WASPS Interim Accounts (17 Viewers)

No partnership is needed just a rental agreement that gives us a platform to build and which rightly acknowledges our contribution to the stadium. There is no need for us to jump into bed with Wasps. As I have always said, we're the main attraction. People think of a sporting club in Coventry and they think CCFC. People think of the Ricoh, they think CCFC. People need to bang that drum to enable the club to get a deal that benefits us. All this talk of we need Wasps plays into their hands in negotiations. We're CCFC fans, let's support them and their ambitions not Wasps.

Can we not jump into bed with them though and then grab all the sheets, eventually kicking them out of the bed and onto the hard floor, with them feeling humiliated and just wanting to go back to their own bed,or to someone else's to cheat on their missus instead of ours?

SkyBlueZack said:

No partnership is needed just a rental agreement that gives us a platform to build and which rightly acknowledges our contribution to the stadium. There is no need for us to jump into bed with Wasps. As I have always said, we're the main attraction. People think of a sporting club in Coventry and they think CCFC. People think of the Ricoh, they think CCFC. People need to bang that drum to enable the club to get a deal that benefits us. All this talk of we need Wasps plays into their hands in negotiations. We're CCFC fans, let's support them and their ambitions not Wasps.

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I would say CCFC being at the Ricoh ups the value of the naming rights and this should be pushed in any negotiations. Unfortunately, we are not in control and therefore we have to Play along with their ambitions- but at the same time pushing our agenda as much as possible. Whether we hate Wasps or not is irrelevant commercially speaking. 'Commercial advantage' is what should count for us.

fernandopartridge said:

Yet CCFC have no right to any of that sponsorship income.

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Not under the current arrangement. Let's say for arguments sake that the sponsorship is worth twice as much with CCFC there than without CCFC then CCFC having a share of that extra value should make up part of any rent agreement moving forward. You could argue that the further up the league pyramid we are the bigger the exposure the club brings to the Arena so the share of the sponsorship should go up. Also said in a different thread what's stopping CCFC bringing a stadium sponsorship deal to the table as part of the rent agreement?

Why would ccfc tout around for stadium sponsors for wasps? Why would potential stadium sponsor even talk to ccfc about something they don't own? Seems to me another way of setting it up as an excuse sisu/ccfc failure before a deal does/doesn't happen. They'll fuck it up without burdening them with finding a sponsor for wasps stadium.

On a side note, of sponsorship is worth x2 for having us there, we should be getting at least 50% of that.


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stupot07 said:

Why would ccfc tout around for stadium sponsors for wasps? Why would potential stadium sponsor even talk to ccfc about something they don't own? Seems to me another way of setting it up as an excuse sisu/ccfc failure before a deal does/doesn't happen. They'll fuck it up without burdening them with finding a sponsor for wasps stadium.

On a side note, of sponsorship is worth x2 for having us there, we should be getting at least 50% of that.


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CCFC could act as a broker based on committing to a rental agreement equal to the length of the sponsorship deal. To my thinking with football being the higher profile sport that makes CCFC in a stronger negotiating position than Wasps where stadium sponsorship is concerned. It's just a case of thinking outside the box. Companies use outside parties to market their product all the time. It wouldn't really be any different on paper to us outsourcing the club shop, it's only the product being sold that's different.

skybluetony176 said:

CCFC could act as a broker based on committing to a rental agreement equal to the length of the sponsorship deal. To my thinking with football being the higher profile sport that makes CCFC in a stronger negotiating position than Wasps where stadium sponsorship is concerned. It's just a case of thinking outside the box. Companies use outside parties to market their product all the time. It wouldn't really be any different on paper to us outsourcing the club shop, it's only the product being sold that's different.

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Just can't see it working Tony. The sponsors will want to know what events are planned/strategy going forward for the stadium, etc. We won't know that, and therefore sponsors won't be able say we'll pay X if you sign up. Wasps are already touting, and really how much more sponsorship will it be if we're there or not? Then it's balanced out by rent agreement, and the fact the club have absolutely nowhere to go and we know they will never build another stadium, so say if ccfc can get a sponsor worth £200k pa, but want half as commission and keep lower rent, then was would be better off with their own sponsors and charging ccfc more than £100k extra on its rent. At the end of the day, it's very very unlikely we will get to the PL so wasps won't be basing their model and decisions on that.




