Wasps rescued again (1 Viewer)

Magwitch · Nov 19, 2020

fatso said:
Why is it disgraceful?
There are premier league players on over £350k a week. Do you REALLY expect the government to give tax payers money to the football league, when they have been so negligent with the games financial distribution.
The premier league is pissed up with money, while the grass roots is struggling to survive, that’s not a fault of the Government or the pandemic, it’s due to gross incompetence from the games authorities.

That’s the point I’m trying to make but there are those on here incapable or lack the intellect to have a sensible conservation.

This thread has happened because it looks like Wasps are going to get a few bob. What they get if I’ve read things properly will hardly scratch the surface of their apparent debts. although we are as yet not getting anything this might be a nudge in the ribs and be a spring board for the premier clubs to dig a bit deeper and help EFL clubs, better they do it themselves than tempting the Government to act, they have threatened to so a number of times.

hill83 · Nov 19, 2020

Magwitch said:
Do you want a fight

Wheatsheaf

rob9872 · Nov 19, 2020

fatso said:
Why is it disgraceful?
There are premier league players on over £350k a week. Do you REALLY expect the government to give tax payers money to the football league, when they have been so negligent with the games financial distribution.
The premier league is pissed up with money, while the grass roots is struggling to survive, that’s not a fault of the Government or the pandemic, it’s due to gross incompetence from the games authorities.

Of which he contributes £175k in taxes every week. If he wasn't paid it, then it sits away from our economy in the Glaziers account in America. Which do you prefer?

Grendel · Nov 19, 2020

Frostie said:
£59m to Premiership rugby clubs, that's just shy of £5m each. I'd call that fairly substantial.

Not when many are over £50 million in debt

Grendel · Nov 19, 2020

shmmeee said:
Not to say I told you so, but I have been saying that this government wouldn’t let major rugby clubs go to the wall when people have been fantasising about some state aid remedy bankrupting them.

Their position seems to be “men’s football is popular so the rich can give charity to the poor, everything else is unpopular so we’ll help”

I don’t see how that money is anywhere near enough to Stop clubs going to the wall

Isn’t the wasps groups turnover something like £20 million. Also wages are more than that a year and players I doubt will be keen on continuing to have a wage reduction

I guess the big issue is rugby seems to get much higher infection rates and there is an issue they may not even be able to play for months. Also clubs are losing I think TV money as the contract rights are up for renewal

Brighton Sky Blue · Nov 19, 2020

peaches and cream said:
it is what it is

So is having the polar opposite for years

shmmeee · Nov 19, 2020

rob9872 said:
Taxation pays for all of the services that would otherwise need to be privatised. Since most owners are foreign and most sponsorship money is from overseas that pay their wages, then that shortfall would need to be recovered. It boosts the economy since it also covers public sector wages who then spend that 'foreign' money in the UK. The point is they already pay their share into our pot and do so fairly, not like Amazon or Starbucks or similar and I see no reason they should prop up the mismanagement of overspending Derby or Cardiff or whoever, but equally their position has been adversely affected by the current situation. Clubs could go to the wall and I think the govt has a responsibility to communities to keep that going (bloody hell sounds like me a leftie and you a tory on this!). They will get the money back in time from income tax so for goodwill factor then they should imo prop up the EFL (providing its fair and all participants receive equal amounts and not means tested).

Quite literally, in the GDP calculations, tax subtracts from the total size of the economy. Conceptually tax is for taking money out of circulation to curb behaviour or reduce inflation. (Interestingly historically taxes are there to give a currency value, no point in giving our useless money so demand taxes back). Taxes do not pay for spending and never have. That’s a fairy tale told to people about why we can’t spend.

The amount of tax someone pays in bears no relation to what they should receive. Even a moments thought shows this as a nonsense: why tax at all if it worked like you think? It’d be a zero sum game. It’s not a piggy bank for a rainy day like national insurance (in theory) it’s a curb on excess/undesirable economic activity.

