance or walk away.

CCFC54321 said:

I understand he doesn’t have that type of capital?

Click to expand...

Let's hope so. Things are grim for Wasps and I've no idea how they'll get out of it. I would think they would grab a deal with us rather than go bust. SISU may not be interested. I have no answers but feel it's coming more in our favour.

Kneeza said:

It's re-finance or walk away.

Click to expand...

I hope you're right.

CCFC54321 said:

I stand corrected but I thought or believed reading someone more informed than me that it would be very difficult to re finance this debt?

Click to expand...

In fairness, I don't really understand the finer points and rely on more informed posters on here.

CCFC54321 said:

I stand corrected but I thought or believed reading someone more informed than me that it would be very difficult to re finance this debt?

Click to expand...

It'll be incredibly difficult, I'm quite sure.

Kneeza said:

It'll be incredibly difficult, I'm quite sure.

Click to expand...

I think it’s down to cash flow

CCFC54321 said:

I stand corrected but I thought or believed reading someone more informed than me that it would be very difficult to re finance this debt?

Click to expand...

probably the next valuation of the Ricoh would be key

tisza said:

probably the next valuation of the Ricoh would be key

Click to expand...

Not due until March 2021 - personally cannot see that it will be the current £51m in the 2019 financials

Now dont misunderstand me i never wanted wasps here and their financials are a mess. It is easy to look at it with hindsight but at the time was Brentford even an option?

If we accept that wasps were looking to move well before October 2014 when they moved to Coventry then you have to accept that the search was going on in 2012 and 2013. Brentford didnt get outline planning permission until June 2014 and the detailed planning permission for homes at the old to be sold stadium in September 2015. The residential element at the new ground that was to finance the build came January 2016. Permission to use as a stadium for Rugby February 2017. September 2017 the stadium size was changed and reduced. It is planned to open shortly in 2020

Before their move to Coventry wasps were making annual losses of between £3m to £4m. Salary costs increases in premiership would have added to that, They had an arrangement at Wycombe (capacity 9448) that was costing them £500k+ per annum in rent and a deal that was as restrictive on other incomes as the CCFC one at the Ricoh. From when they started looking could they wait 8 years for Brentford to materialise? Could they carry £25m to £30m more losses with no assets to cover it and no real possibility to grow incomes during that 8 years? Were they looking to be tenants or did they think putting substantial assets on the balance sheet would improve their financial position? I just dont think that Brentford met their ambition or indeed the timeline so it wasnt an option. Yes it probably does make more sense now - but thats hindsight. They needed to do something major in 2014 or cease to be several years after.

Part of the problem with wasps is rank poor financial management. They have lived well beyond their means, just like many football clubs and at some point that has to bite. Unlike football clubs however there is no transfer market to cushion the finances. There are lessons they can learn from CCFC in managing finances. I think that they now have a Chief Exec that knows how to make it all work, but it is all on a knife edge and it could be too late. Covid19 has brutally exposed that financial mess

They had to put the Bond statement out. I dont think that you have to a financial whizz kid to realise that the profits would be down following months of closure. Or that post Covid19 lockdown that the stadium value and Premiership league shares value would have likely reduced. Or that the EBITDA calculation might be negatively impacted. Stock exchange rules mean disclosure as soon as possible. The fact the bond price dipped because of it is really still just irrelevant to the wasps day to day running. It doesnt mean the interest hasnt been paid or wont be paid.

They still rely on Richardson to keep them afloat, but we do not know his financial wealth or access to funds. We are basing it on his disposal in 2010. But i dont think he is super rich to be able to keep shelling out

oldskyblue58 said:

Now dont misunderstand me i never wanted wasps here and their financials are a mess. It is easy to look at it with hindsight but at the time was Brentford even an option?

Click to expand...

Its no secret that Wasps were looking at Brentford prior to their move here. Seems it was the favoured option among their fans.

When the move to the Ricoh was announced Wasps claimed Brentford was ruled out as it wouldn't be possible to play rugby there yet it later emerged they were one of three clubs who had been approached to ground share with Brentford FC.

Wasps on the verge of takeover by Derek Richardson-led consortium with groundshare with Brentford on the cards
Brentford: Chief executive Mark Devlin aims to grow fan base
DrunkenWasps.com - New stadium/ground share
DrunkenWasps.com - Takeover and Brentford move

Cheers CD

But as we know fans don't make decisions and I still don't think the timing worked. I think they would have been in the championship by now at best because they wouldn't have funding to compete They couldn't wait 6 to 8 years

oldskyblue58 said:

Cheers CD

But as we know fans don't make decisions and I still don't think the timing worked. I think they would have been in the championship by now at best because they wouldn't have funding to compete They couldn't wait 6 to 8 years

Click to expand...

They've turned £3m - £4m losses into £10m losses and increased their net debt in a big way, I'm not really sure I follow your argument? Would an interim arrangement of playing at Griffin Park not been a possibility if agreed by BFC?

fernandopartridge said:

They've turned £3m - £4m losses into £10m losses and increased their net debt in a big way, I'm not really sure I follow your argument? Would an interim arrangement of playing at Griffin Park not been a possibility if agreed by BFC?

Click to expand...

They didn't know that in 2013 or 2014 did they though

Perhaps a short term agreement may have been possible but the people looking at what they thought was best for wasps in 2013 and 2014 do not or did not share the same view as this forum. You have to assume that at the time they thought, having far more info than us, that they were making the best decision for their club. It hasn't worked out well so far.

Also just a thought but considering the documented involvement in talks about the ricoh in 2012 to 2014 perhaps Brentford was a fortunate cover for what was actually the target.

CCFC54321 said:

Thanks for the input to this discussion. My question though is how on this planet do they pay £35m back?

Click to expand...

Not sure to be honest I doubt it can be exactly the same plan as they had in 2014. The financial world has changed greatly. Luckily not my problem