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duffer said:

Hmm.

What I'm taking from this is a company that despite being gifted a stadium isn't yet turning a profit, with an obligation to pay over £2.3 million in interest on a £35 million loan which will also need to be paid back in 2022. I'm not saying that Wasps will fail anytime soon - but as headline news that doesn't look overly healthy to me.

Profit margins look pretty low, and they've been heavily discounting a key part of the product too (tickets), which also isn't a great mix from what I can recall of my limited financial knowledge. Evidence doesn't suggest that they're gaining much traction in terms of increased attendances, in fact I think it's the opposite for most games.

I take OSB's very legitimate point that the market still considers the bonds to be worth around the original value, but I do see some smoke and mirrors in terms of the security for them (a stadium that they don't own the freehold on, which loses a lot of value if Wasps aren't there, which they won't be if they're going bust and the bonds can't be repaid!).

I'm not challenging OSB's analysis here by the way - it's as honest and detailed as ever, but I don't quite see it the same way.

Regardless, they're still a franchise, they still don't have Coventry in their name or their heritage, and they're still in the way of the football club getting what they need. Personally, as a CCFC/CRFC fan I can see no reason to support them.

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always good to discuss things with you duffer, so I certainly don't have any issue with you seeing things differently or anyone else

Just some additional thoughts and questions .....

Wasps are well less than two years in to a long term project. Is it reasonable to think that the group would be making profits at this stage given a number of one off costs and organisational changes. ?

What comes first success on the pitch or investing in the payroll/players ? Similar off the pitch too isn't it?

As I understand it part of the bond issue money has been retained to pay the first 3 interest payments - that alleviates the cash flow pressure to begin with

despite being in a non profit situation they still invested over 4m in infra structure and committed to improving their squad - people like Cipriani will not come cheap.

As said before depends how they intend to repay the loans as to whether its a problem. What they have done with the bond issue is to buy time to get the finances right, time to build success on the pitch. In the first two years after the bond issue then there is no cost cashflow wise either if they have retained monies to pay interest. What the bond issue does do is to spread the risk from one man to many - that's not bad thinking at all

Looking at the ticketing then the average price excluding VAT is around £15 per head (best CCFC have achieved is around £11 per head) If as some suggest 50% of the tickets are freebies that makes the average amount paid £30 ph by those actually buying (that's above the general ticket price I believe). those ticket theories don't seem to add up. Looking at ticketing then on like for like in 2015 ticket income of the group went up £400k compared to 2014 but on two less matches

Most of the incomes show significant increases but so do the costs certainly but I think what the accounts show is that it that the group have bottomed out the finances, are prepared to invest on and off the pitch. The guys running this are (a) very experienced financially (b) very experienced in running sports clubs or franchises, they understand from the get go the problems to be faced. They seem to understand the notion of invest to succeed and targeted investment

Have Wasps failed to engage the fans? Their average crowd may be down but it is (a) healthy (b) bigger than CCFC (c) bigger than they could even fit in to Adams Park. If they continue to succeed on the pitch, build their way in to the sporting community in Coventry and surrounding area then will crowds "drop" further? Certainly last season there was a curiosity element but .... Do they need to increase over last year or simply be better than they have been in years elsewhere?.

In terms of footfall then the Arena has over 1.5m. of that 300k will be CCFC and 200k Rugby in round terms. Things like footfall are important to things like naming rights. The Arena is unlike many other stadiums because of the other facilities there which all add value to the "name" too

As for the turnover mix then it would seem to be one third based on Rugby and 2/3rds based on the other elements of arena. Even the Rugby incomes seems to include 60% of it as central distributions That spreads the risk away from the team.

Events can take over 12 mths to get in to place. So for the first year at least some of the income/expenses were affected by decisions before Wasps got here or were able to control. As we know there is a definite drive to bring higher end entertainment to the Arena on a regular basis. But that is still to come

Difficult to see what the real margins are on the various income streams because there is no split on direct wages.

Thing is bringing in events tends to bring in other events because at least for a while it is seen as the place to be..... but that takes time. In terms of this project Wasps have been here next to no time and there is still plenty to build on

Don't think they will or have the intention of including Coventry in their name . Do they need to or do they just need to keep winning on the pitch?

