We can't afford to be a Championship club? (1 Viewer)

skybluetony176 · Aug 12, 2015

The one thing that Bournemouth does show you is that if you have the right manager pumping in money isn't an issue because it pays off.

Who would argue that we don't have the right manager? He's worth backing IMO. Will SISU do that? It's not looking promising. They do have a history of backing the wrong man after all. So it would be surprising if they backed the right man.

steveecov · Aug 12, 2015

In reply to the thread and sticking with the realism of sensible spending, we cannot afford NOT to be in the Championship

Grendel · Aug 12, 2015

Astute said:
How much was pumped in then? What player was on 39k a week?

And have you changed your mind on Leon Clarke yet? 3 goals in 2 games. I suppose we didn't have that charity bet.

The Russian chairman invested massively - they were the biggest spenders in league one in their promotion season and have spent far more than their natural income in the championship.

Kenwyn Jones is the £39 k per week they agreed to pay all his wages to secure promotion.

Yes the bet is still on but his first "goal" sums up where that's going to go.

torchomatic · Aug 12, 2015

Eh? That doesn't make sense as by your own admission they have hired the RIGHT man in the first place. I would certainly say so far he has been backed and the performance on Saturday showed just that.

skybluetony176 said:
The one thing that Bournemouth does show you is that if you have the right manager pumping in money isn't an issue because it pays off.

Who would argue that we don't have the right manager? He's worth backing IMO. Will SISU do that? It's not looking promising. They do have a history of backing the wrong man after all. So it would be surprising if they backed the right man.

Grendel · Aug 12, 2015

Astute said:
How about like for like. You say who they signed but only since they reached the Prem. And they will get multiples of what they have spent just for reaching the Prem. And the Russian will now still be in profit.

So for the proper figures. Last season they sold Grabban for 3m. They bought Wilson for 3m and Surman undisclosed. All the others were for free. Yet I am supposed to believe that they pumped unlimited millions in. Yes he made a loss until they made it. VBut the losses were less than SISU lost.

They lost over £15 million the year they got promoted. If they hadn't got promoted and the benefactor wasn't prepared to pump more millions in they'd have been in severe financial difficulties.

Chipfat · Aug 12, 2015

What is the alternative other than promotion,, years of staying in middle of L1? no thanks....As a club you have to set up to progress, otherwise what the point, fans live in hope for better days.... Let's just say,, a club made a statement saying,, we are running the club as a business and us the owners will be taking a wage for the next 25 years, without any thought of promotion or progression into a higer level,, would you as fans go??? Would you bollocks,, this club can't afford to be settling for staying in this division,, we have to move forward and build slowly and properly,, but with hope and a chance of progression..

Now if we are talking about us,, SISU in my eyes have no ambition to step up,, they are placing no money into progression only on hope that TM can perform a miracle.. That is not good enough for this club or fans,, we need a model like swansea, stoke or west brom,, we are not right off the field to do this.. That is the problem, if you cant get it right off it you are not going to get it right on it,, and that is a fact..

fernandopartridge · Aug 12, 2015

Chipfat said:
What is the alternative other than promotion,, years of staying in middle of L1? no thanks....As a club you have to set up to progress, otherwise what the point, fans live in hope for better days.... Let's just say,, a club made a statement saying,, we are running the club as a business and us the owners will be taking a wage for the next 25 years, without any thought of promotion or progression into a higer level,, would you as fans go??? Would you bollocks,, this club can't afford to be settling for staying in this division,, we have to move forward and build slowly and properly,, but with hope and a chance of progression..

Now if we are talking about us,, SISU in my eyes have no ambition to step up,, they are placing no money into progression only on hope that TM can perform a miracle.. That is not good enough for this club or fans,, we need a model like swansea, stoke or west brom,, we are not right off the field to do this.. That is the problem, if you cant get it right off it you are not going to get it right on it,, and that is a fact..

Please explain what the 'model' is that those 3 clubs follow. It might explain some of your other empty statements.

hill83 · Aug 12, 2015

I've got tenner and a £125 sainsburys voucher ready to invest. Who else is willing to put their money where their mouth is?

Chipfat · Aug 12, 2015

fernandopartridge said:
Please explain what the 'model' is that those 3 clubs follow. It might explain some of your other empty statements.

What are empty statements!! are Swansea, West Brom and Stoke not in a better position on and off the field!!!! and did they not do it in a proper manner,, improving academies,, training facilities and income streams... If yo u are remarking about Sisu not having ambition, well 8 years of no plans, going backwards and lack of investment, im not sure they are empty or not factual..