Regardless the point from the government is that there is money in football even if it’s not evenly shared around. I have some sympathy with that point. Football taken as a whole has enough money to weather the storm. EPL clubs are where they are in large part because of the strength of the EFL clubs below them and should be made to redistribute that cash IMO. Any bail out would let them off the hook at a time where there’s significant pressure to change the funding model.

Politically footballers are well known for being overpaid (unlike women’s footballers or rugby players) so handing them cash would look terrible to a lot of the public as well. I can see why they’re reluctant.

shmmeee · Nov 19, 2020

Grendel said:
I don’t see how that money is anywhere near enough to Stop clubs going to the wall

Isn’t the wasps groups turnover something like £20 million. Also wages are more than that a year and players I doubt will be keen on continuing to have a wage reduction

I guess the big issue is rugby seems to get much higher infection rates and there is an issue they may not even be able to play for months. Also clubs are losing I think TV money as the contract rights are up for renewal

It wasn’t about Wasps generally more the closeness of the rugby lobby to the Tory Party means if they had to take an action that killed off a club (like set a large state aid penalty) they probably wouldn’t.

Skyblue_LDN · Nov 19, 2020

Politics aside if it helps companies/teams stay afloat and pay staff it’s a good thing. I try to avoid too much news since lockdown as the numbers get depressing, but I believe football rejected their care package and are still negotiating. I’m not a wasps fan but if it helps people put food on the table of their staff it is surely a good thing

Tommo1993 · Nov 19, 2020

CCFC88 said:
Their business model is still far from fixed, all these handouts are just allowing them to kick the can down the road

Correct. This is not a bottomless pit.

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 19, 2020

This is also helping CRFC of course.

Grendel · Nov 19, 2020

shmmeee said:
It wasn’t about Wasps generally more the closeness of the rugby lobby to the Tory Party means if they had to take an action that killed off a club (like set a large state aid penalty) they probably wouldn’t.

It’s also interest bearing loans it’s hardly a panacea

shmmeee · Nov 19, 2020

Grendel said:
It’s also interest bearing loans it’s hardly a panacea

Honestly the only interaction I have with Wasps finances is on here and it’s been about four years of “they’re definitely going bust any second” so I’ve just switched off. Generally I don’t think politically it’s easy to let a club with that history disappear and generally in sports someone always seems to swoop in. I don’t hold that thought particularly preciously though.

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 19, 2020

shmmeee said:
Honestly the only interaction I have with Wasps finances is on here and it’s been about four years of “they’re definitely going bust any second” so I’ve just switched off. Generally I don’t think politically it’s easy to let a club with that history disappear and generally in sports someone always seems to swoop in. I don’t hold that thought particularly preciously though.

Well... Richmond, Orrell etc went to the wall. Tbh a history for Wasps could be maintained elegantly by the amateur side picking up the pieces.

It's more that the national sides are quite good and popular, and draw their players from a 'successful' club game that's the political incentive, I'd say. Wasps are collateral beneficiaries to that.

shmmeee · Nov 19, 2020

Deleted member 5849 said:
Well... Richmond, Orrell etc went to the wall. Tbh a history for Wasps could be maintained elegantly by the amateur side picking up the pieces.

It's more that the national sides are quite good and popular, and draw their players from a 'successful' club game that's the political incentive, I'd say. Wasps are collateral beneficiaries.

Like I say it’s a gut call based mostly on how much salt is needed when their demise is greatly exaggerated on here and a general feeling about sport. I know nothing of the ways of egg chasing and I intend to keep it that way. The whole “celebrate people losing a club and a job” thing generally doesn’t sit right with me either.

None of that says it won’t happen though.

jordan210 · Nov 19, 2020

Saddlebrains · Nov 19, 2020

jordan210 said:

That reads worringly to me. Quite vociferous. Maybe we arent as ok financially as a club as we think we are

BornSlippySkyBlue · Nov 19, 2020

shmmeee said:
EPL clubs are where they are in large part because of the strength of the EFL clubs below them and should be made to redistribute that cash IMO. Any bail out would let them off the hook at a time where there’s significant pressure to change the funding model.