Do CCFC add much to naming rights given they only have a two year commitment? To greatly improve naming rights they will need to commit for a much longer period and to actually succeed on the pitch (they haven't in years nor look likely to at the moment <fingers crossed that damn well changes>) then they can argue for a share on the premium on the naming rights above those available without them.

Having written all that, then it has depressed me about the future of our CCFC, and what has and is going on there, perhaps todays result will help dispel some of that. PUSB's

oldskyblue58 said:

Wasps are well less than two years in to a long term project. Is it reasonable to think that the group would be making profits at this stage given a number of one off costs and organisational changes. ?

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The honest answer to that is no, not at all... (at least in my opinion ). However, it's the fact it's so soon in to a project of embedding, that makes these accounts, to my mind, utterly irrelevant as to whether the project works or not.

Short term surprising expenses would be to be expected, and a huge variation on crowds would be expected too... pretty hard to predict early days how that will go.

We won't see if this works or not for a good five years, IMO.

Deleted member 5849 said:

The honest answer to that is no, not at all... (at least in my opinion ). However, it's the fact it's so soon in to a project of embedding, that makes these accounts, to my mind, utterly irrelevant as to whether the project works or not.

Short term surprising expenses would be to be expected, and a huge variation on crowds would be expected too... pretty hard to predict early days how that will go.

We won't see if this works or not for a good five years, IMO.

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Wouldn't disagree with that NW

Deleted member 5849 said:

The honest answer to that is no, not at all... (at least in my opinion ). However, it's the fact it's so soon in to a project of embedding, that makes these accounts, to my mind, utterly irrelevant as to whether the project works or not.

Short term surprising expenses would be to be expected, and a huge variation on crowds would be expected too... pretty hard to predict early days how that will go.

We won't see if this works or not for a good five years, IMO.

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Do you think that their plan includes trying to become the best supported sports club in Coventry? I faced dogs abuse from some posters for suggesting so.

italiahorse said:

I suppose Wasps improvements will be a expanding fan base and developments at the Ricoh.

No doubt though that CCFC are a sleeping giant and the potential from where we are is huge.
It's just how we get there is the problem.

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Expanding fan base? There attendances peaked last season, only downhill from here.

Interesting that attendances approximately increased by 200% from Adams Park to Ricoh yet ticket revenues are only up by 50%

CCFC said:

Expanding fan base? There attendances peaked last season, only downhill from here.

Interesting that attendances approximately increased by 200% from Adams Park to Ricoh yet ticket revenues are only up by 50%

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The clue is that revenues are up by 50%

italiahorse said:

The clue is that revenues are up by 50%

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Despite attendances almost tripling from Adams Park, very poor.

CCFC said:

Despite attendances almost tripling from Adams Park, very poor.

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It's all about profits not attendances, surely ?

CCFC said:

Despite attendances almost tripling from Adams Park, very poor.

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Keeping the dislike out of it..... They seem to be going in the right direction ( as said before on here, it is income and profit from attendances that count for a business plan not the actual size of the crowd ). I prefer larger attendances for CCFC because I see football as more of a people's sport than Rugby. You get a better atmosphere with more fans at football. Too early to say if they will be here long term though, but not looking like a disaster.

It looks to me that if you crunch some of the numbers and compare the six months to 31/12/15 to 31/12/14 you get

the ticket income per head has increased from around £13.20 to £15.85 (the full year was 14.47)

That there would appear to be an increase in paying customers of something like 2500 per match comparing the two periods. Or perhaps more significant is that since 30/06/2015 that number is 1350 per match increase in paying customers at a less discounted ticket price

had there been 8 matches in the latest period not 6 that ticket income would have been nearer 1.9m not 1.46m. Let alone the effect that those matches would have had on things like hospitality, F&B etc, could have meant breakeven before interest charges in 6 months to 31/12/15

Whilst actual physical attendance numbers seem to fascinate people here, because it gives them some comfort I assume, the actual financial figures do not at this time point to Wasps taking steps backward. All this on the basis of moving miles to a place they have no obvious fan support in the first place less than 2 years ago.

