Why 433 won't work for us in its current form (1 Viewer)

Evo1883 · Aug 13, 2019

433 is a great formation if played correctly, it requires Alot of work from the fullbacks in attack (see Liverpool) and Alot of work from the midfield in defence, City are playing the system wrong.
At the moment we are too wide upfront, almost blocking any advanced movement from the fullbacks and attacking with 3, when in reality the formation should be fully loaded up top...you should in theory be attacking with between 5 and 7 players and like Liverpool, the goals would flow...

For one our wide men are too wide in attack, once in the final 3rd they need to be acting as a forward in essence and let the fullbacks take over creating many different passes into midfield and the front 3 in and around the box.. It also stops teams being able to get out especially if your players close down fast and it's easy to keep the ball in the final 3rd and recycle play without going all the way back to the keeper ... MR is playing 433 far too negatively imo

Picture below shows a model similar to how Liverpool attack using the same formation, tell me how any team would struggle to create

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Nick · Aug 13, 2019

Yep, the striker is far too isolated on his own most of the time with nobody around him.

The runs from the wide 2 are on the byline a lot of the time which means there's only 1 striker in the box.

cc84cov · Aug 13, 2019

Nick said:
Yep, the striker is far too isolated on his own most of the time with nobody around him.

The runs from the wide 2 are on the byline a lot of the time which means there's only 1 striker in the box.

Yep spot on they need to become inside forwards not wingers & full backs need to bomb on which they both look capable of,sometimes I think do managers fully understand the system they have chose.

fatso · Aug 13, 2019

Yep, only 1 striker in the box, and little to no creativity in midfield, no natural ball carrier, and two very inexperienced full backs.
Also we have players who's second touch is usually a tackle, (hiwula, baka)
And a couple who dont tackle (shipley Westbrook)
So with that in mind, 4 points from 6 is probably not too bad, and some quality players yet to feature!

Evo1883 · Aug 13, 2019

It's easy for a centre half 2 to deal with a lone striker

It's Alot harder for a back 4 to deal with fullbacks, 2 inside forwards and a striker..

Winny the Bish · Aug 13, 2019

This was so apparent in the Southend game as well. Look at the graphic, it shows the triangles that a 4-3-3 can create in attack and the overloads it can provide if positioning is correct and done rightly, like MCFC and Liverpool.

But Robins has always been reluctant to let his full-backs really bomb on, Hiwula goes missing too much, Baka isn't good enough with the ball at his feet, and Jobello's only message from MR has seemingly been to get to the byline.

shmmeee · Aug 13, 2019

It’s basically 343 when attacking with Kelly dropping deep.

I think we’ll see it improve as players get used to it. No reason we couldn’t play it with this squad assuming Dabo gets a bit more adventurous

Evo1883 · Aug 13, 2019

Robins has to have a bit more faith in his players and allow them more freedom too.. We have the players to play this... So he needs to play it

Sky Blue Harry H · Aug 13, 2019

Think it will be more effective when Allen comes in, as he is more effective at threading incisive passes.

Briles · Aug 13, 2019

I think 433 will work for us if we are able to drag the oppositions CM out wide more often by doubling up out wide. That frees up space for our own CM to play through balls. Its working fine on the left with Mason, but Dabo needs to start overlapping more.

edgy · Aug 13, 2019

skyblue93 said:
This was so apparent in the Southend game as well. Look at the graphic, it shows the triangles that a 4-3-3 can create in attack and the overloads it can provide if positioning is correct and done rightly, like MCFC and Liverpool.

But Robins has always been reluctant to let his full-backs really bomb on, Hiwula goes missing too much, Baka isn't good enough with the ball at his feet, and Jobello's only message from MR has seemingly been to get to the byline.

Not sure I agree with this bit. Jobello likes to (or has been told to), get very early crosses in. Usually within 2 touches, he is curling a ball in to the box behind the defenders On first impression it looks like he has some good deliveries in his locker from this position. It's a very useful ball, as it turns the defender to face their own goal. I personally think Godden will thrive of Jobello's crossing soon.