Or do you think we are forward thinking,, building good foudations and looking for promotion off the field.... FFS they didn't have a traning facility that had new paint or pictures on the wall... No scouting system is no way to build the club,, they fell on maddison and Wilson,, as for Bigi,, he was told to leave Higgs for a whole week before thm giving him a go and these two potentially 3 will and have funded the club...In my opinion the club is not built to suceed more to survive...

stupot07 · Aug 12, 2015

Astute said:
Bournemouth have a ground that only holds 11.5k They did not have unlimited funds pumped in. They spent wisely. And they found a club to sell a good striker to them cheaply even if some of their supporters tried to say it was a good deal for the selling club. The selling club didn't even spend 1p of what they received to try and replace him. Now these same people will tell you that we would be in trouble if we reached the Championship. Not if we could find a club that would sell us a star striker for not a lot of money.

They lost £15m in one season getting out of league one and £10m in their first season in the championship. I would think it highly likely they made more losses in their promotion winning season, probably not far off the £15m I'd guess with investing more in players, natural annual wage increase and bonus payments.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/32611521

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Grendel · Aug 12, 2015

stupot07 said:
They lost £15m in one season getting out of league one and £10m in their first season in the championship. I would think it highly likely they made more losses in their promotion winning season, probably not far off the £15m I'd guess with investing more in players, natural annual wage increase and bonus payments.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/32611521

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I think he's left the building

stupot07 · Aug 12, 2015

No one is saying we shouldn't try or want to get promoted. What they are saying (as verified by CT independent expert) that without 100% matchday revenue, or access to 365 revenues or a rich billionaire pumping millions into the club, the club will struggle to compete in the championship.

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skybluetony176 · Aug 12, 2015

torchomatic said:
Eh? That doesn't make sense as by your own admission they have hired the RIGHT man in the first place. I would certainly say so far he has been backed and the performance on Saturday showed just that.

I'm talking in the context of the OP i.e. if we go up. I think its been made pretty clear that if we go our owners are unlikely to invest any money. So we'll have the right manager but no investment from the owners. Unlike when we clearly had the wrong manager's while in the championship and they were throwing money at them.

To save sickboy the trouble of twisting my words I'd just like to point out that if we do go up and our owners do put their investors money in I'd be delighted and not hoping they don't so we fail.

Grendel · Aug 12, 2015

skybluetony176 said:
I'm talking in the context of the OP i.e. if we go up. I think its been made pretty clear that if we go our owners are unlikely to invest any money. So we'll have the right manager but no investment from the owners. Unlike when we clearly had the wrong manager's while in the championship and they were throwing money at them.

For save sickboy the trouble of twisting my words I'd just like to point out that if we do go up and our owners do put their investors money in I'd be delighted and not hoping they don't so we fail.

So you'd like a further £25 million added to our debt mountain as per Bournmouth?

skybluetony176 · Aug 12, 2015

Grendel said:
So you'd like a further £25 million added to our debt mountain as per Bournmouth?

I guess I should have put a clause in for you as well as sickboy because I clearly didn't say that.

What I'd like to see SISU's investors do is top up (if needed) a budget that TM feels we need should we get promoted that will help us retain championship status with a view to building on that. Rather than add to our debt mountain I would suggest that maintaining championship status and the extra revenue that would secure would actually give us a better chance of starting to pay down that debt mountain. Certainly more chance than staying in league one anyway.

skybluebeduff · Aug 12, 2015

Grendel said:
So you'd like a further £25 million added to our debt mountain as per Bournmouth?

To earn it back by gaining promotion to the premier league? who wouldn't? £100mill waiting to be deposited once you get there.

Astute · Aug 12, 2015

Grendel said:
So you'd like a further £25 million added to our debt mountain as per Bournmouth?

Why is it that some like to ignore the facts and bang on about what they are saying even with the lack of facts?

Bournemouth have a stadium that holds 11.5k that they rent. Their income is limited much more than ours is. They are now in the Prem but will only be able to have less than we had 2 divisions lower last week. So yes they made a big loss. But you don't want to mention why their income was much lower. Someone else tried to say that they spent 22m on signings getting promoted when it was spent after getting promoted.

We are not in the shit if we get promoted. What is needed is an astute manager. And we have one. It is said that it is worth 5m to get promoted. Then our income would be much higher. But no. Anyone that can see sense is wrong I suppose.

Grendel · Aug 12, 2015

Astute said:
Why is it that some like to ignore the facts and bang on about what they are saying even with the lack of facts?

Bournemouth have a stadium that holds 11.5k that they rent. Their income is limited much more than ours is. They are now in the Prem but will only be able to have less than we had 2 divisions lower last week. So yes they made a big loss. But you don't want to mention why their income was much lower. Someone else tried to say that they spent 22m on signings getting promoted when it was spent after getting promoted.