Frankly I find the implications of this for CCFC worrying, not only in finding a permanent home or potential deal but also from the longer term attraction of future fans and getting them to pay for football not rugby - many cant do both. CCFC are starting from a long distance back and their only advantage seems to be that they have always been here. If they don't get a plan and sharpen up their act then claims of being the biggest club are going to ring very hollow. CCFC is not in as strong a position as it should be and it isn't too difficult to suggest promotion/success on the pitch is vital

one last point
Ticket income per match
Wasps 243k (based on the interim figs to 31/12/15 6 matches)
CCFC 98K (based on 2015 accounts details flexed for crowd increases this 2015/16 year say 24 matches)

concerned ..... I think we(CCFC) should be

Let's just get signed up and for once have a stable football club.

oldskyblue58 said:

Frankly I find the implications of this for CCFC worrying, not only in finding a permanent home or potential deal but also from the longer term attraction of future fans and getting them to pay for football not rugby - many cant do both. CCFC are starting from a long distance back and their only advantage seems to be that they have always been here.

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I've been banging on about this since they moved here. Medium to long term one of the two club can truly thrive in the city, and be its premier sports club and the first choice for spending their hard earned cash on.

There's a few on here saying wasps have no impact on ccfc or CRFC that they are all separate fan bases, but you hit the nail on the head.

With the Ricoh gone, it doesn't look like we'll be attracting new owners willing to throw money at the club any time soon. So I suspect we'll just stagnate as a league one-championship yoyo club, and support will slowly start to dwindle over the next 5-10 years.


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The majority of people I know who have attended Wasps. Have absolute no interest in CCFC or football at all to be honest.
How do other places survive that have both a successful football club and rugby club?

dongonzalos said:

The majority of people I know who have attended Wasps. Have absolute no interest in CCFC or football at all to be honest.
How do other places survive that have both a successful football club and rugby club?

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No football club has to my knowledge played in a ground owned by a rugby club except Stockport County?

dongonzalos said:

The majority of people I know who have attended Wasps. Have absolute no interest in CCFC or football at all to be honest.
How do other places survive that have both a successful football club and rugby club?

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Leicester comes to mind.

Grendel said:

No football club has to my knowledge played in a ground owned by a rugby club except Stockport County?

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The point was about competition for fans
Whether it is in the same stadium or two stadiums in the same city.
Cities survive with both big rugby and big football clubs. Leicester as the prime example.

Leicester is the exception rather than the rule, they have 130 years history and have a catchment area of the whole of Midlands for most of that, wasps by transplanting themselves. Wasps are going to predominately draw from from cov and Warwickshire as rugby fans from further afield will already have their clubs.

We've always struggled for fans, due to the large number of Midlands football clubs and the glory supporter of United, Liverpool, Chelsea, etc. Now wasps are drawing from our catchment area, and are getting into our schools trying to recruit the next generation of fan. They are competition for fans, anyone who thinks otherwise is being thick or just plain ignorant.



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stupot07 said:

Leicester is the exception rather than the rule, they have 130 years history and have a catchment area of the whole of Midlands for most of that, wasps by transplanting themselves. Wasps are going to predominately draw from from cov and Warwickshire as rugby fans from further afield will already have their clubs.

We've always struggled for fans, due to the large number of Midlands football clubs and the glory supporter of United, Liverpool, Chelsea, etc. Now wasps are drawing from our catchment area, and are getting into our schools trying to recruit the next generation of fan. They are competition for fans, anyone who thinks otherwise is being thick or just plain ignorant.



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I would say rather than ignorant or thick. Those who realise Wasps are not a threat to the CCFC fan base are probably unsensational and don't make comments driven by their sheer hate of Wasps, instead drawing on rational thinking and common sense.
The biggest threat to CCFC's fan base is third division football, a spell playing in another town, which many didn't agree was necessary. Owners that the fans have became detached from the fans and 10-15 years of steady decline and failure.
If CCFC have success on the pitch the crowds will go up even if Wasps are selling out every week it really is as simple as that.