Nick · Aug 13, 2019

edgy said:
Not sure I agree with this bit. Jobello likes to (or has been told to), get very early crosses in. Usually within 2 touches, he is curling a ball in to the box behind the defenders On first impression it looks like he has some good deliveries in his locker from this position. It's a very useful ball, as it turns the defender to face their own goal. I personally think Godden will thrive of Jobello's crossing soon.

Yeah like the one at the weekend. We also need the other winger / attacker to be attacking from the other side in case the striker doesn't get onto it.

edgy · Aug 13, 2019

Nick said:
Yeah like the one at the weekend. We also need the other winger / attacker to be attacking from the other side in case the striker doesn't get onto it.

Exactly. Like Jobello did for his goal. We have to have better than Hiwula on the left.

shmmeee · Aug 13, 2019

edgy said:
Exactly. Like Jobello did for his goal. We have to have better than Hiwula on the left.

You’d think as a striker by trade that sort of position would be Jordys bread and butter.

Nick · Aug 13, 2019

shmmeee said:
You’d think as a striker by trade that sort of position would be Jordys bread and butter.

I think he struggles because he can't play with his back to goal. Jobello seems to be able to get the ball and turn a defender and run but it's not something Hiwula does that much.

He needs to be played in and then be facing the goal to go towards it.

Jcap · Aug 13, 2019

Nick said:
Yep, the striker is far too isolated on his own most of the time with nobody around him.

The runs from the wide 2 are on the byline a lot of the time which means there's only 1 striker in the box.

I think you mention it already but the player on the opposite side should be tucking in to effectively make a front 2 to aim at for crosses, one near, one far post. That seems to be the bit which isn't happening, except for the one time it did work Saturday and then Godden took it off Jobello's head!

CCFC54321 · Aug 13, 2019

Everyone I’ve spoken to at work says the same thing. 4-3-3 doesn’t work with the current players at the club.

cc84cov · Aug 13, 2019

Hiwula should naturally be cutting in being a forward by trade Jobello seems a out and out winger will need to be told to drive in field the wide players need to be clever & cute enough to make the 433 work I’m not sure they are.

mark82 · Aug 13, 2019

Nick said:
I think he struggles because he can't play with his back to goal. Jobello seems to be able to get the ball and turn a defender and run but it's not something Hiwula does that much.

He needs to be played in and then be facing the goal to go towards it.

Suspect once Kastaneer is back he'll be first choice. Seems more of a similar style to Jobello.

PVA · Aug 13, 2019

I'm not sure what your point is, we do attack like the graphic in the OP. The full backs do attack, Dabo and Mason got forward plenty on Saturday.

The problem was not with the full backs or the wingers, but with the midfielders. One of them needs to bomb on more and presumably that will be Allen when he's fit.

Gazolba · Aug 13, 2019

Evo1883 said:
<snip>

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It's Mc not MacFadzean. Please let's try to spell our player's names right.

Mucca Mad Boys · Aug 13, 2019

We’ve had 2 games, can we please reserve judgement?

cc84cov · Aug 13, 2019

Mucca Mad Boys said:
We’ve had 2 games, can we please reserve judgement?

Sorry we don’t do that here mate

Mucca Mad Boys · Aug 13, 2019

cc84cov said:
Sorry we don’t do that here mate

Our fan base does love a good moan

shmmeee · Aug 13, 2019

This thread aged well

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Aug 13, 2019

I think as well as having the other two up front as inside forwards with the full backs going down the wings, you can also mix it up by having them go wide and getting a centre midfield getting forward into the area.

That makes it difficult to defend against because are the 'outer' fowards going to come into the centre and be covered by the CB's, or out wide and be the responsibility of the full-backs? If you know they're always coming inside you can pretty much just tell your CB's or a deeper CM to cover them and they know what they're doing.

mark_ccfc · Aug 14, 2019

Tell Exeter that....