We are not in the shit if we get promoted. What is needed is an astute manager. And we have one. It is said that it is worth 5m to get promoted. Then our income would be much higher. But no. Anyone that can see sense is wrong I suppose.

Are you sure their income - including loans was lower than ours in League One?

Do you have any evidence?

rupert_bear · Aug 12, 2015

If we got to the championship Mowbray would recruit in a similar way he has this, free agents, loans, bargain basement signings, wages would be higher but so would income, budget would have to increase as much as double. I think TV money alone is around £4million

Astute · Aug 12, 2015

Grendel said:
Are you sure their income - including loans was lower than ours in League One?

Do you have any evidence?

1, Since when has a loan been income?

2, Where did I say they had less income than us?

I said that their income was a lot more limited than ours. Their ground holds 11.5k. Ours holds three times theirs. So when they were at our level what was their income? If we were now in the Prem who would have the biggest income? And if you want to carry on with your stupid comments and say theirs would be the most would you like to come out with the evidence for once?

letsallsingtogether · Aug 12, 2015

Grendel said:
Are you sure their income - including loans was lower than ours in League One?

Do you have any evidence?

The thing that's get me is that some of or fans are happy to stay in this shit league.

It should read can we afford to stay in this league for much longer?

Problem the longer we stay the smaller our attendances will get.

Yet your only defence as usual is to ask for proof with out ever giving any your self?
To show that they actually care for this club and to get fans of onside,our owners need to give us some success to shout about.
Sorry but mediocre football will end up killing this club.
PUSB...

stupot07 · Aug 12, 2015

Astute said:
1, Since when has a loan been income?

2, Where did I say they had less income than us?

I said that their income was a lot more limited than ours. Their ground holds 11.5k. Ours holds three times theirs. So when they were at our level what was their income? If we were now in the Prem who would have the biggest income? And if you want to carry on with your stupid comments and say theirs would be the most would you like to come out with the evidence for once?

It will be interesting to see their accounts to see exactly how much they spent last season.

However the season before (2013/14) their turnover was £10.1m average attendance 9,114 and finished 10th. They had a wage bill of £17m and made over £10m losses.

quite interesting really, the season we got relegated our turnover was a mere £700k more despite averaging 6k more fans.

To me that shows how limiting a rental deal with limited access to revenues is.

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stupot07 · Aug 12, 2015

letsallsingtogether said:
The thing that's get me is that some of or fans are happy to stay in this shit league.

It should read can we afford to stay in this league for much longer?

Problem the longer we stay the smaller our attendances will get.

Yet your only defence as usual is to ask for proof with out ever giving any your self?
To show that they actually care for this club and to get fans of onside,our owners need to give us some success to shout about.
Sorry but mediocre football will end up killing this club.
PUSB...

NO ONE WANTS TO STAY IN THIS SHIT LEAGUE.

However, we have to accept that when we get promoted, we are likely to be in for a bit of a struggle.

The last point is just odd.

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Grendel · Aug 12, 2015

Astute said:
1, Since when has a loan been income?

2, Where did I say they had less income than us?

I said that their income was a lot more limited than ours. Their ground holds 11.5k. Ours holds three times theirs. So when they were at our level what was their income? If we were now in the Prem who would have the biggest income? And if you want to carry on with your stupid comments and say theirs would be the most would you like to come out with the evidence for once?

Loans transferred into equity are.

You say evidence yet all you do is make random statements and try and say they are facts. Chief Dave and Osb have presented the facts which you ignore

Here is some facts for you. Our crowd in the last championship season averaged 15,000 and yet our turnover was one of the bottom 6. Our wage bill was consequently one of the lowest also.

Bournemouth with their 11,000 ground had a wage bill of £17 million.

In the premiere league the answer as to who would get the most money is impossible without knowing league positions. It's also irrelevant.

When you said that Bournemouth were an example of a small club doing well with a good manager you hadn't a clue the owner had banged £25 million into them did you? Just admit for once you got it wrong.

chiefdave · Aug 12, 2015

skybluebeduff said:
To earn it back by gaining promotion to the premier league? who wouldn't? £100mill waiting to be deposited once you get there.

And there's the problem, every team is trying to do the same thing and not every team will succeed. Therefore a lot of clubs end up with nothing but a load of debt.

Astute said:
Bournemouth have a stadium that holds 11.5k that they rent. Their income is limited much more than ours is.

Bournemouth pay less than £400K a year and get all revenues from the stadium. They have also said if the owner refuses to sell the stadium to them at a fair price, I believe they bid under £5m, they would look to move elsewhere as renting the ground is not a workable long term plan.