I take it Newcastle are another exception?
I assume you won't include Rugby League Leeds Hull, Bradford, Wigan. Salford ect....

dongonzalos said:

I would say rather than ignorant or thick. Those who realise Wasps are not a threat to the CCFC fan base are probably unsensational and don't make comments driven by their sheer hate of Wasps, instead drawing on rational thinking and common sense.
The biggest threat to CCFC's fan base is third division football, a spell playing in another town, which many didn't agree was necessary. Owners that the fans have became detached from the fans and 10-15 years of steady decline and failure.
If CCFC have success on the pitch the crowds will go up even if Wasps are selling out every week it really is as simple as that.

I take it Newcastle are another exception?
I assume you won't include Rugby League Leeds Hull, Bradford, Wigan. Salford ect....

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Of course they are a threat. There's a lot of city fans that go to wasps a a fair few on my Twitter feed that have stopped going to the city this season but now have wasps ST's.

Funny you mention Newcastle:

Newcastle United 49.5k Falcons 5.1k not much competition there, the football club are well and truly number one.

And all those rugby league clubs get substantially smaller attendances than their football counter parts and their seasons only overlap by a 2-3 months so not a really a direct competitor.

Yes, third tier football is a huge threat, but unlikely to change much given the situation we're in, we're going to find it much harder to find a new owner willing to throw the level of money in required to get to the PL now the station is gone.

And I wholeheartedly disagree. If wasps are getting full houses week in week out, we will struggle. If we do well get in the championship and pushing for promotion, then wasps attendances will suffer. We've struggled to get attendances for years.

We could all just cover our ears and sing la la la la la, and pretend wasps are in now way competition for paying customers or no threat in anyway to us and CRFC.

And as for your first point saying this comment is about hatred, OSB had also said this in this thread and he doesn't hate wasps. Or are you suggest OSB only said it because he hates wasps and wants to scaremongering???

Get your head out of your arse, just because someone says something bad about wasps or the probable negative affect wasps will have on us, doesn't mean it's come from hatred.its just a lazy argument.

This will become a bigger issue in 10-15 years time, the city has changed massively in the last 10 years, with the economic migrants and newly arrived communities, who are also having babies at higher rate. These communities don't go to the football, or wasps, so the pool of Coventry customers is getting smaller. So competition for customers in Coventry and Warwickshire is going to become more fierce.

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Does this not make the decision to sell to wasps by the council even worse than it was? If the ricoh is bringing in more revenue and allowing the squad to be improved. Stupot is right. Wasps are competition. They didn't buy a 32000 seater stadium to have it half full. Long term they will want to sell out as much as possible. Coventry isn't a wealthy city. People's disposable income is small. Most won't be able to afford both. It's realism. The club needs promotion. Would of been nice to have won jpt too. Would of increased interest. In the meantime as ccfc fans all we can do is to continue to support the team. Try to encourage family and friends to join us. Try and get youngsters interested. It's our club. We can help to make it great again.

The area is big enough to have 2 big teams at the Ricoh.
We (CCFC) need to get in the Championship/PL and the crowds will come back regardless of Wasps.

I think it is more a matter of joining up the dots we know about. Long term Wasps could very well be a threat to CCFC's well being, and I am not saying that is their aim at all. It doesn't have to be that way but that will require from CCFC time effort, commitment and above all funding to change the outcome ....... and the one thing I doubt at the moment is the financial commitment.

There is a battle for hearts and minds of the kids going on but also for football vs rugby and for general sports fans. There is also a battle for the Corporate £ and Wasps are way ahead in that. It is all key to future income streams

SBITC do a great job as do the JSB's and the schools initiative. The first is significantly funded including some funding from CCC, the club itself provides for the Charity in kind only with some facilities and some match tickets( but not much it seems to me). The other two are basically done on a shoestring. Part of the attraction for kids is seeing their team win, but also it is the experience on the day and how that is followed up. Do the kids feel special to the club, do the fans? Things like visits to schools and xmas parties help. But also the atmosphere at the game has an effect - great whilst the team are winning but can be very different on a losing streak. The club struggles to fund the squad, in fact we are told we no longer break even, so they wont be spending much on anything else

Wasps. The atmosphere at rugby games are different certainly - the aggression is nearly always on the pitch not in the stands. They are visiting schools, inviting them to come to games, to training, and stuff like that will continue. When they get to games there are flags even wigs to be had free, there is fun and games in the halls, including face painting, there is music stuff going on the screens and side of pitches, they are invited in to the experience. On top of that Wasps are putting significant funding in to attracting the youngsters. Games like the Leicester one with a large crowd can create a sense of awe for youngsters and for many it is about being treated to an experience then the hook is set. As much as dad might be a football fan kids go for what they enjoy most and make their mind up later