This this this. Which is why comparisons with Amazon are flawed. Amazon (and more generally capitalism) is all about driving your competitors out of business, which is why we need to have laws to stop it from happening. If Liverpool were to drive all their competitors out of business they’d have no ‘product’ left to sell, as opposed to the monopoly that Amazon would enjoy. The EPL benefits from the presence of the rest of the league structure, they use us to improve their players (who are then worth more) via the loan system, they use us to procure any talent that their vast academies let through and, through relegation / promotion, it keeps the EPL interesting to the vast majority of clubs who will never in a million years win it. Imagine how tedious it would get watching your team get battered every season forevermore. At least with relegation most games have some ‘meaning’ up to the end of the season. Some of our best followings have been in relegation battles.

Problem we’ve got is getting them to share more fairly without sneaking in loads of conditions that ultimately weaken the lower league clubs’ power and consolidate it all in the hands of 6 clubs.

Magwitch · Nov 19, 2020

Saddlebrains said:
That reads worringly to me. Quite vociferous. Maybe we arent as ok financially as a club as we think we are

Hard to justify bellyache about a ropey finance situation when our owners have moved us out of Coventry which reduced our gate receipts by over 50%.

chiefdave · Nov 19, 2020

BornSlippySkyBlue said:
This this this. Which is why comparisons with Amazon are flawed. Amazon (and more generally capitalism) is all about driving your competitors out of business, which is why we need to have laws to stop it from happening. If Liverpool were to drive all their competitors out of business they’d have no ‘product’ left to sell, as opposed to the monopoly that Amazon would enjoy. The EPL benefits from the presence of the rest of the league structure, they use us to improve their players (who are then worth more) via the loan system, they use us to procure any talent that their vast academies let through and, through relegation / promotion, it keeps the EPL interesting to the vast majority of clubs who will never in a million years win it. Imagine how tedious it would get watching your team get battered every season forevermore. At least with relegation most games have some ‘meaning’ up to the end of the season. Some of our best followings have been in relegation battles.

Do you really see clubs like Tranmere as competitors to the likes of Liverpool? Wouldn't they more accurately be a supplier, they produce players, a product purchased by the PL clubs and essential to their ongoing operation.

To use the Amazon analogy how would their sales be if their suppliers couldn't provide them with product anymore?

In any case its something of a moot point as some of the leagues awarded funding have said the amount they have been awarded is based on lost ticket revenue due to government restrictions being in place. Would like to see someone make an argument that EFL clubs not being allowed to let anyone in hasn't impacted revenues.

Terry Gibson's perm · Nov 19, 2020

There will be rugby players earning more than some of our players yet that seems to get forgotten as football is an easy one to attack.

Terry Gibson's perm · Nov 19, 2020

chiefdave said:
Do you really see clubs like Tranmere as competitors to the likes of Liverpool? Wouldn't they more accurately be a supplier, they produce players, a product purchased by the PL clubs and essential to their ongoing operation.

To use the Amazon analogy how would their sales be if their suppliers couldn't provide them with product anymore?

In any case its something of a moot point as some of the leagues awarded funding have said the amount they have been awarded is based on lost ticket revenue due to government restrictions being in place. Would like to see someone make an argument that EFL clubs not being allowed to let anyone in hasn't impacted revenues.

I think football at the top end should see Rugby as a competitor and try to destroy it.

BornSlippySkyBlue · Nov 19, 2020

chiefdave said:
Do you really see clubs like Tranmere as competitors to the likes of Liverpool? Wouldn't they more accurately be a supplier, they produce players, a product purchased by the PL clubs and essential to their ongoing operation.

To use the Amazon analogy how would their sales be if their suppliers couldn't provide them with product anymore?

In any case its something of a moot point as some of the leagues awarded funding have said the amount they have been awarded is based on lost ticket revenue due to government restrictions being in place. Would like to see someone make an argument that EFL clubs not being allowed to let anyone in hasn't impacted revenues.