Evo1883 · Aug 14, 2019

shmmeee said:
This thread aged well

To be fair, we played how it should be played for large parts of the first half, this is why Hiwula scored 2 as he adopted an inside forward position for both his goals... went back to not playing it properly second half... Although I will say I can't judge the second half too much as we probably took the foot off

CCFC88 · Aug 14, 2019

edgy said:
Exactly. Like Jobello did for his goal. We have to have better than Hiwula on the left.

And Hiwula did for Baka's goal?

CCFC88 · Aug 14, 2019

Jcap said:
I think you mention it already but the player on the opposite side should be tucking in to effectively make a front 2 to aim at for crosses, one near, one far post. That seems to be the bit which isn't happening, except for the one time it did work Saturday and then Godden took it off Jobello's head!

And with Hiwula for Baka's disallowed goal, and also Jobello for his disallowed goal, but apart from that it doesn't seem to be happening?

edgy · Aug 14, 2019

CCFC88 said:
And Hiwula did for Baka's goal?

And fucked it up, yeah.

HuckerbyDublinWhelan · Aug 14, 2019

Playing devils advocate the results are
P3 W2 D1 L0 F5 A1 - not working too badly

cc84cov · Aug 14, 2019

HuckerbyDublinWhelan said:
Playing devils advocate the results are
P3 W2 D1 L0 F5 A1 - not working too badly

We’ve played Southend who stayed up in the last min last season Bolton’s kids & league 2 Exeter let’s see how it fairs against the better sides in the division.

Tomh111 · Aug 14, 2019

Evo1883 said:
433 is a great formation if played correctly, it requires Alot of work from the fullbacks in attack (see Liverpool) and Alot of work from the midfield in defence, City are playing the system wrong.
At the moment we are too wide upfront, almost blocking any advanced movement from the fullbacks and attacking with 3, when in reality the formation should be fully loaded up top...you should in theory be attacking with between 5 and 7 players and like Liverpool, the goals would flow...

For one our wide men are too wide in attack, once in the final 3rd they need to be acting as a forward in essence and let the fullbacks take over creating many different passes into midfield and the front 3 in and around the box.. It also stops teams being able to get out especially if your players close down fast and it's easy to keep the ball in the final 3rd and recycle play without going all the way back to the keeper ... MR is playing 433 far too negatively imo

Picture below shows a model similar to how Liverpool attack using the same formation, tell me how any team would struggle to create

Sent from my EML-L09 using Tapatalk

Nothing you have written is correct.

I'm not even convinced we are playing 433.

Liverpool work because they have no strikers, its 3 CAMs - backed up by hard working central midfielders and with width provided by the wing backs.

We dont necessarily need the wingers to come in, if the central midfielders get into the box. Which I'd suggest is what Allen was bought in to do and what Shipley will be asked to do.

This then leaves Kelly to drop back and gives us a pivot point, from which he can push the ball around.

The full backs then can come higher up the pitch and tuck inside the wingers or put balls into the box from deep.

This would give us 5 attackers in the final third, 7 if you count fullbacks.

There are a multitude of ways of skinning a cat and Mark Robin's has a perfectly good way of looking to do it.

Liverpool also play a very high press and a Klopp style Gegenpress - this is something we are simply not good enough to do.

This means we can't push our full backs as high as liverpool, if you want to use them as an example.

We also dont have the quality in attacking midfielders to play a false 9 like firmino or play the intricate 2 touch football in the box that liverpool do.

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fernandopartridge · Aug 14, 2019

skyblue93 said:
This was so apparent in the Southend game as well. Look at the graphic, it shows the triangles that a 4-3-3 can create in attack and the overloads it can provide if positioning is correct and done rightly, like MCFC and Liverpool.

But Robins has always been reluctant to let his full-backs really bomb on, Hiwula goes missing too much, Baka isn't good enough with the ball at his feet, and Jobello's only message from MR has seemingly been to get to the byline.

In his first spell here he let the full backs get forward pretty well, remember Christie and Blair Adams both doing it

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