The contrast I am making is to illustrate how far behind CCFC are in this attraction contest - and that's without factoring in the standard of play and consistency of good results. CCFC can not hide behind rugby is a minority sport - it may be different but Wasps get 2.5 times the ticket income CCFC gets per game, CCFC attendances are going to need to improve a lot even just to match it in the current ticket structures

Could the area support two teams yes probably but could the area support two teams equally at present I am not so certain. We only have to get up to the Championship or better still the Premier League is the solution put forward. Well that takes investment not just extra income streams and few can see that happening. Yes the kids and fans would love the success and yes that would increase the crowd BUT our recent history really doesn't point to that happening and if it did could it be sustained in the current set up - I am not optimistic. Oh and if we fail at a higher level the effect on attendances and income would be? (no I am not saying we shouldn't fight to go up )

The difference is that Wasps have a plan for this, they seem to understand what needs to be done, target it and fund it, CCFC relies on well meaning hard working volunteers giving all they can (they do a great job but....)

CCFC are here, always have been, and like many clubs have an expectation of fans support. In the past fans were taken for granted, the move to Sixfields caused damage that will take years to repair, the connection for many was almost broken. That can be rebuilt but only on the back of success - and like it or not that requires proper funding. Contrast that with Wasps. Yes they, in the eyes of many, dumped from a great height on their London based fans but Wasps have known from the start that they must forge connections, be part of the community, invite people in and hook them and have been following through on that, have been prepared to significantly fund it.

Also Wasps are looking further afield than Coventry for their supporters. They are looking to Warwickshire and the West Midlands plus any London supporters they can retain. It wont happen over night. CCFC catchment area is predominately Coventry with a good influx from Warwickshire.

Every thing that Wasps do is aimed are spreading and reducing perceived risk, That includes the battle for supporters money. CCFC have difficulty committing to a plan forward and funding it adequately. Now they have serious competition, are starting from a bad place and under funded, inconsistent in the third league with very little glitz

Yes I am still worried about the future of CCFC and its ability to retain any fans it succeeds in attracting in the near future, concerned about the clubs ability to compete for the Coventry £

Wasps are attracting fans from effectively a brand new start, are succeeding on and off the pitch, are prepared to spend significant sums ......

It may all change I might be completely wrong of course................

I am still concerned and people sitting back and thinking it will all be alright if we get promoted isn't going to help unless there is a plan and funding to follow it through - and sorry but I see very little evidence of that for CCFC

italiahorse said:

The area is big enough to have 2 big teams at the Ricoh.
We (CCFC) need to get in the Championship/PL and the crowds will come back regardless of Wasps.

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What was our average Premiership crowd? There is no evidence to support your claims.

Wasps are spending money because there not from here. CCFC nor CRFC spend or have spent the sums Wasps are because they are from here. For want of a better phrase there buying supporters. As for funding, maybe if we weren't charged an extornionate rent for years and had our stadium sold between us, maybe there would be funding. Maybe there would be more of a long term plan. Certainly wouldn't be facing a possible battle for the next generation of fans. Also regarding the funding, it is in part to having the stadium and then using it to sell the bonds. Something most CCFC fans were adamant SISU would do and didn't want to happen. Now Wasps are here and have done that and it's hailed as great business acumen. This is not me criticising you OSB58, just my perspective based on what you have said.

SkyBlueZack said:

Wasps are spending money because there not from here. CCFC nor CRFC spend or have spent the sums Wasps are because they are from here. For want of a better phrase there buying supporters. As for funding, maybe if we weren't charged an extornionate rent for years and had our stadium sold between us, maybe there would be funding. Maybe there would be more of a long term plan. Certainly wouldn't be facing a possible battle for the next generation of fans. Also regarding the funding, it is in part to having the stadium and then using it to sell the bonds. Something most CCFC fans were adamant SISU would do and didn't want to happen. Now Wasps are here and have done that and it's hailed as great business acumen. This is not me criticising you OSB58, just my perspective based on what you have said.