No, not direct competitors, I agree — more like suppliers. You can imagine a scenario where a business would support its suppliers to protect its own interests though, no? It’s a different relationship than say, Amazon -> eBay and I can’t think of any scenario whereby they would help each other out. As Boddy says, the Prem already give a significant chunk to the lower leagues, I’d guess they don’t do that purely our of the goodness of their hearts.

robbiethemole · Nov 19, 2020

fuck wasps and everything/everyone to do with them.

Grendel · Nov 19, 2020

shmmeee said:
Honestly the only interaction I have with Wasps finances is on here and it’s been about four years of “they’re definitely going bust any second” so I’ve just switched off. Generally I don’t think politically it’s easy to let a club with that history disappear and generally in sports someone always seems to swoop in. I don’t hold that thought particularly preciously though.

Kent Wasp is some kind of finance guy and posts regularly on their forum. He’s opinion is it’s a matter of when and not if they go bust unless they move the club away from the Ricoh

Terry Gibson's perm · Nov 19, 2020

Grendel said:
Kent Wasp is some kind of finance guy and posts regularly on their forum. He’s opinion is it’s a matter of when and not if they go bust unless they move the club away from the Ricoh

I bet he is popular on there then, they probably say his is a City fan.

fernandopartridge · Nov 19, 2020

rob9872 said:
Taxation pays for all of the services that would otherwise need to be privatised. Since most owners are foreign and most sponsorship money is from overseas that pay their wages, then that shortfall would need to be recovered. It boosts the economy since it also covers public sector wages who then spend that 'foreign' money in the UK. The point is they already pay their share into our pot and do so fairly, not like Amazon or Starbucks or similar and I see no reason they should prop up the mismanagement of overspending Derby or Cardiff or whoever, but equally their position has been adversely affected by the current situation. Clubs could go to the wall and I think the govt has a responsibility to communities to keep that going (bloody hell sounds like me a leftie and you a tory on this!). They will get the money back in time from income tax so for goodwill factor then they should imo prop up the EFL (providing its fair and all participants receive equal amounts and not means tested).

Taxation doesn't fund public spending, complete myth

rob9872 · Nov 19, 2020

fernandopartridge said:
Taxation doesn't fund public spending, complete myth

No it comes from the magic fairy tree.

How else do they generate their pot? Wheter its income, corporation, NI, vat etc etc of course it pays for services.

fernandopartridge · Nov 19, 2020

rob9872 said:
No it comes from the magic fairy tree.

How else do they generate their pot? Wheter its income, corporation, NI, vat etc etc of course it pays for services.

Where did the £300bn come from to pay for furlough oh clever one

Grendel · Nov 19, 2020

fernandopartridge said:
Where did the £300bn come from to pay for furlough oh clever one

loans and printing money

Magwitch · Nov 19, 2020

Grendel said:
loans and printing money

Correct and it will all be repaid.

Grendel · Nov 19, 2020

Magwitch said:
Correct and it will all be repaid.

But apparently we can live as well in a tax free utopia as taxation does not fund the benefit system. To be fair it’s Trump utopia and I’m all for it.

Brighton Sky Blue · Nov 19, 2020

Magwitch said:
Hard to justify bellyache about a ropey finance situation when our owners have moved us out of Coventry which reduced our gate receipts by over 50%.

Firstly everyone’s gate receipts have been £0 since March. Secondly the exile isn’t entirely self imposed as the first one was. We’re being told there’s no more room at the inn and unlike our insect overlords the only ones doing us a favour are tomorrow’s opponents.

rob9872 · Nov 19, 2020

fernandopartridge said:
Where did the £300bn come from to pay for furlough oh clever one

From your kids and grandkids who will have to repay it.

Brighton Sky Blue · Nov 19, 2020

rob9872 said:
From your kids and grandkids who will have to repay it.

We only paid off our Napoleonic war debt in this century, I don’t hold that against my 7 x great grandparents

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