Astute said:
We are not in the shit if we get promoted. What is needed is an astute manager. And we have one. It is said that it is worth 5m to get promoted. Then our income would be much higher. But no. Anyone that can see sense is wrong I suppose.

How effective will this £5m be against the millions being put in by other owners or the parachute payments of over £20m a season relegated clubs will get? Yes we have a good manager but even independent experts have looked at our situation and said it would be difficult for us to be competitive in the Championship. What you are suggesting is basically Richardson's have a punt plan. Spend more than we have in the hope it brings a bigger pay day in the future.

Chipfat · Aug 12, 2015

Not Swansea, West Brom or Stoke had owners that came in and said right here is millions now get on with it. All them clubs now have a very good facilities, very good scouting networks and a plan that allows fans to understand the goal of the club.. This is not just about money its about a plan to succeed off the field with what you have at the time,, TM is doing this,, being patient, looking at the training ground, factilities on offer, youth structure, scouting systems and even down to decor..

He knows how to build, he knows we can't offer what is not there, i hope he wins every game and we produce a team that fights at the top... But let be honest ,, he laid the rules, he said unless i get this i will not sign,, he told the owners how the club needs to be ran and was never afraid to say you have done this wrong... We as fans now have to understand the owners of this club do not, have not or will not run this properly( with a Plan) they have failed..

torchomatic · Aug 12, 2015

Are they? Who are the fans who are "happy" in League One then?

letsallsingtogether said:
The thing that's get me is that some of or fans are happy to stay in this shit league.

Chipfat · Aug 12, 2015

Gren,, the comment about struggling in Championship!!!

If you do not plan you will struggle,,, if you dont believe ask TF , JS and SW.. They did not have any plan other than spend,, promotion to prem and buy the ricoh and sell the club as a whole.... That is my problem and why i disagree with you on this,, we have never planned and until TM walked into the London office and said give me this and do that have we have ever looked like we know what we are doing and going as a club.. Saturday was the first time i heard about positives off the field, Game day experience and young gifted players being allowed to play.. No plan means failure and we are a club that is one of a small few that shows this so vivdly ,, top 10 worst ran club in the country!!! not wrong... Off field is rotten on field will be the same..

torchomatic · Aug 12, 2015

Absolutely, that hits the nail on the head and the main reason our club is so hamstrung.

chiefdave said:
Bournemouth pay less than £400K a year and get all revenues from the stadium. They have also said if the owner refuses to sell the stadium to them at a fair price, I believe they bid under £5m, they would look to move elsewhere as renting the ground is not a workable long term plan.

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Aug 12, 2015

Championship football is a money drain, ideally you'd jump through from L1 to premier league quickly in the way Southampton, Norwich and Bournemouth did.

Clubs like Blackburn, Bolton, QPR and Cardiff are racking up massive debts in the championship as were Leicester until they made it.

stupot07 · Aug 12, 2015

West brom are a bad example, they got promoted before the big wage boom, then yo-yo'd for a bit. I seem to remember Stoke splashing a lot on wages, I'm sure they paid £500k loan fee and paid Ameobi's £30k pw wages that seasonz

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SkyBlue_Bear83 · Aug 12, 2015

The club need to get in a position where they can be self sustainable in the championship, then we just wait for a fluke season.

With a good manager, good recruitment and a good academy I think we could outperform our budget to compete in the championship regularly. It's a very fragile model though

stupot07 · Aug 12, 2015

CCFC said:
Championship football is a money drain, ideally you'd jump through from L1 to premier league quickly in the way Southampton, Norwich and Bournemouth did.

Clubs like Blackburn, Bolton, QPR and Cardiff are racking up massive debts in the championship as were Leicester until they made it.

Southampton's wage bill was £29m that season.

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SkyBlue_Bear83 · Aug 12, 2015

stupot07 said:
West brom are a bad example, they got promoted before the big wage boom, then yo-yo'd for a bit. I seem to remember Stoke splashing a lot on wages, I'm sure they paid £500k loan fee and paid Ameobi's £30k pw wages that seasonz

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I'm not sure how much Crystal Palace and Burnley spend during there promotion campaigns but I'm thinking there the sort of clubs we should be looking to replicate. Ipswich is another decent example although they just missed out last season.

Grendel · Aug 12, 2015

stupot07 said:
West brom are a bad example, they got promoted before the big wage boom, then yo-yo'd for a bit. I seem to remember Stoke splashing a lot on wages, I'm sure they paid £500k loan fee and paid Ameobi's £30k pw wages that seasonz

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Stoke invested massively in loans to get promoted didn't they? Wasn't there the Czech guy from Villa and Lee Hendrie as well?

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