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https://www.change.org/p/coventry-c...itol-to-purchase-any-stake-in-the-ricoh-arena

The old "Dont sell to SISU because they will mortgage it up" soon stopped

A stadium part funded by the citizens of Coventry should never be turned over to a London hedge fund with the sole ambition of mortgaging their stake to raise capital for their other investments outside of the city of Coventry..Their behaviour over the last few years with statements that are dubious to say the very least along with the asset stripping of CCFC shows they are unfit to be associated with such a prestigous asset.

This is taken from that link. I know it's hindsight but never turned over to a London hedge fund. Yet a london rugby club with a maltese based hedge fund? Sure!!! Why not?!?!

Just another thought, slightly off topic but people have always claimed SISU would strip the club and leave nothing left. Yet their reputation is for stripping and turning a failing business round. Cutting costs and increasing incomes. Similar to what they have done recently in the sense of cost cutting and trying to acquire the stadium. Did people think they would just sell everything and turn off the lights? Not quite sure what the massive issue was apart from they weren't investing in the squad as much as fans wanted or demanded. Which for me is the issue/problem. No matter who the owners are if they don't seem/appear to be investing at levels adequate to fans then they will be disliked and wanted out. Not saying SISU haven't made mistakes, they have. Loads of them. Just that Richardson chased the dream and spent, spent and spent some more to which fans had no problem with at the time. It is in part the reason we are where we are.

SkyBlueZack said:

Wasps are spending money because there not from here. CCFC nor CRFC spend or have spent the sums Wasps are because they are from here. For want of a better phrase there buying supporters. As for funding, maybe if we weren't charged an extornionate rent for years and had our stadium sold between us, maybe there would be funding. Maybe there would be more of a long term plan. Certainly wouldn't be facing a possible battle for the next generation of fans. Also regarding the funding, it is in part to having the stadium and then using it to sell the bonds. Something most CCFC fans were adamant SISU would do and didn't want to happen. Now Wasps are here and have done that and it's hailed as great business acumen. This is not me criticising you OSB58, just my perspective based on what you have said.

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no worries zack

Of course Wasps are spending money effort etc because they landed themselves here with no connection. As far as CCFC & CRFC are concerned I would argue that they have been complacent about the fans always being here - to my mind this is not unusual, many clubs do just that and unless a new competitor lands in the area then nothing changes. Is that the right way for the custodians of OUR club to treat its customers US? Wouldn't be like that in any other industry or sector for very long.

Complacency and ego have been a factor at CCFC for decades. That has bitten us just as much as the high rent but not nearly as much as the piss poor management of the club finances on and off the pitch

Whilst the rent was too high, the total rent (including Ricoh, Higgs and other ad hoc sites) accounts for something like 10% of the losses. The biggest cost was the wage bill which at one point hit a staggering 120% of turnover - that cost was very much within the control of the directors. Even now it seems the club cannot stick to a budget and are short of 1500+ people (or over £10k) per game of breaking even with a rent of less than £5k per game.

They had 7 years to put a deal together and never made an acceptable offer (yes I know there may have been other issues). I don't like Wasps being here but they put their money where their mouth is and obviously had a clear plan. We cant even locate a suitable piece of land to build on - seems other sports can in the Coventry area.

What I am saying is that whilst the rent contributed the only people who can make decisions for CCFC are its directors/owners - that's the uncomfortable truth. It is not conveniently everybody else's fault

Football never has been good at long term plans and we have been and are no different. In that respect there is a lot of pressure put on the clubs and directors egos by the fans to achieve instant success

As for the loan by Wasps. They raised 34m. £3m has net yet been drawn down. 27m (CCC & Richardson & close brothers) exchanged one debt for another £4m they spent on enhancing the site. Am I keen on hocking the family jewels no - do I trust Wasps or SISU no reason to but only one of those has really given me reasons not to trust them and that's CCFC's owners. It is because of those reasons I would be uneasy with SISU mortgaging the stadium but the bottom line is many businesses do exactly that with their property - I couldn't stop either doing it. However SISU never really detailed any plans forward did they regarding finances, set up, how the arrangement with AIG would work etc

The clever bit with the loans btw is that it isn't all with one bank or institution it is spread and the world and its dog can monitor their risk bi annually and by the market price.